Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[bigborer]

Here is what remained after filtering the oil through the paper coffee filter- some black, maybe plastic particles, and some silver and golden metal particles. I've also gutted the oil filter and it looked very similar. The oil had about 1500km.
I've never inspected the insides of an oil filter, so I don't know it that is normal or not.

Next things I'll remove and check:
-clutch
-oil pan
-engine head

Hopefully it will be able to check for any unusual play at the piston rods from down under, where oil pan is.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That right there is NOT normal or good.. And that's NOT what the oil filter caught.

A lot, but what I'd expect from a loose cam chain sawing away at an aluminum case.. Metal vs aluminum (at 2K-14k RPM's)

The black stuff is likely the rear guide as it wore away.

It's good your pulling that pan, that needs to be out of there... If you can get to a lower rod bearing, you may want to peek and look
for any scoring..

Before buttoning up the lower end,(when you get that far), I'd spray the snot out of the bottom
of the engine with brake cleaner to flush out as much of those particles you can...

 

[FinalImpact]

Not trying to rock the boat but we have very different opinions. Or maybe I've seen much worse???

The guide material laying in the pan is not wonderful but potentially there on every oil change if all of us filtered our oil. Beings it sank to the pans bottom and was out of circulation, pretty harmless. Being plastic vs aluminum or copper/steel the later wears the pump and engine while the guide material is not taking life from the reciprocating components....

I'm just saying, still no smoking gun pointing to a failure.

Is any of the material from either filter magnetic? If so and it is of such fine material that it looks grey, that is of concern. A few flecks of guide not a show stopper.

The first oil change on the FZ as a second owner I opened the filter (its second filter ever) just to gauge up engine health. IIRC it was pretty clean for break in filter at 4,400 mi.

I'm still of the mindset to assemble it, add oil to all cylinders and fire it off. Does it repeat the noise?

I think you could gut the engine and have to look real close to find this. What happened with internal camera???

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As noted, IMO, there shouldn't be any of that in there. My old FJR, for break in had a bunch of very fine silvery particles at the first oil change.

I've been using, since 2009 (when I got the FZ), a K&N SS, CLEANABLE oil filter: Technical Information | K and P Engineering

It's checked (and cleaned) every time the oil is changed. And there is NO metal particles from hacking up the filter. I know the
internals are healthy on this engine.

In 21,000 miles I haven't accumulated anything visible from the oil filter or old oil.


That oil remains, pictured above, is 10x worse than my FJR was and no black stuff..

Whether its the cam chain or something else, dunno but the chain is worn.

Keep tearing down and do the "engine alone running test", it may in-deed show something..

The failure/ noise, from the initial ignition failure should not have caused internal damage
as described. Reading/looking thru a computer screen, the chain does wear out.

Anyway, keep on digging.. Hope something definite is found..

 

[FinalImpact]

On another forum a guy used this $13 usb camera to snake down the intake and into an open intake valve on his cage. We don't have enough valve lift for that but it may have other uses....

Its on Amazoo....
USB Boroscope

 

[bigborer]

Today I took out the oil pan. It was fine, apart from some more particles like the ones caught by the coffee filter.
Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to do much checking in that area, as it got about to start raining, but I'll do some more checking tomorrow.

Next step: take off engine head.

 

[bigborer]

On another forum a guy used this $13 usb camera to snake down the intake and into an open intake valve on his cage. We don't have enough valve lift for that but it may have other uses....

Its on Amazoo....
USB Boroscope

I already have something very similar but it's too big to fit in the 600cc engine. The most interesting "other uses" for it was using it for visual aid in tying a bicycle brake wire around a knife that got stuck inside a kitchen drawer blocking it shut, using 2 tools I'd made from a wire clothes hanger, and operating from a 3cm wide slot. Took about 2 hours, and made me question my career choices, as it proved I could have been a good laparoscopic surgeon ) .

 

[bigborer]

I managed to find a guy with another FZ6, who was kind to let me listen, film and test ride his bike (unless I filmed with my phone, it would have been useless).

His bike (yes, CCT rattle but no grinding noise): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4dF0K_Sh2s
My bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1DIpp6eAPw

Finally some proof that I'm not crazy )

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So what happened with this???

 

[Nupa]

So what happened with this???

I felt a plot twist would be nice :

Plot twist: bike worked, drove it, crashed it

Other plot twist: Sold off the bike in pieces to that fz6 owner who's bike he test ride just now and is currently on his way to buying another fz and just wants to surprise us with the pictures of the new ride?


Post scrip:
Hi . I'm new here, just bought a black 08 fz6 after owning one for 40k miles from brand new but never had to use this forum.. so now I come here stumble upon this treasure trove of how to take apart and put your fz back together: complete edition with how to diagnosis a fz panphlet- , read all 11 pages and see your comment here at the end. I feel your pain! I want to know even more than you! Heck I can't believe you've waited this long for a response! Haha

 

[bigborer]

The current status of this is... pending.

I've been very busy with work and also had some issues with insufficient tools. For example, in order to take out the throttle bodies a 3mm hex tool is needed. Didn't have one long enough, so I had to buy a 3mm 1/4", and then use multiple extension rods to finally reach the throttle body screws.

Next, in order to take out the engine head a 1/2" 12mm end is too thick to fit, and a 1/4" too fragile (already bent an extension rod), so currently I'm waiting for some 3/8" set to arrive. All this means more delays.

Also, the ordered parts (cam chain, guide, gaskets, etc) are still in transit as well.

Nupa- please watch less tv

There'd be no point to part or replace this bike with another fz6, after I've already put new tires, fully rebuilt r6 brakes and fork, new pads, centered the rotors and rims, steel brake lines, etc.

At most, I'll buy something more touring, most likely an fjr1300 as a stable mate for the fz6, but first I should get this working (wouldn't wanna end up as "that guy", with a mini scrapyard of nonfunctioning bikes in his backyard)

 

[Nupa]

Haha all in good fun .. and less TV? Who would say such things?? Tv is known for its immensely valuable programmings!

 

[bigborer]

Today I managed to remove the head. The cylinders seem ok.
Now I need to get a valve press and a 50-75mm micrometer.

Tomorrow I'll remove the clutch as well.

 

[fate]

Today I managed to remove the head. The cylinders seem ok.
Now I need to get a valve press and a 50-75mm micrometer.

Tomorrow I'll remove the clutch as well.

cylinders look very good.

Can we have a photo from the valves?

My guess would be either chain tensioner or chain guide issue.

Good luck!

 

[FinalImpact]

Did you ever do a compression test before tear Down?

Looking at the walls does not tell us anything about the rings ability to seal compression gasses and turn combustion gasses into power.

I would like to see the valve faces and intake and exhaust valves backside inside the port. Like the cylinder wall, we can only speculate fault by seeing color differences and/or deposits. We won't know much else until precision measurements are made and worn or damaged parts are found.

 

[FinalImpact]

Remind me again. 1 and 4 were offline during coil failure?

Can you show us the crowns and walls comparing the 4 holes?

 

[bigborer]

Here are some more photos.

IRL, no significat carbon deposits differences were present on any cylinders, and I can say that my car's duratec engine had 3x-4x more carbon deposits at 2x the mileage (cars do have EGR however). Also, all 4 cylinder walls look the same.

Yes, cylinders 1 and 4 were shut off due to the coil issues.

Right now I'm still waiting for some more tools, including a proper valve press.

No, I didn't do a compression testing before tear down, because 1- fear of something internal cracking and giving the engine terminal damage, and 2-didn't want to waste time, as I knew I'd measure with a micrometer both the piston rings and cylinders anyway.

On a side note, due to a piece of crap "universal holder tool", I manage to snap off one clutch boss screw mount. Ordered the proper tool from EBC (shaped like a pressure plate), and a "new" (19k miles donor bike) complete clutch.

Another thing- is it any way to remove the stator flywheel with no special tools? For the center bolt I'd use a rubber belt oil filter tool, but not sure what to use as a puller.

 

[FinalImpact]

Maybe its just lighting but the corner of the exhaust valve nearer your CCT seems bluish like it's been hot from not sealing. Likely just lighting as it seemed to idle pretty smooth. But if the valve were not seating it would run hotter, turn blue and burn. None of which relate to electric failure... Entertain me, what was the clearance on that valve?

 

[bigborer]

Reference values are Intake: 0.13–0.20 mm
Exhaust: 0.23–0.30 mm

The valve clearances were these:

 

[bigborer]

One more thing- I did some research and it seems that the piston rod bolts are the elongating type, therefore really non reusable.

This sucks so much, if I order new bolts it will take another month or so to get them ((

The options are:
1- reuse them and risk them breaking and terminating the engine- this seems the riskiest option
2- remove the cylinders with the pistons still fixed to the crankshaft, I've seen this done before but it has quite a risk of bending the rings when reattaching. This would allow full cylinder inspection, but no rod bearings access
3- leave the pistons and cylinders alone, only removing the crankcase and checking what else is left, mainly just for play as the crankshaft won't be able to be removed
4- leave the whole ****ing thing as is, refit everything as soon as the new parts arrive (cam chain, guide, etc) and pray that the engine won't make that noise, and if it does, restart all the tearing down, as there is no way I'm risking riding with an engine that has a high chance of failure/seizure. It will cost me a new head gasket and am additonal number of hours of my time
5- order and wait one more month for the new screws to arrive, saying goodby to any riding for this season

Got over 120 hours in this, at the current moment, and still don't have all the tools, still don't have all the parts.... I do enjoy projects and wrenching quite a bit, but in all honesty, this has gotten past "fun". If I were more rational, I'd just do some damage control and either swap a full engine from a low mileage bike, or just part the bike entirely. However I am not that rational, and after going this far, I'm 100% determined to get this bike fully functional, even if it costs me 10000€ more and 500h more of my time, and taking 5 more years.
My GF told me "congrats on your bike for life!". I asked her "what?" "...well. after all the time and money you've spent on this bike, there's absolutely no way you'd be able to get it back, if you decided to sell it. So only thing left is to keep it for life". And though she's not up to date with all the money and time spent into this, the affirmation is correct. Factoring everything, it has gotten past it's original list price...