I like my FZ6 BUT...

[Rob2222]

@Kriswithak

Unskilled riders, sure. Cause ABS is bad almost 100% of the cars here in Germany have it. You could say the same on car ABS but this is pretty normal here.
I think its just a joke to say, "who needs ABS is unskilled". Thats just people like you that say who rides with ABS is uncool and unskilled. I rode 14 years without ABS, now I have ABS and love this feature.
When you read in motorcycle boards you often can see that even skilled riders over-break theire front wheel in a _emergency_ situation and going down. I am personally convinced that most experienced riders can't fullfill a correct braking maneuver in a emergency situation.

And one more thing is, that ABS has no negative points on the driving style. You can even put a FZ6 ABS on the frontwheel if you want. If you brake that way.

On the other hand, why he should practise his skill (and the ONLY one skill regarding ABS/no-ABS is the skill to match the point just before the front wheel locks) when he never will have this problem with ABS? For sure he must/will ride carefully when he rides a bike without ABS from time to time. The only skill as ABS rider you didn't need to learn is to match the point before the lock.
So what? Your wheels will never lock.
All the other skills are the same for ABS or non-ABS riders.
In a emergency situation I would choose a middle-experienced rider with ABS before a experienced rider without ABS to be the one behind me.

Sorry, but I really can't hear that "who needs ABS is to unexperienced to drive a motorcycle" anymore...
If youre so "skilled" then drive without it. If a emergency situation comes, you will see if you manage it. (it=not to lock the front wheel).
I am happy that I didn't need to manage it anymore. Not on leaves, not on rain, not on a sandy street. Just brake full an cocentrate on the street/on the emergency situation instead of the front wheel.

Just my 2 cents.

BR
Robert

 

[specialk]

thanks for the responses guys. I think I have narrowed it the FJR and the VFR. I just cannot justify the cost of the F800ST.

I am thinking VFR. Can anyone comment on the overheating issues or the valve checks that were mentioned in an earlier post?

 

[Kriswithak]

@Kriswithak

Unskilled riders, sure. Cause ABS is bad almost 100% of the cars here in Germany have it. You could say the same on car ABS but this is pretty normal here.
I think its just a joke to say, "who needs ABS is unskilled". Thats just people like you that say who rides with ABS is uncool and unskilled. I rode 14 years without ABS, now I have ABS and love this feature.
When you read in motorcycle boards you often can see that even skilled riders over-break theire front wheel in a _emergency_ situation and going down. I am personally convinced that most experienced riders can't fullfill a correct braking maneuver in a emergency situation.

And one more thing is, that ABS has no negative points on the driving style. You can even put a FZ6 ABS on the frontwheel if you want. If you brake that way.

On the other hand, why he should practise his skill (and the ONLY one skill regarding ABS/no-ABS is the skill to match the point just before the front wheel locks) when he never will have this problem with ABS? For sure he must/will ride carefully when he rides a bike without ABS from time to time. The only skill as ABS rider you didn't need to learn is to match the point before the lock.
So what? Your wheels will never lock.
All the other skills are the same for ABS or non-ABS riders.
In a emergency situation I would choose a middle-experienced rider with ABS before a experienced rider without ABS to be the one behind me.

Sorry, but I really can't hear that "who needs ABS is to unexperienced to drive a motorcycle" anymore...
If youre so "skilled" then drive without it. If a emergency situation comes, you will see if you manage it. (it=not to lock the front wheel).
I am happy that I didn't need to manage it anymore. Not on leaves, not on rain, not on a sandy street. Just brake full an cocentrate on the street/on the emergency situation instead of the front wheel.

Just my 2 cents.

BR
Robert

Totally misconstrued my post there. I'll endeavour to explain because that wasn't the point I was making at all.
Firstly you totally fail to understand my main point. You shouldn't need to use your brakes in a fashion in which you will lock them up, if you are your already placing yourself in danger, and your problems are probably greater than lacking ABS. As you said they are an emergency feature.
A skilled rider totally avoids the situation in the first place by being more aware, more skilled and simply more careful. There is room for arguement whether all incidents are avoidable, but personally I prefer to argue they are, because when you start saying they are not, your passing on the blame and starting to put yourself in risky situations without taking responsibility.
Its not JUST the skill of knowing the lockup point, because that lockup point varies by conditions. Its a far greater awareness.
Whether I am riding, driving or walking down the road I don't do this because its important to be aware, and realise that just because I may not be technically at fault, or someone did something unexpected if I am dead, injured or have caused similar to someone else in the end I do need to take responsibility. Some people may not feel the same, but I couldn't live with that guilt, and would prefer not to be dead/injured.

I also didn't say ABS makes people unskilled, it simply removes a skill that they should probably have learnt during their education. If you can't gauge where and when that lockup point is then you are relying on technology to do it for you. Its probably not an issue if you only ever drive/ride an ABS vehicle, but as my example stated when thats not the case issues occur. Also knowing how those road hazards will change braking distance is important, and in many ways ABS can and probably will take away that knowledge as people are able to rely on it to keep them safe in -most- situations they probably should have been more careful in. See what I'm getting at?
Claiming ABS has no downside is kind of shortsighted. Despite giant leaps in technology the general consensus from research is that accidents haven't been reduced drastically. Why? Because as people rely more on technology for safety they take more risks. A friend of mine is actually doing research on this here in Aus after leaving Uni and was telling me exactly that and getting very frustrated because I found it hard to beleive.
One interesting point that can show this is how in a US state when helmets where made a legal requirement to riding a motorcycle they saw a drastic increase in accidents and deaths, as people took more risks.

One thing you notice the reviewers of ABS will state again and again is that they would do things usually unsafe with an ABS vehicle because it would compensate for them, and they find pushing this limit to be interesting and fun. Its a valid point for a comparison, but personally I don't see it as being all that relevant on the road when that kind of behaviour can end your, or another persons life. Also considering they are probably already skilled you can't really properly compare their use of ABS to someone without that skill.
Also I'd like to try and demonstrate a small point about how they will judge safety for ABS vehicles. They will probably get ABS vehicles and non ABS vehicles and compare accident rates (and probably not even consider what kind of accidents).
Now since its a new feature on motorcycles and is relatively expensive and heavy you will find that people wanting the most sports orientated bike may forgo that extra weight beleiving it will make them faster, or many people who don't have that extra money as they may be newer or less experienced riders will also take this option, right away you have two major contributing factors that will make ABS look safer, sports riders possibly the more aggressive rev head kind may be avoiding ABS, while newer riders likewise chose not to afford it. Two already high risk groups.
This is just a likely example, but if you think about it you really can't rely on blatant unexplained figures without seeing they have been reached by the right methods, which generally most industries won't do because its more expensive and time consuming.

Also as you state almost all cars have ABS, I'm assuming you mean new cars since older generation cars often don't unless you don't have many older cars on the road which I concede is possible. Now I would love to see the figures that show ABS has had a noticeable difference on accident figures, based on yearly ABS % on vehicles, compared to the yearly accident figures that match. Keeping in mind in most accidents whether braking was an issue or not is probably not even included in the stats it seems unlikely that any kind of accurate figure will have been gathered.

What really strikes me about your post is that your happy to pass on your good braking habits responsibility to a peice of machinery on the motorcycle.
With your ABS comparison for someone braking behind you, I'd personally not want you - relying on your ABS to make up for your possible mistakes to be behind me, why because someone with less skill will hopefully have been more cautious and left more braking distance rather than relying on their bikes ABS.
Also I find your road conditions comment rather rediculous, in those conditions you will still take relatively the same distance to stop, you seem to be overlooking the fact that you should have taken that hazard into account by being a good rider.
Honestly you seem to be showing yourself to be exactly what you misconstrued from my post. You can't just concentrate on the emergency/road when your ignoring the surface you are on because "ABS WILL DEAL WITH IT!"

I don't have ABS, but having heard good things hopefully my next bike will be available with it. However I have learnt valuable lessons without having accidents by finding the limits of my skills and my bike. Lessons probably not learnt by someone using ABS unless when they are used suddenly red lights flash all over their display and bike, showing they have done something wrong that the bike corrected for it.

 

[Rob2222]

Well, our main difference here is the estimation of how hard a good braking maneuver is to archive. I rode 14 years motorcycle in almost every weather all the year and _I_ think that most riders can't fullfill a good braking maneuver in a emergency situation. Even if you practise it in non-emergency situations, a emergency situation is much more different.
If you just brake with good force quickly your front wheel will immidiately lock. You have to brake with half force, let the fork come down and then you can give more braking force. I _think_ for 90% of all riders this is not doable in a emergency situation.
When a car drives 90° to you and you just see it and youre very close you have just millisecs to react. The instinct is to pull the brakes. If you think you can archieve a good braking maneuver in such a situation you are really good or youre overestimating yourself. It can be both.
Maybe you would see it different when you had been in such a situation before.

I didn't want to believe that the most riders with ABS would drive faster/more at the limit. I have no idea how to check this but I just don't believe it. At least my driving sytle didn't changed cause of I have ABS now. Well, not exactly true, I brake harder. I remember a situation, I braked hard on a rainy street to get the front ABS to the regulation, to get handy with the ABS system. I was surprised about the grip to bring the FZ6 on the front wheel and the ABS didn't came. And this is positive to get the limit, knowing that if you come over the limit nothing bad will happen. And yes, this is a thing I had not done without ABS. But I would not say it is unsafe to be able to brake better.

If you want compare ABS vs non-ABS then compare it right. Don't compare alle counts. Compare that situations where ABS would have make a difference. These are that situations where a unsteerable car with locked wheels hit another one or when a car takes the right of way from a rider, he does an emergency brake and going down without touching the car. And such situations I read in this and in my german board more than once. In such situations ABS would clearly have avoided this crash. From all accidents you have to pick that ones related to ABS for a comparisation.

Another thing I did not agree is that you say almost all "test" that point out positives on ABS are just "sponsored" by the industry, easy said. Here in Germany we have enough test where I think that they are serious and neutral. F.E. the ADAC states that you can get with ABS easily up to 8m/s² on wet streets (which mets my experience above) and they they say that less then 1/4 of the riders get 8m/s² even on dry streets.
Another example. Test.de (which is really serious) made some test with drivers on machines with and without ABS from 100km/h. On wet streets they came to full stop on average after 44,5m. Without ABS this average was 57m. For me these are serious facts cause of theire source.

Honestly you seem to be showing yourself to be exactly what you misconstrued from my post. You can't just concentrate on the emergency/road when your ignoring the surface you are on because "ABS WILL DEAL WITH IT!"

Why not? It WILL deal with the lock(!) problem. At least I won't need to concentrate on not locking the front wheel. I think you underestimate this point in a emergency(!) situation. It is not easy in a normal situation, and it is much much harder in a panic situation. Again, maybe you need to have experienced such a situation to change your mind.
And, ABS is not negative in such a situation. You can practise braking and you still can make a perfect braking maneuver in all situations without getting to this limit where ABS starts regulation. As a good braker you can stay below the limit and brake perfect. But _if_ you make an error and you come over the limit and the wheel "would" lock, the ABS helps you in that situation.
With ABS you can do all what you can do without ABS when staying below the limit. And as posted above it is much more safe to learn where the limit is, when you didn't have to fear a touchdown. So you almost _could_ say that inexperienced riders can learn where the limit is much more easy WITH ABS and so they can became the better brakers. To be honest, how much riders learn where this limit is without ABS? As stated above less than 1/4.

I see we have different opinions, its OK for ma and I didn't want to change your opinion. I just wanted to post some thoughts. All who read this all have to make theire own opinion. I hope for you and all other riders that you didn't come in a situation where you would need it.

Best Regards
Robert

 

[CanadianFZ6]

Razteo,

good questions...
I have not heard a bad thing about ABS except when riding in dirt (not going to do that).

I am a relatively inexperienced rider which is why I want ABS

I live in norcal, but it rains here and I commute year round

I want ABS because as much as I practice emergency braking, when its raining and you are coming up to an oil soaked intersection, I will take all the help I can get.

If you have some thoughts about why its a bad idea, I would love to know that as well.


the Euro FZ6 would be my ideal bike, but I'm not going to try and import one...nevermind to california

Bottom line, ABS can save your ass whether you're an experienced rider or a beginner... One of the best innovations to motorcycling ever. I have been riding for nearly 30 years... Even though I am pretty good at threshold braking, the ABS computer easily out performs me handsdown. Get ABS if you can...:thumbup:

 

[Red Wazp]

Bottom line, ABS can save your ass whether you're an experienced rider or a beginner... One of the best innovations to motorcycling ever. I have been riding for nearly 30 years... Even though I am pretty good at threshold braking, the ABS computer easily out performs me handsdown. Get ABS if you can...:thumbup:

Well put! It's just like 4 wheel drive-rarely do you need it, but when you do it's worth every cent!

Another plus for the FJR is it has the same size tires as the FZ6. When I have a long trip ahead with the Feejeer I will replace the tires with fresh rubber and the used tires with plenty of tread left will go on the FZ. Also the FJR has a centerstand and NO CHAIN to mess with. Drive shafts are sooooo nice!

 

[Rob2222]

I find it so strange that you cannot buy the FZ6 with ABS in the US.

In Germany _all_ FZ6 come with ABS since 2006. Yamaha didn't have non-ABS machines in the list here.

Only this year we have some new non-ABS machines with special price. It looks that Yamaha brings some FZ6's from other countries where they cannot sell them to sell them in Germany, where the FZ6 still sells pretty good. And it looks like this bikes have no ABS.

But as you can see the standard German FZ6 series come all with ABS. So why the hell they didn't offer ABS at least as option in other countries?!

BR Robert

 

[Cloggy]

I find it so strange that you cannot buy the FZ6 with ABS in the US.

In Germany _all_ FZ6 come with ABS since 2006. Yamaha didn't have non-ABS machines in the list here.

Only this year we have some new non-ABS machines with special price. It looks that Yamaha brings some FZ6's from other countries where they cannot sell them to sell them in Germany, where the FZ6 still sells pretty good. And it looks like this bikes have no ABS.

But as you can see the standard German FZ6 series come all with ABS. So why the hell they didn't offer ABS at least as option in other countries?!

BR Robert

I totally agree Robert. I love my ABS but it took me a while to get confident enough to use it, at first I would go gentle on the brakes as I did on my old bike, but once you get used to it it's great :thumbup:
When I first bought my FZ6 I was looking for a great looking bike with ABS (this way I could sell it to my wife as a safer bike :spank as I mainly commute on my bike, in almost all kinds of weather (except for black ice).

You can only buy the FZ6 with ABS in Holland now.
The majority of cars in Holland also have ABS nowadays, so it's good to know I have a chance to stop quickly if someone brakes hard in front of me.
I still ride carefully and plan well ahead but it's great to have ABS in case of emergency.

 

[specialk]

ok, since I am in the U.S., no FZ6/FZ1's are going to work.

for mostly commuting and tooling around the hills and some touring on the weekends is the FJR too much? my girlfriend actually likes the thing and hates motorcycles in general.

the VFR honestly fits the bill more for what I am looking for, but I drool over the FJr and the opportunity to own one. what do you guys think?

please don't say that its my decision. I realize that but value the opinions I have heard enough that I care to ask. thanks again for your help.

 

[Red Wazp]

Must I say it again? FJR

No doubt the VFR is a good bike but you won't get that smooth 1300 cc engine and pillion comfort of the Feejeer.
I've got close to 60k on mine and like it more every time I ride it

You can always lurk on the FJR Forum for more info.

Plenty of FJR's out there so buy used and if you do not like it you can sell it without taking a big hit as when you buy new. Be sure it has a YES (Yamaha Extended Service) contract.

Either way both are great bikes but if you can only afford one bike the FJR is a better multi purpose bike IMHO

 

[xgrafcorex]

I was originally looking at an SV650 because it was a bike that I wanted plus the option of ABS. I think ABS is great, especially for new riders. People can argue against it all they want, but if you can turn it off, then it shouldn't matter. Otherwise, buy another bike. Disregarding a bike because it has a specific safety feature sounds kind of strange to me...

 

[steveindenmark]

You are going to change bikes just to have ABS?

How often are you intending to use it then?

I have never had ABS but I am still here to talk about it.

Steve

 

[Kriswithak]

Sorry but I never argued ABS isn't good, I just argued that its addition to vehicles has side effects.
You can argue all the statistical benefits you like, but in the end being a smart rider is worth alot more than ABS. People commenting that they learn to use their ABS in this thread to me practically wins the arguement (imo). Like you said its an emergency feature, but people get it and then rely on it instead of safe riding practices. As I said in my early post most reviewers said that they couldn't even tell it was there till they pushed the bike past its (safe?) limits. Thats wonderful on a closed track when your a skilled rider willing to take risks.

Obviously this is an arguement I won't budge any hardcore ABS haters or lovers in, most people have an opinion and simply won't listen to other points and perspectives if they don't want to change their mind. Thats fine. I just feel its important that people on the fence realise that ABS doesn't replace riding skills, and that in my opinion if you -NEED- them, particularly often, then you probably need to look at your riding practices. Most people won't like hearing this because everyone thinks they are a motogp rider with infinite skill and caution.
To be realistic though, my money is on doing advanced/defensive riding courses as being of far greater benefit than purchasing ABS on your bike if you think you need 'safety features'. Of course both is probably better but I know which I'll get first.

Probably the main problem with my arguement is that I'm basically saying in many cases your generally riding unsafely if you need ABS often (and would probably benefit more from training), while your argueing either that you and everyone else is a great rider (in which case why would you need it), or that you should be able to rely on ABS for sloppy riding tactics (that lead to emergency situations) or both, and no one likes to be criticised.

One thing my first riding trainer told me was that driving a car people learn to take unnacceptable risks, and that on a bike you need to learn not to. He was at one of the most renowned training centres in Sydney that also teaches the police.
If you can understand the perspective your probably already a smart/safe rider, if not then its no point argueing my point any more.

Good luck buying the new bike to the OP. Hope its what your looking for.

 

[CanadianFZ6]

You are going to change bikes just to have ABS?

How often are you intending to use it then?

I have never had ABS but I am still here to talk about it.

Steve

I "once" had a Honda 600 Hurricane... Took it out one January as it was quite warm (12C). Casually coming to a stop... no faster than I did all summer long. I guess it was frost or still cold asphalt.... Pulled the front brake and the front tire just locked. Down the bike went and shattered into a million pieces. I was ok, but wrecked the bike. If it had ABS (and if had been available then), I wouldn't have wrecked. Maybe you and Gary Kasparov can out perform a computer, but mere mortals like me can benifit from ABS.

 

[CanadianFZ6]

You are going to change bikes just to have ABS?

How often are you intending to use it then?

I have never had ABS but I am still here to talk about it.

Steve

You don't "use" ABS... it's there, transparent and always ready. As Wavex explains... it's there to compensate for "emotional" humans and the dumb things we do when we panic.... like our skills going out the window...

 

[Kriswithak]

I don't 'use' ABS because I don't have it yet, it wasn't available when I bought my bike.
But if you read through other peoples posts you will find people saying they 'USE' it, if your all going to argue for ABS try to keep it consistent, theres so much denial in this thread is quite amazing.

While your assumption that ABS would have saved you is very heart warming, alot of other things could have saved you that accident too. Those things don't just happen, and you did exactly what I hypothesised people do. They pass the blame and don't take responsibility, and therefore don't learn.
I'm not going to claim I haven't locked a wheel up, because I have, but it hasn't caused an accident, and I've always gone over the situation in my head or looked at the scene to find out what I did wrong.
Not buying/having ABS isn't an excuse. As I said every time people supporting ABS post they just dig their hole a little deeper.
I'm not going to bother continueing to argue because as I said you really don't want to listen, and I'm wasting my breath. Figuratively.

Also xgrafcorex we aren't talking about actively not buying a bike because it has ABS. We are talking about changing bikes specifically to get it.

 

[Hellgate]

I'd love to have ABS on my bike. I consider myself a pretty good rider but when stuff happens your body goes into reflex mode. Like when a car cuts you off, you hydroplane, etc. Your reflexes kick in as your body goes into autopilot. That is why it is very important to practice braking drills, avoidance drills, etc. Those practice sessions build your reflexes. As much as you practice your body can go into survival mode and you grab too much brake. It happens to all of us. If you've ever een on the track and freaked yourself going into a turn and locked your front wheel you know what I mean. Technology is a wonderful thing that can save your hide. If you feel you need it by all means get a bike that YOU feel comfortable and safe on.

 

[The Toecutter]

I love ABS brakes!! I too wish i had them on my bikes...i do have them on my car and truck,and they saved me from putting a 1995 camaro i was test driving in a HUGE ditch !! back in 1996,and I have sought them out ever since on every vehicle I buy....If you can get em...Do so... :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Wavex]

You are going to change bikes just to have ABS?

How often are you intending to use it then?

I have never had ABS but I am still here to talk about it.

Steve

Yeah some ppl never wore a helmet either and are still here to talk about it.... conclusion: no-one needs a helmet.

 

[RJ2112]

I have, in the past, come down on the side of 'if you know what you are doing, and ride within your limits, ABS is not likely to change your safety'. I still believe that. To a large degree, education and a proper mindset will go furthest to preserving the rider's health. (That is also true, even with ABS on the bike.)

The 'ABS is a crutch' argument is one I have also used. Bad habits beget bad riders. Sounds snobbish to say you should learn first in the dirt with terrible traction, then graduate to ABS on pavement...... at which point you don't really need it very much.

Every winter, I see more 4WD trucks in the ditch, than I do anything else. Why is that?

'ABS is too expensive'..... now the price is coming down, and it is funtioning so well that is a moot point.

It's more complex than 'standard' 'dumb' brakes.... requires more maintenance.

That seems like a reasonable trade off.