Illinois considers new M/C license requirements

[2nd childhood]

I understand (and agree with) their intent, but I'm not so sure they're going about it the right way. Thoughts?

Illinois rethinks licenses for big motorcycles - chicagotribune.com

 

[FIZZER6]

Can you quote the article in a post? It won't let the rest of us view that who aren't members. :spank:

 

[pookamatic]

Forcing the student to take the course on their own, larger bike is the wrong way. Providing one would be prohibitively expensive, unless the course carried huge fees and insurance.

I would be for getting a junior license that limits the bike somehow (power, size), or has other limitations (time of day, no violations) for a period of time.

 

[pookamatic]

Here is the article text.

By Robert McCoppin, Tribune reporter
July 28, 2014

After graduating from Illinois' motorcycle safety class, instructors say, some students rush out and buy a monster racing bike that can go 140 mph — and they can't handle it.

"Motorcycles keep getting bigger," said Scott Mochinski, a safety class administrator. "They're higher-risk, much heavier, and more powerful. … If you've never ridden and you're bringing in a big heavy motorcycle, it's very difficult."

Yet to get a motorcycle classification on a driver's license in Illinois, students don't have to use one of the bigger bikes to take the driving test. They can test on a smaller motorcycle, then go out and ride whatever they want.

That might not always be the case, as the state contemplates the creation of a new class of motorcycle license.

Instead of offering licenses in just two size classes — one for cycles with an engine displacement of less than 150 cubic centimeters, like off-road bikes and scooters, and another for all other sizes — Illinois would add a third category for the bigger motorcycles, possibly starting at about 600 cc. And drivers would have to test on the size bike they intend to ride.

"It's in the talking stage," secretary of state spokesman David Druker said. "It's something we're reviewing seriously."

The proposal comes as motorcycle fatalities in Illinois have hovered near historic high levels for the past three years, and rose slightly last year despite a rare nationwide decrease.

But as state lawmakers and biker groups continue to resist a mandatory helmet law — Illinois is among just three states without one — safety advocates and regulators are looking to other ways to reduce the death count.

Mochinski, for one, supports the idea of requiring those who want to ride bigger bikes to hold a special license. He worries, though, about the expenses involved in offering the state-sponsored safety classes on such cycles.

Mochinski is one of the instructors of the free safety courses that IDOT offers around the state — a program with a $5 million budget paid for through motorcycle registration fees. Those courses typically use 200 or 250 cc bikes, because they're easier and safer for beginners to handle and typically cost thousands of dollars less than larger models.

The state also offers an advanced course for bigger motorcycles, but beginning students rarely take it, Mochinski said.

Illinois officials are looking to other states for guidance. Utah, for instance, divides motorcyclists into four classes, depending on the size the driver tests on. Those who test on a larger bike may ride any size.

But such restrictions appear to be the exception, judging by state listings by the AAA motor club.

The motorcycle riders group ABATE of Illinois opposes a new license classification. President Bruce Liebe said the proposal sounds sensible, but motorcycles have many variables other than engine size that affect their handling, such as weight and design. A sport bike can easily outperform a touring bike that's twice the size, which he said could render engine size comparisons "useless."

Motorcycle deaths in Illinois actually dropped slightly, from 50 last year to 40 this year, through July 3, according to the state's count. The main reason for that, advocates say, is the weather, as an exceptionally rainy June probably kept many riders off the roads. Since that date, several more deadly crashes have been reported around the state, including one that killed an off-duty Chicago police officer July 20 on the Dan Ryan Expressway.

And while overall automobile crash deaths nationally have plummeted in the past two decades — experts credit that largely to more seat belt use, air bags and stricter drunken driving laws — the number of motorcycle deaths annually more than doubled from 2000 to 2009, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Safety advocates blame not only bigger, faster bikes, including "super sport" bikes popular with younger riders, but an increase in middle-aged drivers returning to bikes after years away or trying them for the first time.

The age group with the most motorcycle-related deaths in Illinois in 2012, the most recent year reported by the state, was 50 to 54; it had 23 deaths.

"We call them returning riders," said Terry Redman, a state motorcycle safety instructor who counts himself as one of the group, having taken years off from riding to get married and raise a child. "They go out and buy the biggest bike they can get their hands on. The bikes weigh a lot more, their strength isn't there, and we hate to admit it, but our reflexes are slower. Unfortunately, it's a fast-growing fatality group."

Liebe, the ABATE leader, said older, returning riders have an experience gap. "They're frankly some of the worst riders because they've been away so long, and they're going like they did when they were 21."

Motorcyclists blame automobile drivers for many of the crashes, calling them "cagers" because they drive in a cage that creates blind spots and restricts their awareness. But Illinois State Police Maj. Brad Carnduff reported that about two-thirds of fatal car-motorcycle crashes in the past two years were caused by the motorcyclist.

Whoever is at fault in a crash, though, one common feature among the vast majority of bikers killed in Illinois in 2012 is that they weren't wearing helmets. That was the case in 78 percent of deadly crashes that year, according to state figures.

States that don't require helmets, or require them only for some riders, had 10 times as many deaths overall in 2012 as states that require all riders and passengers to wear helmets, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Since Congress stopped tying federal funding to helmet laws in the 1990s, seven states have changed their universal helmet laws to partial laws that generally apply only to those below a certain age. Studies in two of those states, Florida and Michigan, showed deaths and injuries increased substantially after the laws were changed.

But motorcycle rider groups question the accuracy of such studies, saying there are too many variables to read much into short-term fluctuations. They continue to try to overturn helmet laws.

"We're not anti-helmet, we're anti-helmet laws," Liebe said. "I wear a helmet all the time. But we stand for freedom of choice."

Despite an increase in motorcycle fatalities in Illinois in the past three years, Liebe pointed out that the number of registered bikes has increased 37 percent, to almost 361,000 over the past decade, so the death rate per registration is decreasing.

Biker groups argue that helmets can decrease awareness and that many deaths may be caused by injuries to other parts of the body. They prefer to focus safety efforts in other areas, like increased training, campaigns against drinking and driving, and getting drivers of cars and trucks to look out for bikers.

One other gap in safety they'd like to close is the number of unlicensed motorcycle drivers, which made up 11 percent of those killed in Illinois in 2012.

A small sampling of students at a recent motorcycle safety class at Harper College in Palatine found opinions decidedly against the separate license classification.

"Because if they can't handle a big bike, they will know right away when they sit on it," said Izabela Zacaria, a martial arts instructor from Bartlett. She was learning to drive a bike so she could ride with her husband. "If they can't keep it from falling, I'm sure they would not ride it."

Sean York, a 24-year-old pizza delivery driver from Elk Grove Village, said big and small bikes share the most important features.

"They're all the same, they clutch the same, shift the same," he said. "You should be able to pick up your bike if you drop it. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be riding that bike in the first place."

Still, sometimes all the training, licensing and helmet laws in the world can't prevent an accident.

Patricia Thies, a bus driver from Vernon Hills, said she was on her Honda on a misty day in August two years ago when the car in front of her slowed suddenly. She hit the brakes but said her wheels slid out and she fell to the road, sliding along face down with the bike on top of her leg.

She came to a stop and miraculously walked away with only a scratch and bruises and a possible concussion. She credits her survival to wearing protective gear including a helmet, boots, jeans and padded riding jacket.

Thies rides a larger bike — about 900 cc — but said large bikes vary greatly, so she prefers motorcycle safety training for all drivers, rather than a new license classification.

"I've seen petite women handling (big) bikes wonderfully, then taller people with a lot of muscle can't," she said. "Not everybody's got the skill. Get people into classes and trained better."

Freelance reporter Jamie Greco contributed.

 

[Erci]

Yeah, the idea is flawed. We have tier licensing in NJ, which isn't all that great. About the only thing it put a stop to was folks taking their tests on scooters.

As mentioned in the article, motorcycle type may have more to do with death rate than the engine size.

We need to take lessons from some European countries when it comes to licensing.. bikes and cars.

 

[FIZZER6]

As mentioned in the article, motorcycle type may have more to do with death rate than the engine size.

THIS! They have been going by displacement for insurance purposes forever. Bike type and age of rider have everything to do with the likely hood of a fatal accident. A 600CC supersport will do 160 mph while a 750 cc V-twin cruiser can barely hit 100 mph.

I've only met a few guys under the age of 25 who were safe, responsible riders on a sport bike. Restricting new, especially new, young riders to less powerful bikes for a period of time, say 2-3 years would be a reasonable step. Lack of riding experience does not mix with egos that are bigger than brains.

 

[2nd childhood]

THIS! They have been going by displacement for insurance purposes forever. Bike type and age of rider have everything to do with the likely hood of a fatal accident. A 600CC supersport will do 160 mph while a 750 cc V-twin cruiser can barely hit 100 mph.

I agree, horsepower rather than displacement should be used as a criteria. My Yamaha VStar 650 had 57 LESS horsepower than my FZ6.

 

[Motogiro]

Wow! Lawmakers are going to decide on possible tiered licensing based on how long your legs are and how heavy the bike is? No.... wait a minute...How big the bike is? No...No.... Wait.....They don't have to have a helmet law which has statistically proved an increase in the death rate when they removed the requirement for motorcyclists to wear one!?

When someone is going to talk about the actual welfare of people and a scientific discussion on how a rider and motorcycle interact, Then let's have an intelligent conversation. At 50 MPH the size of the bike has very little to do with your safety and mortality. A 250 cc, 600cc, 1300cc or whether the bike is 1200 pounds or 300 pounds has little to do with your ability other than stopped. The concept of wrist to power is simple and if that's not understood then you probably don't understand any written test to begin with. People can cheat on any test and they will lie about their behavior. Give all the education you want and people will die or be injured doing something awesome!

All the education, experience and skills are important but how many times have we seen or heard of catastrophe after the words, "Ya'll watch This!"
If we can help each other be conscious as to how we crash, that includes behavior based on mindset, we may touch on how to make better riders.

Understanding why my speed is greater than my skill set or conditions is the most important understanding I posses.

Bottom line. If I am sitting in a tree eatin a banana, and fall, I'll be better off with a helmet on. I ride my mountain bike with a helmet!

The biggest problem with bike and person size is in a parking lot. After that it's going to be education and a helmet/protective gear.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I find it very odd how ABATE can get the NO helmet laws enacted and as stated above, a helmet will most definitly give the rider a better chance of survival.

I have to wear a seat belt in my cage or GET TICKETED, but I can ride my motorcycle with NO HELMET. WTF???

With that said, IMO, BEFORE trying pass the "staggered drivers licences", they should require helmets. A half one is is still better than nothing...

A slow speed tip over, if you land wrong can kill you. We recently had a "weatherman" on local TV, die, on his BICYCLE, when he hit (I believe a street sign-NOT another vehicle), NO HELMET...

I believe in Europe, (please chime in), they have different levels of licences. than the US.

 

[elus1ve]

Here in Quebec, Canada, we have 3 tiers licenses 1) < 125cc 2) 125-400cc 3) >400cc with each level taking more time and money to get. For example, to get the full 400cc license, it takes at a minimum 1.3 years to get.

To discourage new riders from hopping on a super bike right off the bat, the registration plate of a super bike is twice the price of a 'standard' or cruiser bike. So a 2001 R1 will cost more than $1250/year compared to $600/year for a 2014 Ducati Monster 1200. A list of what the law consider super bike is updated yearly. But generally if the controls are low and the pegs are higher up, they are in the list independently of the engine size. For e.g: R6 and R1 are both on the list, but the FZ1 is not.

It all sounds good but the trouble is that it seems (and it might be intentional) they also want to discourage anyone from getting into motorcycling at all. The message when all those price raise were done is that they want to discourage people from riding due to too many fatalities. We also applied rules that double the penalty of a ticket if you had a motorcycle license, even if you don't ride a motorcycle. For example, if you get a speed ticket while riding, there are certain fees that double because you also have a motorcycle license. In the end, wealthy people will still get their superbikes and they will still get killed. Poor people will not buy a motorcycle and get a cheap car. The ones in the middle will switch from superbikes to standard or cruisers. A few of my friends actually switched to stand bikes due to this. And the non-wealthy are paying more to compensate for the wealthy that just bought a super bike and had an accident. So this is not really working and the laws are being reviewed (apparently).

So it is a complicated issue and I agree, Europe is way ahead on us in many aspects such as motorcycle laws.

 

[yamihoe]

start with a helmet law, making a license tiered and having it take forever to get will just discourage people from riding all together. Here in good old murica' we can get a permit and a full license in 2 days if we want.

 

[dbldutch02]

With that said, IMO, BEFORE trying pass the "staggered drivers licences", they should require helmets. A half one is is still better than nothing...

I believe in Europe, (please chime in), they have different levels of licences. than the US.

As you say, how can you even discuss staggered licences when helmets are not mandatory?? And how on earth can it be right that you attend one day's class, and can then go out and ride ANY bike you like??

I agree that judging purely on engine size is silly, and the whole "noobs and little girls are more likely to drop a big bike" thing is nonsense as it only matters at car park speeds.

For comparison, the European system is roughly as follows (there are variations by country):

Step 1) Compulsory Basic Training - required to take ANY motorised two wheeler on the road. Full days training (roughly 50/50 theory/practice) ending in a supervised road ride. This allows you to ride a motorcycle/scooter, with "L" plates up to 125cc limited to a certain power output (can't remember, but it rules out two-stroke screamers)

Step 2) Motorcycle specific theory test; this comprises two parts, highway code questions and some hazard perception videos (probably easy-peasy for gamers, I struggled).

Step 3) Practical test, module 1. This is slow speed manouvers, plus an emergency stop from speed, and a swerve at speed - I had to do this over, I went too slowly!

Step 4) Practical test, module2. This a road ride of about 45 minutes

Licences are then staggered according to age, with younger riders limited by size/output. You have to do the test (mod1+2) on the category of bike that you want a licence for.

I went through this earlier this year, and the training is truly excellent, the tests genuinely challenging. It is expensive and laborious, which is unfortunately putting a lot of young would-be bikers off, but it does mean that by the time you are solo in traffic on a bike you are genuinely capable of handling it and keeping yourself safe. That seems like a rather good goal to me (6.5k safe miles thusfar).

For those interested, here's the website of the chaps I trained with, good information in the videos on the right: www.biketrainwales.co.uk

 

[ChanceCoats123]

As a 19 year old, new rider in IL, I am ALL for helmet laws. I wear one (as well as other riding gear) whenever I get on my bike.

But I don't necessarily agree with the potential license tiers. Having grown up on mini bikes, dirt bikes, quads and other off-road type vehicles (having 2 or 4 wheels), I felt very at home on my FZ6 from the start. I was never used to taking road turns at speed, and simply took turns more slowly at the beginning. I have since learned how confident the bike can be on all types of surfaces, and I like to think that I know my own limits pretty well (still a bunch to learn though).

I don't think it's really fair to group all riders into a situation where they have to ride a bike which can barely get out of its own way because they are "new" to motorcycles.

I think there are quite a few possible ways to decrease the on-road fatalities on motorcycles, and it starts with helmet laws, and cage driver awareness.

New riders need to understand that bikes are dangerous and aren't something to just go crazy on. That will certainly get you into trouble regardless of the size of the bike that you are on.

On a sadder note, there was a 23 year old who was killed on his motorcycle by a cager who ran a red light today, approximately 30 minutes from my house. It's always sad to see fellow riders go down, and I think it really shows that cage and biker awareness needs to increase when on the road. These days, everyone is in a hurry for something. But that should never out weigh someone's life.

 

[Champ1978]

So motorcycle deaths dropped by 20 percent last year in their state and some lobbyists want to make more motorcycle laws.

Neither of those facts are surprising. Motorcycles are getting safer and more easier to ride every single year and there will always be people trying to legislate hoops around everything so they can make more money.

Last week I was hearing about a new ABS coming out for motorcycles that works while you are leaned over. Imagine being leaned over dragging your elbow and grabbing the front break as hard as you can and bike slows down and holds its line perfectly that reality is coming soon.

I will not be surprised if bikes will be driving themselves in 10 years and riding skill is reduced to sitting on the bike on just holding. Furthermore, I am not going to be shocked when the lobbyists come out legislating requirements for what bike you can hold onto and costly certifications to advance.

 

[pookamatic]

start with a helmet law, making a license tiered and having it take forever to get will just discourage people from riding all together. Here in good old murica' we can get a permit and a full license in 2 days if we want.

I disagree that it will 'just discourage people from riding all together'... it will discourage inexperienced people from riding bikes they can't handle until they've had some real world experience. If you want to ride at all, you need to take a basic skills test. If you want to ride a SS, you simply need to cut your teeth for period of time before doing so. This will prevent accidents and deaths. If a young kid isn't willing to put this relatively small amount of effort into it, they're not going to last long on that shiny new rocket.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I disagree that it will 'just discourage people from riding all together'... it will discourage inexperienced people from riding bikes they can't handle until they've had some real world experience. If you want to ride at all, you need to take a basic skills test. If you want to ride a SS, you simply need to cut your teeth for period of time before doing so. This will prevent accidents and deaths. If a young kid isn't willing to put this relatively small amount of effort into it, they're not going to last long on that shiny new rocket.

While I understand the potential benefits, I think it would impose unnecessary costs on the riders that want to ride a ss bike. My FZ6 is the first bike I've bought. And if I had to buy, register, insure and maintain a different bike for a year before I could buy/ride my FZ6, then I wouldn't be riding. I've got the money to buy and maintain my current bike, but this isn't something I could do back to back years.

 

[Curguy]

While I understand the potential benefits, I think it would impose unnecessary costs on the riders that want to ride a ss bike. My FZ6 is the first bike I've bought. And if I had to buy, register, insure and maintain a different bike for a year before I could buy/ride my FZ6, then I wouldn't be riding. I've got the money to buy and maintain my current bike, but this isn't something I could do back to back years.

it's funny to see what kind of people are on this forum. While we are all thinking about not riding and not being able to afford license and things, nobody said what really would be the problem. People riding bikes without license and without insurance, because it's to expensive, to much time and trouble.
That would be more dangerous for everyone, not only for themselves.

With this I mean...everyone on this forum is thinking safe and responsible. To bad some people out there don't think like this.

 

[pookamatic]

While I understand the potential benefits, I think it would impose unnecessary costs on the riders that want to ride a ss bike. My FZ6 is the first bike I've bought. And if I had to buy, register, insure and maintain a different bike for a year before I could buy/ride my FZ6, then I wouldn't be riding. I've got the money to buy and maintain my current bike, but this isn't something I could do back to back years.

I read your previous post after I submitted mine and understand where you're coming from. You seem like a level-headed person that can handle the responsibility. Unfortunately, you're in the minority.

I would be against inflated registration fees. 250s buy and sell for basically the same price year in and year out after they've hit a certain point. Again - I hear you. Sucks to be grouped in with the masses.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

it's funny to see what kind of people are on this forum. While we are all thinking about not riding and not being able to afford license and things, nobody said what really would be the problem. People riding bikes without license and without insurance, because it's to expensive, to much time and trouble.
That would be more dangerous for everyone, not only for themselves.

With this I mean...everyone on this forum is thinking safe and responsible. To bad some people out there don't think like this.

At first I was ready to get all defensive. And then I realized what you were actually getting at. I think people who consistently ride without insurance on an unregistered bike are crazy... I can understand a quick ride on a new bike, but don't go out commuting and goofing off without insurance or registration.


And to pookamatic, you make a good point. 250's resell pretty well. There won't be much of a cost with that. Registration fees are still there, but it's not as much as I was thinking without the cost from the bike.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Previously posted, I bought my FZ from my then best friend..

He bought it as a FIRST bike for his son, just old enough to take the class and pass. No driving/ riding experiance, just pillion..

He acts mature in front of us, but behind that, different story. Typical 17 year old (this is several years ago)

The bike was laid down THREE TIMEs, on both sides, once learning to do a wheelie ($1,500 in parts and broken wrist), a stopped tip, etc.
I bought the bike for dirt cheap and fixed it...

There are mature folks and not so mature (or lacking common sense)...

He was not obviously very mature, his dad buying that bike as a first bike, IMO, was a big mistake. Maybe a 500 twin tops... It'll do the highest speed limit we have easily but would very difficult to wheelie, get the 10k RPM+ rush of the FZ, etc..

Having a tiered system, IMO, would not be a bad idea. The best way, probably examine how in Europe, Canada, etc are doing it successfully..