Help me troubleshoot CPS

[VEGASRIDER]

From a previous thread, I have been receiving routine starting failure, with an error code 12 showing up once. Many have suggested checking all the wires, although I have yet to do so I am almost certain that it's not a connection issue because it has never been an issue riding. You would think a connection will come loose during motion than from a stop with no movement. My battery is good, although I have not checked the load.

Here's what's happening. After riding, whether it's for a few minutes or 15-30 minutes, it's hit and miss if it starts up again after I shut off the engine. Bike will not crank over, it's silent except from the sound of the fuel pump. But what I have been able to simulate to get the bike started is to wheel my bike with a combination of neutral and in gear, just to get my gears to rotate. Eventually after I do that, and if I'm lucky, or it may take multiple rotations, it cranks up. I took off the cover this morning to see what the CPS looks like, and it appears normal. Any thoughts? I'm thinking of ordering a new sensor. The sensor currently installed is a replacement, as I have had sensor failure in the past, due to a very loose camchain which eating away the sensor, so technically not the fault of the sensor.

 

[FinalImpact]

I cant look in detail right now, but it is the one sensor that can not be ignored and run with makeshift limp mode value. And as you have seen, the ECU will lock out the start functions if it detects an error.

That sensor generates high voltage. High voltage plus contaminants create electrical break down.

My guess would be the 38 pin connector at the ecu has a growth and/or some kind of decay and needs cleaned. Get a toothbrush, some contact cleaner, and disconnect the battery, unplug the ecu and inspect it. No green, no black, no burns. Clean it. Both connectors.

The ECU does a diagnostic check as soon as the key is on. When it looks to that sensor it sees something it dislikes and locks it out start sequence and then you see the error. But you roll it, the CPS moves a tiny amount, ecu is always looking and sees it reported back successfully. Now it starts.
Well, thats my best guess. Pull all connections apart. Also, this could be caused by inductance. Like wires being too close to each other. Is something moved, added, or worn compared to 4mo ago?

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Thanks Randy, where do find that 38 pin connector? And I don't recall putting stress on any of my wiring except for changing my L/H Front turn signal bulb, can't get it to blink, and it's not the bulb as I figured out, I switched, it's its the wiring or the assembly, might be jammed or not able to connect correctly.

 

[FinalImpact]

Lift the tank. Its the only one of its kind.

PS - CPS is right bellow the fuel tanks White Connector. Its two Pins and Black connector. Be sure to inspect it too.

 

[FinalImpact]

Lets be very specific here; when it fails to start, you are saying it makes ZERO attempts to engage the starter and then the CEL comes on with error 12? Is this correct?

The reason this detail is important is that the speed at which the engine cranks is important. If to slow or inconsistent, the ECU may think the data is in error.

The type of sensor; a Variable Relectance Sensor, has a minimum rotational speed at which it will produce valid data. If the engine cranks to slowly, it could induce this error.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Lets be very specific here; when it fails to start, you are saying it makes ZERO attempts to engage the starter and then the CEL comes on with error 12? Is this correct?

The reason this detail is important is that the speed at which the engine cranks is important. If to slow or inconsistent, the ECU may think the data is in error.

The type of sensor; a Variable Relectance Sensor, has a minimum rotational speed at which it will produce valid data. If the engine cranks to slowly, it could induce this error.

When I press the starter it makes a click sound but no crank. Error code does not appear most of the time. When it finally cranks, at times it is a very slow crank, like it's struggling to turn over or simulates like a weak battery. Oddly enough it's always after riding, when the engine is warm or hot. No issues from a cold start.

 

[Motogiro]

When I press the starter it makes a click sound but no crank. Error code does not appear most of the time. When it finally cranks, at times it is a very slow crank, like it's struggling to turn over or simulates like a weak battery. Oddly enough it's always after riding, when the engine is warm or hot. No issues from a cold start.

Kenny,
This sounds like one of two things. One is there is a poor battery condition or a poor connection possibly at the battery terminal itself. Clicking sound is generally a tell tale of very low battery condition. Or when the engine is hot the fuel is pre-detonating which basically means the fuel is igniting before the end of the compression stroke which makes the engine turn over very slowly or even sometimes will fire the engine backwards for a moment. If the bike does this only when hot there's a good chance it is the latter problem. Ignition timing, poor fuel properties or both can cause this. I know the CPS wheel is keyed to keep it in place but I would check to make sure the key slot has no play or damage. Also if you're using cheap fuel try some better fuel.

 

[FinalImpact]

When I press the starter it makes a click sound but no crank. Error code does not appear most of the time. When it finally cranks, at times it is a very slow crank, like it's struggling to turn over or simulates like a weak battery. Oddly enough it's always after riding, when the engine is warm or hot. No issues from a cold start.

Hey, while there are a couple of bikes being parted out, grab a used low mileage starter solenoid (top of battery tray). Although 100,000 on the starter, it too may be getting it weak. Anyway, if it makes the CLICK and later cranks slow even on a fully charged healthy battery, it could be that it is not getting enough current to the starter (worn/defective starter solenoid).

AGAIN - if the CPS sensor is spun to slowly or as stated, if the engine turns backwards, it could induce the CPS error. My point is that I think this is symptom verses the cause of the error.
--> If bypassing the starter solenoid leads to the bike cranking with "normal crank speeds" replace the solenoid. It has MANY Actuation's and could be failing at this stage.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 ^^^ re the battery connections.

I thought that earlier but figured with the popped code, it had to be something else.

Easy enough to check, also make sure that rubber cover on the positive side isn't squashed in-between the terminal and cable(its happened before).


Good luck and please post what you find..

 

[VEGASRIDER]

I checked the battery terminals when I had the tank lifted last night to check the connection to the CPS. Those electronic circuits are snapped in so tight, it's unlikely that they ever get loose or even dirty so I still have a hard time believing that it is a wiring issue. Like I said, the bike would most likely stop running while in motion, rather from a dead stop where I am having the problem.

I think Randy might be on to something, it could be my starter solenoid. Can you imagine how many times I have used the starter in it's lifetime. It's still the stock starter. The engine cutoff switch had to be replaced last year. So why not the starter. Makes sense.

So would I still be able to push start my bike if it doesn't turn over with the red light still on? I'm guessing no.

Bike started from a cold start from work. Got home, removed the key and reinserted and started the bike with no issue. Then I turned the bike off, left the key in and started the bike up again, no issue. Cranking was fast and strong.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm too lazy to walk out to the garage, BUT, when its acting up, if you put a simple test light to the hot side of the starter, (volt meter would be better), have someone push the button and see, what voltages your getting there right then.

If its a full 12+ volts, you know the starter is an issue.

If its way less than that, your not getting full power to the starter(ie starter is good, relay, etc, has issues...



This is a pic of a bad starter relay CONTACT from my Yamaha 150 HP, 4 stroke. Last year, the starter clicked 5 times, no crank, then started and ran fine. I did some research and replaced the relay. I tore the old one apart just to verify. This one has less than 180 hours on it (total engine run time), from an 06 model engine;

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Thanks Scott,

Might have someone from work test the voltage on the starter, fortunately we have an avionics department where I work, so I don't think getting it tested won't be too difficult

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

BTW, the above mentioned OB starter relay, it would ALWAYS click(even when NOT cranking), the actual coil worked fine, moved and made the click noise), BUT as you can see, the contacts just crapped up on one side (the other side was ok), no power got thru to the starter.

Now this is about a 2300cc engine that does take some "ump" to spin over unlike the FZ so a good contact is VERY CRITICAL and there's NO push starting on the water.

Although I did learn hot to hot wire and by pass the switch altogether if need be......

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm too lazy to walk out to the garage, BUT, when its acting up, if you put a simple test light to the hot side of the starter, (volt meter would be better), have someone push the button and see, what voltages your getting there right then.

If its a full 12+ volts, you know the starter is an issue.

If its way less than that, your not getting full power to the starter(ie starter is good, relay, etc, has issues...



This is a pic of a bad starter relay CONTACT from my Yamaha 150 HP, 4 stroke. Last year, the starter clicked 5 times, no crank, then started and ran fine. I did some research and replaced the relay. I tore the old one apart just to verify. This one has less than 180 hours on it (total engine run time), from an 06 model engine;

I saw you post that before and it looks like it never spun.... More often than not, the spring they push against during actuation, when unloaded spins the disc a tiny amount always leaving a fresh edge. The green on the Hot side implies the salt air got in there and allowed some decay which may have been the beginning of the end of reliablilty if the disc does not spin to a fresh section.... Think - always moving to a another section...

A simple Test light across the solenoid while cranking would work too. Because it draws current, it should go OUT completely if the solenoid makes good contact. Of course we are relying on the starters internals to be healthy for the test light or meter to read proper....

Ask if you can borrow Cliff's Hammer!!! BlahBlah

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That particular solenoid is sealed up(obviously for marine use). As noted the 12 volt coil, pushes the contacts together. Wether it spun or not, its sealed and is made VERY STOUT.

Besides being about $85.00, it took me, with an air powered cut off tool, easily 15 minutes to cut it apart. Nothing like a cage...

And really not related, but under the "hood" I keep a coat of LPS2 (recommended by the dealer) to keep corrosion to a minimum;

That relay is under a black plastic cover towards the bow(or left) of this pic(just up and to left of the oil filter);

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Well after a few weeks with no issues, I thought the bike fixed itself. Obviously not so, yesterday the bike failed to turn over again, but I got it to start by rolling the bike a bit. Today, different story, it would not turn over after I pulled into the casino. After eating at the buffet, I tried again hoping it would turn over with the engine cooled down a bit, no crank. Then I decided to push my bike a steep ramp and try jump starting it, and it started. So another clue. Here's what I do know.

1. Bike will not turn/crank over when engine is warm or hot at times. I can hear the fuel pump come on and my speed indicator lights up. Engine never dies when riding so not an electrical short.
2. Sometimes when the bike does turn over, I can hear it struggling, like it has low battery issues.
3. Battery appears to be good, even after plugging it into a charger, it turns green in 3-5 minutes. But I may switch batteries to see if it helps.
4.. Bump starting the bike was a success, seems like by passing the starter switch is a clue?
5. Engine cut/off switch is relatively new, replaced 2 years ago but the starter is still the factory installed. At 104k miles, it has gone through a thousands of starts.

One member from another forum mentioned something about a clutch plunger? I have no idea what he is talking about.

 

[Motogiro]

Well after a few weeks with no issues, I thought the bike fixed itself. Obviously not so, yesterday the bike failed to turn over again, but I got it to start by rolling the bike a bit. Today, different story, it would not turn over after I pulled into the casino. After eating at the buffet, I tried again hoping it would turn over with the engine cooled down a bit, no crank. Then I decided to push my bike a steep ramp and try jump starting it, and it started. So another clue. Here's what I do know.

1. Bike will not turn/crank over when engine is warm or hot at times. I can hear the fuel pump come on and my speed indicator lights up. Engine never dies when riding so not an electrical short.
2. Sometimes when the bike does turn over, I can hear it struggling, like it has low battery issues.
3. Battery appears to be good, even after plugging it into a charger, it turns green in 3-5 minutes. But I may switch batteries to see if it helps.
4.. Bump starting the bike was a success, seems like by passing the starter switch is a clue?
5. Engine cut/off switch is relatively new, replaced 2 years ago but the starter is still the factory installed. At 104k miles, it has gone through a thousands of starts.

One member from another forum mentioned something about a clutch plunger? I have no idea what he is talking about.

The clutch plunger is what disengages the clutch. If the bike is in neutral this should not be an issue.
From what you're describing now it sounds as if the charging system or the battery have a problem. Charge the battery and have it load tested. The battery may show good voltage wise but have little in current delivery. A load test will tell you if this is the case. If the battery tests good it will be time to test the charging system. Don't discount the starter or starter relay having a problem. Just because they've worked all these years does not mean they can't fail. You can be disappointed in this bike. Look at the mile you racked up! Lol! :rockon:

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Could it be bad plugs? Would the bike still turn over with bad plugs?

 

[fate]

Could it be bad plugs? Would the bike still turn over with bad plugs?

Not really... the starter is mechanically rotating the engine.... even with 4 dead plugs the starter will rotate the engine, it will just not start...

Most likely as the other pointed out: the starter is not receiving the power it needs. (battery bad, relais bad, connection/cable issue, high resistence somewhere)
Mechanical starter issues... or contact inside the starter magnet are bad...


ps: forgive my bad tech english

You could try to git the starter with a rubber hammer. This can help with a sticky magnet..... but I doubt it...
You could try connecting a known working battery (from a car or so) and directly connect it with the starter like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-RzcsdFoRQ

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Besides the battery load test, put a volt meter on the starter positive terminal to ascertain your getting 12 volts to it.

IF YOU ARE, your starter is most likely toast.


The starter is stout but yours has served easily 3 x's as long as it was designed to.


Agreed also with Fate ^^.

Jump starting (car not running) 12 volts DIRECT TO THE STARTER (when it WON'T crank), by- passing the entire bikes electrical system SHOULD have the starter spinning normally.

If it doesn't crank, it's the starter-no doubt.. Basically a "bench test" but still on the bike..