Joined the club

[VEGASRIDER]

Remember, locking up either brake is not good on a motorcycle. Front will usually result in a lowside. That's why you need to practice your quick stops regularly. If your rear brake locks up, you can release and reapply if your bike is aligned correctly. Keeping the rear locked is going to add more stopping distance versus releasing and reapplying (without locking).

 

[beatle]

Maybe that's the key, "if your bike is aligned correctly." I'd heard to hold the rear brake if you lock it up, as it will want to realign with the front if you release, and that could send you into a highside. This isn't the first time I've locked up the rear tire in a panic stop, but it's the first time it tossed me off.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Maybe that's the key, "if your bike is aligned correctly." I'd heard to hold the rear brake if you lock it up, as it will want to realign with the front if you release, and that could send you into a highside. This isn't the first time I've locked up the rear tire in a panic stop, but it's the first time it tossed me off.

Yes, releasing the rear brake while your rear tire is not aligned with the front will result in a high side. But in the event you lock up your rear brake and still aligned in a relatively straight position, release and reapplying your rear brake correctly will result in a shorter stopping distance versus just keeping it locked. You can try it yourself out in an open parking lot. Try it both ways, using the same start point at the same speed say 25 or 30 mph, using the rear brake only. You will discover that your stopping distance was reduced by releasing and reapplying the rear brake versus just keeping it locked.

This technique was not in your MSF curriculum nor did you ever practice this out on the range. The MSF BRC teaches you the basic minimum skills to operate a motorcycle to a point that you can earn your M endorsement. To minimize risk, it's just best to tell all of the riders to keep it locked. We already see enough crashes during the braking exercise. We all hope that every rider continues to become a better rider by taking an advanced class that leads into more technical skills such as trail braking or by practicing using the correct technique.

 

[Judd]

Glad it was a minor incident Beatle - no serious injuries and we rode home. We can all benefit from better skills and improved technique and this was a good reminder to make time for practice.

I am no expert and am sure many others can outride me, but I have ridden 60k+ miles on several different machines over the past 14 years so I have some experience. I had even been on that same section of Wolfsville Rd twice before but never in the direction we we traveling. That said, that stop/intersection seemed to come up real quick on me too and I went into full panic braking mode.

Here is what I did for what it's worth:

- stood the bike upright
- pulled in the clutch (and held it until stopped) and kicked down a couple gears (to 2nd I think)
- full, hard braking front and rear
- when the rear locked and started to slide i focused on keeping the rear tire under me
- when the bike straightened out a bit I released the rear brake and reapplied it (think I actually did this twice in quick succession hoping to unlock the rear and that seemed to work)

Of course this all happened in two seconds and as others have said was muscle memory versus any plan or strategy on my part.

We all know the majority of our stopping power is up front but I still use a fair amount of rear brake in many braking situations. What I learned yesterday is that I need to trust the front more and not stomp on the rear brake in a panic stop...so that is what I will be working on.

 

[Wildcat_drvr]

^What FI said about the rear brake lever.
I would lock up the rear wheel all to often.
Went down about three splines IIRC.
Practice your panic stops in a big parking lot.
Don't want ya hit in the wazoo on the street.
Practice,pratice,practice!
Been ridin over 50 years,
Still practice in a lot every couple of weeks.

Rich

 

[MG-242]

Good braking technique takes practice. Overuse of the rear is one of the most common errors and can result in a crash. That is why you have to practice. I still do it everyday every single time I ride.

Again, focus on the front brake as it provides the most stopping power. Rear brake application needs to be light. Light to the point of lock-up, but short of a lock-up for maximum stopping power. Once the wheel locks up, your stopping distance is extended. As the weight transfers to the front wheel, a lighter application of the rear is required! You can regain traction on the rear by letting off the brake and then re-applying, but only if it is close to being in line with the front. On a high traction surface (asphalt) the rear is going to want to violently jump back in line with the front, its happy place. This is where the high side occurs. As VR noted, a locked front will most likely result in a low side if not immediately released when locked.

One other tip that hasn't been mentioned is to press your knees into the tank to prevent your weight going to the front. The tank has indentations just for this purpose.

As far as downshifting, if you're coming to a stop, you're best to keep the clutch in as you downshift to first. Letting the clutch out and getting lots of engine braking is another variable that is difficult to manage (for my small brain ) and will often result in a rear wheel skid. Now you're in first gear and ready to bug-out in case the cager behind you can't get stopped. Check your mirrors for that.

After that, Enjoy the Ride :thumbup:

 

[beatle]

I find the use of engine braking during a panic stop to be interesting. When performing a panic stop in the MSF class, they had you clutch in and drop to first. Downshifting and clutching out seems like it would upset the balance of the bike since you're obviously not going to be rev matching on the downshift. I know that when using maximum braking in a car, you want to rev match to keep from upsetting the balance on the car, especially if you're trailbraking.

Since engine braking is essentially just rear brake, what is the purpose in a panic stop if you can simply apply a touch of rear brake via the caliper?

 

[agf]

a few years back i wore the rear pads on my vtr 250 to nothing, but still needed the transport. I realised then that I used the rear way too much in the greater scheme of things, so I went about re-training
started by keeping my foot off the peg so nowhere near the brake, and this works for a bit but not for the long run.
next I moved the lever down a few splines, this is by far the best long term habit breaker. when you do it you realise how strong that habit has been.

the 3rd pot hole emergency break practice is a good habit when no-one is on yr tail,
picking two spots like drain covers to swerve between, like your own personal slalom is good for weight distribution and knowing you can move the bike where you want it to go, if you hit them then you know to keep practicing,
setting up your corner lines slowly, to learn to take them fast when you can see thru the corner, I know two corners near home I could take at only 30 km/hour for years, until I started to go in wider, lean more, with no brakes and work on being in the the right gear everytime and power out. Now I do them at 38-42km/h, I know thats not a big gain,but these are corners you cant see thru going faster and they are suburban side streets with kids and buses and parked cars, not a track and besides its only 30 seconds from home----all of this stuff is great theory and thats all it will ever be if you don't put it into practice

 

[MG-242]

I run the Galfer rear rotor on my track bike. It has very little surface area and I don't think I could lock it up if I had to.

Good advice on dropping a few splines on the lever if that helps.

 

[Erci]

I find the use of engine braking during a panic stop to be interesting. When performing a panic stop in the MSF class, they had you clutch in and drop to first. Downshifting and clutching out seems like it would upset the balance of the bike since you're obviously not going to be rev matching on the downshift. I know that when using maximum braking in a car, you want to rev match to keep from upsetting the balance on the car, especially if you're trailbraking.

Since engine braking is essentially just rear brake, what is the purpose in a panic stop if you can simply apply a touch of rear brake via the caliper?

Just a bad idea, plain and simple. If you want any stopping power from the rear in an emergency situation, use the brake. As Mike mentioned, managing engine braking while doing this is extremely difficult and unnecessary. The goal is to end up in a gear which will let you get away quickly after completing the stop, but there's no need to clutch out until you need to accelerate.

Look up some videos on quick stops using both brakes vs front brake. And as I mentioned before, try it yourself. Yes, if you are absolutely perfect and can execute maximum front + rear brake emergency stop, more power to you.. obviously it'll yield the shortest stopping distance (by few feet vs front only).

Quick stop without rear brake guarantees several things:
1. No fishtailing.
2. No highsiding.
3. No finesse required to modulate rear brake.. it's very easy to progressively squeeze the front, but modulating the rear at the same time is infinitely harder and again from my tests shortens stopping distances ever so slightly.

I am not telling you (or anyone else) that front-only is the only right way to do this. I am asking you to try it.. especially since you've just crashed .. and if your rear wheel didn't lock up, maybe the crash would not have happened. Also keep in mind that a spinning rear wheel with clutch squeezed in and with zero brake application provides more drag than a locked up rear wheel.. it also provides a lot of stability (gyro).

Personally, I've switched to front-only many years ago and it's what I practice every time I ride. I use rear brake all the time, but only for control (u-turns, slow stops, stop-n-go traffic, etc).

I very rarely find myself needing to perform an actual emergency stop, but the few times I've had to do it, using front-only, there was zero drama.

Oh and one more thing to add to Mike's excellent suggestion of squeezing the tank with your knees when stopping quickly: when you practice this, pay attention to how much pressure you're putting on the handlebar with your hands. If you're gripping the tank right, you should be able to just squeeze the clutch and front brake, but not need to really lock the handlebar or push against it all that hard. Ideally, you want it to still be able to correct itself even under heavy braking.

 

[beatle]

I'll give the idea of squeezing the tank a try as well. I've read that it's a good practice to push your outside knee into the tank in a corner to help stabilize you. It sounds like the same principle stands for braking and keeping some weight off the handlebar. More stuff to try.

I've truly had no faith in the front brake. Maybe I thought the rear end would come up, or I'd lock the front and twist the handlebar, tossing me off. It sounds like these are pretty unlikely scenarios though. I'll also likely try rotating the rear brake lever down to see what happens. Is the idea that it reduces the amount of rear brake you're able to apply?

 

[MG-242]

I'll also likely try rotating the rear brake lever down to see what happens. Is the idea that it reduces the amount of rear brake you're able to apply?

Yes, due to the increased reach and the angle. But, you need to be proficient in the use of the front. Again, that is where the bulk of your stopping power is and should be your primary focus.

Just for fun and this is related to performance track riding 30 yrs ago - I think Keith Code mentioned in one of his books about one of the pro's at the time (Wes Cooley maybe?) cutting his rear brake lever off. And then, he went on to say that you'd be better off by applying the choke than using the rear brake Things have changed some, but if you watch a lot of the pro racers, many do not touch the rear. Some do. It takes lots of practice to perfect.

 

[Erci]

I'll also likely try rotating the rear brake lever down to see what happens. Is the idea that it reduces the amount of rear brake you're able to apply?

Kind of, yes. If the lever is relatively high up, think about what happens when you brake hard. Weight naturally moves forward and both of your toes likely move down, without you realizing.. especially if you're not gripping the tank with your knees. By lowering brake lever, you (hopefully) prevent accidental input.

And you absolutely must learn to use the front brake fully, no matter what you do with the rear. It can easily do 100% stopping on FZ6 (rear wheel off the ground). Not using enough front will very likely force you to use too much rear in an emergency which will cause a lock-up.

Remember, when traction is good and you apply the front properly, you're transferring much or all of the load to the front. Front patch (the part of tire touching the ground) keeps growing as the tire gets squished.. and the rear patch gets smaller .. or disappears all together (if the rear wheel is off the ground).

The larger the front patch, the harder you can apply the front brake.. this is why it needs to be applied progressively. Trust physics :thumbup:

 

[Erci]

Yes, due to the increased reach and the angle. But, you need to be proficient in the use of the front. Again, that is where the bulk of your stopping power is and should be your primary focus.

Just for fun and this is related to performance track riding 30 yrs ago - I think Keith Code mentioned in one of his books about one of the pro's at the time (Wes Cooley maybe?) cutting his rear brake lever off. And then, he went on to say that you'd be better off by applying the choke than using the rear brake Things have changed some, but if you watch a lot of the pro racers, many do not touch the rear. Some do. It takes lots of practice to perfect.

You beat me to it! While track riding is different from street in many ways, the application of brake after a long straight is very similar to an emergency stop. The only difference is you don't come to a full stop, but if you wanted to you'd continue applying the brake exactly the same way instead of trailing off as you spot your turn-in and initiate the lean.

Rear wheel is often off the ground. Think about that.

 

[beatle]

Trust physics :thumbup:

Agreed. It's just something baked into me right now that I'll be unlearning. A lot of the control principles apply to a car as well where I'm pretty comfortable at the limit.

I know in the wet, with an adjustable proportioning valve you can actually dial in a bit MORE rear brake than in the dry as there is less weight transfer to the front. Or if you're on an especially grippy surface like concrete, you can use a bit more front brake. This is much easier to do with a knob coming out of the proportioning valve than my brain, of course.

 

[Erci]

Agreed. It's just something baked into me right now that I'll be unlearning. A lot of the control principles apply to a car as well where I'm pretty comfortable at the limit.

I know in the wet, with an adjustable proportioning valve you can actually dial in a bit MORE rear brake than in the dry as there is less weight transfer to the front. Or if you're on an especially grippy surface like concrete, you can use a bit more front brake. This is much easier to do with a knob coming out of the proportioning valve than my brain, of course.

Exactly! Same applies to the bike. Obviously don't want to use the front quite as hard when traction is less than ideal, so there's not as much transfer to the front.. meaning rear patch is not quite as small.. meaning more rear brake can be used.
Of course, you better adjust everything else in the rain.. space cushion.. lean angles, etc. If you're doing it right, there should be very little chance of you needing to execute an emergency stop. :thumbup: