Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[bigborer]

Great news- I finally got the valve seals!

Work is crazy busy right now, but I'll do whatever is possible to get it back together by mid Sunday.

 

[bigborer]

Just spent 4h trying to fit the gearbox. As soon as I tighten the last quarter turn of the screws of #12 https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/2004/fz6-fz600ss/transmission the main axle gets much harder to turn. I don't know what the hell is wrong. I tried to measure all the corners of #12 and they seem within 0,1mm of each other.

This is the axle from the "new" gearbox. The old one is impossible to fit, as part #12 got out of the main axle when I removed it, and I don't have all the proper tool to press it into place (there's no way I'm using a piece of pipe and a hammer). I'll have to wait till Monday to go to a Nissan dealership where dad knows a guy, hopefully they have the proper tools to press that bearing.

Kind of sucks, getting it back in one piece seemed like a straight forward job, and I really thought I'd ride it by Sunday evening. I even got the insurance renewed, starting from Sunday

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Was it bearing #13 that was loose on the old transmission?

IE, is that large end bearing a press on fit on that shaft?

 

[bigborer]

No, that wasn't loose one, and apart form #14 which is pressed into the crank case (and it was easier to keep the old one) everything from that diagram is "new".
Yes it is a very tight press fit.

After a gym session I came back home with a fresher mind and took another look at the axle. It seems that there is a very small gap (0,1-0,2mm) between #13 and the nearing sprocket. If this is true, then that offsets the axle end, making it rub into the crank case wall, and explaining why it gets hard to turn. It might be that there are very tight tolerances, after all a car engine of similar technology barely makes 1/2 the power for each cc.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

No, that wasn't loose one, and apart form #14 which is pressed into the crank case (and it was easier to keep the old one) everything from that diagram is "new".
Yes it is a very tight press fit.

After a gym session I came back home with a fresher mind and took another look at the axle. It seems that there is a very small gap (0,1-0,2mm) between #13 and the nearing sprocket. If this is true, then that offsets the axle end, making it rub into the crank case wall, and explaining why it gets hard to turn. It might be that there are very tight tolerances, after all a car engine of similar technology barely makes 1/2 the power for each cc.

That would do it....

The older bikes (70's and 80's), you could shim up your transmission shafts for the proper clearances (also pressed on gears, etc).

The FZ doesn't have any adjustment shims (transmission shafts) to take up slop as tolerances are so much tighter now-a-days...

 

[FinalImpact]

Just spent 4h trying to fit the gearbox. As soon as I tighten the last quarter turn of the screws of #12 https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/2004/fz6-fz600ss/transmission the main axle gets much harder to turn. I don't know what the hell is wrong. I tried to measure all the corners of #12 and they seem within 0,1mm of each other.

This is the axle from the "new" gearbox. The old one is impossible to fit, as part #12 got out of the main axle when I removed it, and I don't have all the proper tool to press it into place (there's no way I'm using a piece of pipe and a hammer). I'll have to wait till Monday to go to a Nissan dealership where dad knows a guy, hopefully they have the proper tools to press that bearing.

Kind of sucks, getting it back in one piece seemed like a straight forward job, and I really thought I'd ride it by Sunday evening. I even got the insurance renewed, starting from Sunday

As in the case halves are secured to torque spec and then tightening that bearing retainer causes a bind?

That would lead me to believe bearing #14 is not seated all the way while the cases are being secured.

What precautions were taken to ensure it is seated to depth before the cases are tightened?

Because it means breaking the FIPG on the case, the case must be parted but you might loosen all the bolts and tap the shaft with a rubber mallet, run down the screw bolts on the bearing and see if that helps. If it does, take the case bolts to spec and see if it turns freely.

You'll have to pull it apart for new sealent but if the process works, you should be good.

 

[bigborer]

As in the case halves are secured to torque spec and then tightening that bearing retainer causes a bind?

That would lead me to believe bearing #14 is not seated all the way while the cases are being secured.

What precautions were taken to ensure it is seated to depth before the cases are tightened?

Because it means breaking the FIPG on the case, the case must be parted but you might loosen all the bolts and tap the shaft with a rubber mallet, run down the screw bolts on the bearing and see if that helps. If it does, take the case bolts to spec and see if it turns freely.

You'll have to pull it apart for new sealant but if the process works, you should be good.

The crank case parts are still apart, as the input axle is fully fixated to the half that is in union with the cylinders. The output axle is the one that has the bearing sandwiched between the crank case parts.

#14 is pressed into the crank case wall but it having gotten a bit unsettled while doing the initial tear down is also one possibility. Unfortunately the bearing race driver kit I've ordered is still in transit (for +1 months), so ATM I got no means to try to repush it.

2 more things I've checked:
-the crank has zero runout, measured with a 0,01mm dial indicator (factory specs lists 0,06mm runout limit)
-the oil pump is worn out almost to the limit- inner rotor to outer rotor should measure 0.03-0.09mm with a limit of 0.15mm, and mine measured 0.013mm. I've ordered one from ebay

PS:since I've gone through all this hassle, I've decided to repaint the engine as the original paint is severely flaking. Does anyone know how hot the outside of the engine gets? Will a primer rated for 110C max last?

 

[bigborer]

I've just picked up the gearbox axle with the pressed bearing from the shop... in the end I didn't go to the guy from the Nissan dealership but went to a bike shop instead, as it was much closer.
The owner of that shop has a goodish reputation and is also working on race engines (drag racing a turbo 'busa himself), so he should be at least decent at building engines.
He told me "I'll guarantee you that after you mount it back together it will still make that noise, because I'm certain it's not the gearbox... most likely it's a piston skirt, rod, or rod-crank bearing". What do you think about this?

He did offer to do a full check and rebuild for ~200$, which is reasonable (avg hourly rate is 20$ here). He claimed to be able to safely reuse the rod bolts by tightening them at a "secret" torque (I did read in a few places about some formulas for calculating pre-used elongating bolts torque). I was tempted at first, especially since this month it'll be extremely busy at work, and because it'd avoid the delays with ordering new bolts (letting me ride at least a few days before the snow/ice) and later called him for more detail, but he declined to let me watch the process.

Somehow I just didn't feel 100% confident the job will be properly done, and I decided to take the long route, and do the job myself. As much as experience has it's merits, there's no way to tell who will actually do the job, if they'll rush it or not, or if any parts will get (accidentally or not) secretly swapped.

So far I've removed the rod ends (see pictures for bearings), which don't look that bad, 1, 3, and 4 look almost identical, 2 has a little hot spot. Attached pics are from cyl 1 and 2.

I'll check:
-plastigauge rod bearings
-plastigauge crank bearing
-measure the cylinders
-measure the pistons for diameter and roundness
-measure the piston to cylinders clearance
-measure the piston pin and bore
-measure ring clearance
-measure the crank journals for roundness
-inspect rods

 

[bigborer]

Today I took out the crank and discovered that the big end bearings are done, attached is one of the worst

Before doing any further work on this, I'll check the cylinders. If those are done as well, or very close to the limit, I'm done with this engine.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

How's the crank look? That bearing doesn't look that bad to me...


@FinalImpact



.

 

[FinalImpact]

How's the crank look? That bearing doesn't look that bad to me...


@FinalImpact



.

Untill you check the clearances, you don't know. Looks like it's broken in. It does not look gone by any stretch if it is the worst looking.

I expected copper or chunks missing that looks it is now seated and and the uniformity is showing itself. Not a show stopper if the clearances are in spec.

No oil and plastigage it.

 

[FinalImpact]

Is that from the lower block half or upper?

 

[bigborer]

That is from the part that's one with the cylinders. I don't know if you can tell by the picture, but the edges of the scraped area are showing a copper tint.
Haven't yet had the time do any measurements.

 

[FinalImpact]

That is from the part that's one with the cylinders. I don't know if you can tell by the picture, but the edges of the scraped area are showing a copper tint.
Haven't yet had the time do any measurements.

I see copper by the feed holes and that doesnt matter.
I would think the bottom would look worse as its doing most of the work during the firing stroke.

One bearing of the four worn on the top could be an alignment issue. If it were worn on the forward side where the shells meet, the gears pushing each other away from each other could be a factor but I doubt it.

If it had good oil pressure I'd plastigage and move on if it meets specs.

 

[bigborer]

All I could do for the bike in the past month has been to buy a pack of MoS2 grease.

Hopefully I'll manage to complete all the measurements and place the order for the parts till mid December.

 

[bigborer]

Happy new year everyone!

I've restarted working on the bike.
-pistons and rings are within spec (will get new rings however)
-the rods seem fine (the machining marks for the pin holes still look like new!)

Almost all checking that is left to do is to plastigauge the bottom end bearings and then I'll order the parts.

If I don't finish at least (correctly) mounting back the engine by the end of February I don't know when else I'll have the time to make this bike rideable.

 

[bigborer]

Checked the piston pins and pins bores- all within spec.

Plastigauged the rods bearings- they are right at the upper (looser) limit.

Now, I'm quite stuck with the crank bearings.

-1st of all, it's impossible to identify them.

According to the manual Photobucket there should be a code, and each decimal is subtracted by the corresponding decimal from the crank shaft, then subtracted by 1, and finally resulting a number from 0 to 4. There isn't such code on my crank case (and it's not me- I'm lucky to have better eyesight than all the people I know). What you see is probably the crank case machining code, because should I start subtracting from zero, I'd end up with a negative number.

Good news- the bearings also have colored strip, corresponding to each code. The bad news- out of five bearings, you can tell that there's a black one, a blue one, and maybe another blue one. The other two are impossible to tell since the paint is washed off.

-2ndly there are contradictions between the 2004 and 2007 service manuals regarding bearing codes.

04 manual:
0 White
1 Black
2 Brown
3 Green
4 Yellow

07 manual:
0 White
1 Blue
2 Black
3 Brown
4 Green


As my bike is made in 04 I should consider the 04 manual, however since I've found one of the bearings to be blue and with blue only listed in the 07 manual, I'm more inclined to follow the 07 coding.

At least for the rod bearings both manuals are showing the same coding.

So, any opinions about the crank bearings?

 

[bigborer]

Turns out it's 55555

If the size is the same for all “J1 to J5” one
digit for that size is indicated. (Crankcase
side only)

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Can't you simply plasti-gauge the crankshaft? Or did all the bearing get mixed up (hopefully not)...

 

[bigborer]

If I were such a dumbass as to mix up the bearings, I probably wouldn't have started this rebuild

Plastigauge measurements are around 0.082 to 0.09mm depending on the bearings, and that's quite much more than the 0.028-0.052mm specs. The crank journals are great- no apparent scratches, and almost no runout - 2 journals have around 0.001-0.002mm and the rest seem perfect (limit is 0.03mm).

As the crank bearing slack is that large, wouldn't it be better to order one size tighter bearing? The issue with this idiotic color coding system is that there are absolutely no size specs to be found anywhere. I've even asked the guys from partzilla and they said that the only to find the right size is to buy and then plastigauge each color.