How long to charge battery RUNNING?

[CoolATIGuy]

Thanks for the help guys. So great to have a place to come to when frustration sets in.

Still not sure why the original battery died, especially if it came already charged up when it was activated. I did try starting it a few times the day I bought it but didn't ride it, then the next morning it didn't have enough to kick over, wouldn't think that would have killed it.

Anywho, we'll just watch it. Thanks moto and everyone

 

[CoolATIGuy]

Let Bike sit for the last several weeks while we were on vacation for the holidays, outside, with a bike cover, has not been turned on. Frost, and plenty of below-freezing nights I'm sure.


Today, ~41 degrees fahrenheit out. Tested around 11:30AM.

Bike started right up.


- Bike before engine on/key in: 12.53 volts steady

- key turned on/engine off, volts semi-slowly dropped down to 11.90 volts where it stayed steady

- started, warming up ~1680 rpms, hovered around 13.93 volts

- revved to 5k rpms, went up to 13.87/13.88 and hovered there


So although I was concerned at first with the low volts after sitting for weeks, I guess that maybe is normal drainage? It still started right up and gets to the right volts when revved.

 

[CoolATIGuy]

So went out today to try to start the bike again. Tachometer turned on, heard the Fuel Pump whine, looked good to go. Pressing the start button however just gave the sad buzzzzzing noise, didn't even attempt to turn over.

Bump started it (2nd is WAY easier than 1st btw - thanks to those here for the info), went riding for about 15 min. Killed it at a stoplight (I guess I let of the clutch just enough? not sure), and immediately tried to start it up again but wouldn't even try to turn over, just buzzzzzing again.

Nice guy stopped and gave me a jump (car battery with car off), he was a bike owner. Rode it home, turned it off, tried to turn on and no go. Jumped with my car battery (car off), got it started, and let it idle for a bit and watched some voltages. Killing the engine but leaving the bike on with brights and radiator fan, showed voltage as low as 7.99.

Battery's less than 2 months old, was just activated and trickle charged to full capacity a month before I bought it. Took it back to batteries plus today, he said it was 1 volt low and ~60 cold cranking amps, but tested as good. They're going to leave it on the trickle charger overnight then check it tomorrow...

 

[CoolATIGuy]

Revving still shows output at 13+ volts (13.4 or 13.8, can't remember).

Would simply not riding for 1-2 months and starting it a few times/letting it idle for a little while, be enough by itself to drain a battery where it wouldn't even attempt to start?

Any thoughts? Not sure if I have a bad rectifier/regulator, stator, starter, battery, other drain, or simply a case of the cold weather + not riding as often. Getting to be a pain..

 

[CoolATIGuy]

Also, there is a high-pitched somewhat-faint whine by the battery (I think it's the Fuel Pump) - same sound as when you turn on the Kill Switch before starting the bike. But it whines constantly while the bike is running. I also noticed it switches back and forth between a higher and lower pitch by itself while idling - when higher pitched, idling voltage with brights on is around 13.2-13.3. When lower pitched, it drops down almost a volt while idling.

 

[PhotoAl]

If you are getting 13.8V while revving that should indicate a good charging system. You really need to get a decent trickle charger to get the battery "topped up" and maintained. It may be a battery problem but appears you have some sort of drain on the battery causing it to run down. My experience, painful, showed me that the battery needs to be fully charged the other parts of the system carefully checked. From the voltages you are seeing would appear that the stator is good and working properly. Not sure if a bad diode in the regulator could cause the problem or may be a relay that is not switching off. Best was to check is disconnect the ground connection with everything off and measure the current with and amp meter, should be very little if any current - I think the computer module draws a small amount to maintain it's memory.

Motogiro may have a better way to check for battery drain, I have not chased that problem before.

 

[CoolATIGuy]

I was wondering the best way to check for parasitic abnormal draws. So with the bike completely off, disconnect the negative battery terminal and check the amps by touching the negative and positive battery terminals? Which setting would that be on the multimeter? (sorry for my ignorance)

I do drive around always with the brights on which I know creates more of a draw, but over the thousands of miles I've put on the bike it never seems to keep it from charging before, so I don't think that would be an issue. If it's hitting 13.8v when revving and the battery checks out good, it would seem to me it's a good charging system and good battery so much be draining somewhere. Is that a safe absolute conclusion?


Thanks!

 

[CoolATIGuy]

Also, I'll get the battery back from Batteries Plus tomorrow, after they've trickled charged it full all night and tested that it's still good. Assuming it's good and it's known to be full, are there any tests I should run after putting it in before I starting using the juice?

 

[Motogiro]

It could be the battery is not holding charge because it's sitting in a cold environment for long periods and it needs some charging.

The time period you mention doesn't lead me to believe you have a parasitic draw of current.

When you use the starter it is, momentary, the most current hungry device on your bike. After starting the bike it would take quite a few minutes of higher rpm to replenish the battery for the current that the stater uses.

Idling the bike will not charge it enough. I as well as others believe the bike should be able to charge the battery at idle but it does this minimally and so you need RPMs to get a decent charging going. I guess the main reason for this is to keep weight down as well as manufacturing economics.

Without step by step measurements we'd be guessing what the problem might be.

Just from what you're stating, I think your main problem is a charging deficit problem. You're using more current than is being put back. The battery may not be as healthy as it was when new. You can hurt a battery by not keeping it at a minimal voltage level while stored. Add the elements of cold weather and it can take it's toll.

A battery that requires a charge will load the bike's charging system and you will see a lower voltage. As the battery charges the voltage will rise.
The voltage and current have an inversely proportionate relationship. As higher current (amperage) is needed the voltage is less. As the battery comes to it's capacity, it's internal resistance rises and less current is needed. This is where you'll see the voltage rise. The voltage measurement is a good tool to use and it can tell you a lot in trouble shooting the charging system. It is not the only answer when you're seeing proper voltages but don't have the capacity to start and maintain the bike.

 

[CoolATIGuy]

But if the battery tests out good on a true load test by Batteries Plus, and the bike shows 13.8v at the battery when the rpms are up, then I can conclude the battery and charging system (stator and r/r) are fine, correct? So it must be a parasitic draw?


When I get the battery tomorrow, I want to check the voltage with it hooked to the bike, correct? Then is it the volts or the amps I want to check by disconnecting the negative terminal (so I can see the constant drain amount it is undergoing)? And what drain range should it be in for normal onboard computer/clock etc drain?

I probably should also test the draw with and without the stebel airhorn connected - maybe something shorted in the relay and is causing it to slowly drain since it's plugged straight into the battery terminals? It shouldn't have any draw at all unless it's actually being used, correct?


Last Q, I'm hearing the Battery Tender Jr is a great product, but it looks like a 750 milliamp charger. There are a couple other brands for the same price (Schumacher for example) that are 1 to 1.5 amp chargers - should I go with the higher charger or the Jr?




Thanks!!!

 

[CoolATIGuy]

From what I'm seeing below, (moto, can you confirm if I'm right?), it appears the battery is good, the charging system is putting out plenty of power, and there is not a parasitic drain.


No parasitic drain: With bike off/key out, hooking the positive cable to the positive battery post, and putting the multimeter inline between the negative cable and the negative battery post to close the circuit, with the meter on dc milliamp setting, after the initial tac displays then disappears and only the clock is left showing, I'm reading a 0.24-0.26 milliamp draw (usually on 0.25 milliamps). That's normal, correct?

(that test is with the Stebel Nautilus airhorn cables and the battery tender quick connect leads inline as well, so it's as close to a real-world bike-off just-sitting scenario as well.)



Battery good: Battery came back from batteries plus from charging overnight. Yesterday before charging when I took it in it showed 11.5V, 63 cold cranking amps (rated at 120 cca). Today after charging overnight it was showing 13.10V, 246 cca.


Charging system good: Started the bike up, it's showing ~13.93 volts at ~1700rpm.


So I guess my problem is just a case of the winter chills combined with multiple starts, idling, and sitting too long without riding enough to keep charged? Or even with the above info, have I still not conclusively ruled out a bad regulator/rectifier or stator or battery?


I did buy a Battery Tender Junior at Batteries Plus as well, hopefully that will help.

As a bonus, maybe I can carry the mini jump cables with the quick connect lead end in my tank bag - I think it's designed to plug the jump cables to the battery tender, but I'm thinking could plug the mini jump cables quick connect to the quick connect I have hanging off my bike, for a quick jump from a car (off a course) in an emergency. Or are those wires not rated for that??

 

[Motogiro]

From what I'm seeing below, (moto, can you confirm if I'm right?), it appears the battery is good, the charging system is putting out plenty of power, and there is not a parasitic drain.


No parasitic drain: With bike off/key out, hooking the positive cable to the positive battery post, and putting the multimeter inline between the negative cable and the negative battery post to close the circuit, with the meter on dc milliamp setting, after the initial tac displays then disappears and only the clock is left showing, I'm reading a 0.24-0.26 milliamp draw (usually on 0.25 milliamps). That's normal, correct?

(that test is with the Stebel Nautilus airhorn cables and the battery tender quick connect leads inline as well, so it's as close to a real-world bike-off just-sitting scenario as well.)



Battery good: Battery came back from batteries plus from charging overnight. Yesterday before charging when I took it in it showed 11.5V, 63 cold cranking amps (rated at 120 cca). Today after charging overnight it was showing 13.10V, 246 cca.


Charging system good: Started the bike up, it's showing ~13.93 volts at ~1700rpm.


So I guess my problem is just a case of the winter chills combined with multiple starts, idling, and sitting too long without riding enough to keep charged? Or even with the above info, have I still not conclusively ruled out a bad regulator/rectifier or stator or battery?


I did buy a Battery Tender Junior at Batteries Plus as well, hopefully that will help.

As a bonus, maybe I can carry the mini jump cables with the quick connect lead end in my tank bag - I think it's designed to plug the jump cables to the battery tender, but I'm thinking could plug the mini jump cables quick connect to the quick connect I have hanging off my bike, for a quick jump from a car (off a course) in an emergency. Or are those wires not rated for that??

Funny cuz I was just doing a drawing to show how to hook up your meter to do a parasitic drain test. I'll save that for later and sticky it for future searchers.

Great job on your test! Your finding sounds normal but I don't have a standard specification for the FZ6. 50 ma is the limit for leakage tests on a car. Sound like you're well below that.
As an added note for you and future trouble shooters. Batteries can drain themselves across the casing of the battery itself. Depending on the type of dirt as well as leaking film of electrolyte that can have varying degrees of parasitic current leakage through the outer case. Usually the top of the battery. So if you have stuff building up on top of your battery you can eliminate that path. I use dish detergent and a toothbrush when I find a particularly dirty battery.

Keep in mind when you say the word power it means the voltage times the current. Unless you know the actual current/amperage output of your charging system you will not know it's power output. For example if I see 13.8 volts DC and I can measure an amperage rating of 5 amps, the power output will be 5 x 13.8 equaling 69 watts of power.

Normally you would need an ammeter to measure the current. There are devices called shunts the can be temporarily installed inline with the battery terminal and battery wire where you can measure current with your multimeter.

From what you've tested and found I think you're on the correct track in your assessment of what's happening with your battery. To be sure you would need to know the current output at the voltage of your charging system. Without this data you do not know for sure what the power output is.

As far as the plug that is attached to your battery for the tender. You should not try to jump the bike from this wire but you could hook a car battery to your battery for an hour and your battery will receive a charge from another charged battery and probably start depending on the condition of your battery. Remember to disconnect from the helper battery before cranking.

The 750 ma. tender is fine as a tender/charger.

 

[CoolATIGuy]

Funny cuz I was just doing a drawing to show how to hook up your meter to do a parasitic drain test. I'll save that for later and sticky it for future searchers.

Great job on your test! Your finding sounds normal but I don't have a standard specification for the FZ6. 50 ma is the limit for leakage tests on a car. Sound like you're well below that.
As an added note for you and future trouble shooters. Batteries can drain themselves across the casing of the battery itself. Depending on the type of dirt as well as leaking film of electrolyte that can have varying degrees of parasitic current leakage through the outer case. Usually the top of the battery. So if you have stuff building up on top of your battery you can eliminate that path. I use dish detergent and a toothbrush when I find a particularly dirty battery.

Keep in mind when you say the word power it means the voltage times the current. Unless you know the actual current/amperage output of your charging system you will not know it's power output. For example if I see 13.8 volts DC and I can measure an amperage rating of 5 amps, the power output will be 5 x 13.8 equaling 69 watts of power.

Normally you would need an ammeter to measure the current. There are devices called shunts the can be temporarily installed inline with the battery terminal and battery wire where you can measure current with your multimeter.

From what you've tested and found I think you're on the correct track in your assessment of what's happening with your battery. To be sure you would need to know the current output at the voltage of your charging system. Without this data you do not know for sure what the power output is.

As far as the plug that is attached to your battery for the tender. You should not try to jump the bike from this wire but you could hook a car battery to your battery for an hour and your battery will receive a charge from another charged battery and probably start depending on the condition of your battery. Remember to disconnect from the helper battery before cranking.

The 750 ma. tender is fine as a tender/charger.

So could my charging system be putting out the correct 13.9 volts, while simultaneously not putting out the correct amps, and thus causing a charging issue? Or is that even possible?


Between googling, forum searching, and asking the guy at Pep Boys, I figured out how to test the current draw. Which is good, because I was just going to test the amps across the two battery terminals - roflol. If you find me dead one of these days you'll know I was just "working" on my bike. :rockon:

The bike would hit 10-11 milliamps when first closing the circuit (negative lead to negative terminal) with the multimeter, that's when the tac initially displayed, and then quickly go back down to .25 when it was back to clock only.

The battery area actually stays pretty clean from my visual inspection, so I think that's ok. I try to be fairly careful with how the wires and such lay inside so nothing shorts out too.


After my initial thought of how brilliant I was with the "jump through quick-connect" idea, I realized I would probably have a "mission impossible" fuse running straight along my bike. end result being a fiery explosion instead of simply the end of the credits though..

 

[CoolATIGuy]

btw, when the guy jumped my bike, it started right up after only letting it sit connected for a few seconds. So I guess it doesn't take long to get enough juice. It had enough to turn the tach on, but only gave the "buzzz" when pressing the start switch.

 

[Motogiro]

So could my charging system be putting out the correct 13.9 volts, while simultaneously not putting out the correct amps, and thus causing a charging issue? Or is that even possible?


Between googling, forum searching, and asking the guy at Pep Boys, I figured out how to test the current draw. Which is good, because I was just going to test the amps across the two battery terminals - roflol. If you find me dead one of these days you'll know I was just "working" on my bike. :rockon:

The bike would hit 10-11 milliamps when first closing the circuit (negative lead to negative terminal) with the multimeter, that's when the tac initially displayed, and then quickly go back down to .25 when it was back to clock only.

The battery area actually stays pretty clean from my visual inspection, so I think that's ok. I try to be fairly careful with how the wires and such lay inside so nothing shorts out too.


After my initial thought of how brilliant I was with the "jump through quick-connect" idea, I realized I would probably have a "mission impossible" fuse running straight along my bike. end result being a fiery explosion instead of simply the end of the credits though..

LOL! :rof:Your amp test would have been interesting.

Yes on the 13.8 volts showing and you could still have a problem with a component. The problem would most likely show when you might be using and auxiliary device like heated grips etc. The system might take more RPM to reach the 13.8 because the system is not producing the proper current output. The system will develop 13.8 volt potential but when under load it would have abnormal voltage drop. I don't think this is the case with your system but as I previously stated, to know the true power you must know the current x volts. The 13.8 is a pretty solid reference with the FZ6 so again I think your probably good to go.

 

[CoolATIGuy]

So when I'm testing the parasitic draw with the bike off using my 10 amp multimeter, I'm using an ammeter, it's just too lightweight to use with the bike running, is that correct? So I just need to pick up an actual ammeter, which can withstand much more current, and do the exact same test (completing the circuit between the negative post to negative cable) with the bike running? And that will tell me the amps the charging system is actually putting out?

How many amps should that be? And if it falls in that amount, and since I already know the 13.9 volts it's outputting @ 1700 rpm is correct, then I know the charging system is good? Or could it still be putting out the right volts AND amps and the r/r still be a suspected parasite etc?



I'm hoping it was just the cold and starting and not running and sitting. I've put <100 miles on the bike since I bought the new battery 7 weeks ago ( from 12/15 to today).

I drive with the brights on all the time and have the stebel airhorn (which shouldn't be drawing anything when not in use, which it's used very rarely), but that's it. No extra lights, no heated grips or anthing, etc.

If I'm not going to leave the tender on all the time (since it's outside and not under cover of being wet), would plugging it in for the day once a week be sufficient?

I bought the new battery on 12/15/2012, Batteries Plus said it had been activated and fully charged just a month before I purchased it. I brought it home and started it up a couple times, it started up strong (didn't ride it though). 2-3 days later I go out to ride it, but tried to start it up and ended up having to bump start it. That's what I thought was strange.

 

[CoolATIGuy]

Is something like this what's needed ($50.99 for DC + AC version)? Looks like it needs to go around some wiring cable?

Craftsman Digital Clamp-On Ammeter - Tools - Electricians Tools - Multi-Meters & Meters

 

[Motogiro]

Here's some good reading and info from previous discussions related to charging.
http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/1827-fz6-electrical-power.html

http://www.600riders.com/forum/gara...2-condensed-wtf-wrong-my-charging-system.html

A big Thank You!! to members for getting into discussion and researching data related to these topics. They are so useful and educational!

The FZ6 should be able to give something in the area 310 watts. This would be 310 watts divided by the voltage of 13.8 VDC giving us a current of 22.4 amps.

Remember now that that's probably it's highest output. If you look at the data in the first link you'll see what is leftover from a stock system.

 

[Motogiro]

Re: Re: How long to charge battery RUNNING?

Is something like this what's needed ($50.99 for DC + AC version)? Looks like it needs to go around some wiring cable?

Craftsman Digital Clamp-On Ammeter - Tools - Electricians Tools - Multi-Meters & Meters

If that does lower range DC current I'm getting one! You'd measure right at the output of the regulator.

Sent from Moto's Droid using Tapatalk 2

 

[CoolATIGuy]

If that does lower range DC current I'm getting one! You'd measure right at the output of the regulator.

Sent from Moto's Droid using Tapatalk 2

The photo looks like the dial has 400A and 40A. Sorry to be ignorant, but where exactly would you clamp this around on the bike, which strand of wires. I honestly don't even know where the regulator is...I've doubled my knowledge so far just from this thread and googling...