Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[bigborer]

I did fully remove the airbox from the bike, and tried to locate the noise with a stethoscope, but had no luck with that.

Today I did remove the top engine cover and discovered the following:
-chain appears to be too worn out
-exhaust cam appears to have skipped a tooth, in the picture the crank was at tdc
-only measured the intake clearance for cyl1, it was 0.16mm (specs say 0.13-0.2)
-the inside of the top cover appears to be flaking off (or is that old oil?)
-didn't detect any kind of play or loose screws at the cam mounts
-exhaust pipes seem very rusty to me, for only 43k kms / 27k miles

Now I feel sorry I didn't open it from the beginning, it only took around 1 hour. It got too dark to continue working on it, but tomorrow I'll try to turn the exhaust camshaft clockwise 1 tooth, and measure all the valve clearances.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It doesn't appear the cam is off a tooth BUT that NOT lining up is from "chain stretch" .

At TDC, the chain is taught to the exhaust cam- the cam is NOW farther back from the alignment marks.

You need a cam chain.


Inspect the rear chain guide as that gets the most wear and tear as the tensioner pushes on that.


As for the marks inside the valve cover, there's nothing RIGHT THERE to scruff it. I suspect it got scuffed either going on or
coming off...

With the cam chain replacement (it has been done without pulling a cam-but it's tight),

I would pull each cam and check bearing surfaces and make sure there weren't oil starved...

 

[FinalImpact]

Assuming the intake is lined up and the cranks on the T mark of case split, that is pretty normal.
Does the wear bar inside the valve cover show any groves?

My thought is that if you spun the crank 720° 3x and checked all three marks each time I bet you get slightly different results and E-cam is what off by a millimeter or less? Until a degree wheel is used its hit or miss with visual methods.

Just saying although our opinions differ, I don't see this as the smoking gun. And unless you use a degree wheel on the crank, it will have zero impact on valve checking results. That is not to say the guides are not worn.... but it is not off a full tooth by any means.

Measure clearances and then repeat one time to verify before pulling cams and making shim adjustments.

 

[miso11]

If you suspect that your odometer has been rolled back just take out the speedo. If there are traces of glue or sealant or cutting / sawing it was opened and some scammer rolled back kilometers. When I was buying my bike I personally saw two FZ6 with lots of glue on back of the speedo. This applies only to the S1 model. S1 speedo can not be opened without cutting.

 

[bigborer]

Thanks for your input!

It doesn't appear the cam is off a tooth BUT that NOT lining up is from "chain stretch" .

At TDC, the chain is taught to the exhaust cam- the cam is NOW farther back from the alignment marks.

You need a cam chain.


Inspect the rear chain guide as that gets the most wear and tear as the tensioner pushes on that.


As for the marks inside the valve cover, there's nothing RIGHT THERE to scruff it. I suspect it got scuffed either going on or
coming off...

With the cam chain replacement (it has been done without pulling a cam-but it's tight),

I would pull each cam and check bearing surfaces and make sure there weren't oil starved...

I will buy a new cam chain. Also, when pushing the chain between the 2 cams it goes down a lot, at least 4mm.

Assuming the intake is lined up and the cranks on the T mark of case split, that is pretty normal.
Does the wear bar inside the valve cover show any groves?

Do you mean this?

My thought is that if you spun the crank 720° 3x and checked all three marks each time I bet you get slightly different results and E-cam is what off by a millimeter or less? Until a degree wheel is used its hit or miss with visual methods.

Just saying although our opinions differ, I don't see this as the smoking gun. And unless you use a degree wheel on the crank, it will have zero impact on valve checking results. That is not to say the guides are not worn.... but it is not off a full tooth by any means.

Measure clearances and then repeat one time to verify before pulling cams and making shim adjustments.

The exhaust cam is off by at least 3mm.
For accurate rotations, I was thinking about drawing some lines like this, with 0 degrees and 90 degrees in respect to the marking

I'd get a degree wheel, but they seem hard to find, and it might take some time before it ships.

I've checked the parts diagram and according to it the exhaust cam sprocket has 32 teeth, so each tooth amounts to 11,25 degrees. The misalignment is 4-5 degrees, so ok, there is nothing skipped but it still doesn't seem right to me.

Also, with the current condition of the timing marks not lining up, is the measurement of the clearances still relevant?

If the new chain isn't fixing it, only other option I can think of right now is taking apart the gearbox, and then, if that turns to nothing, take off the crankshaft . Or just call it quits and ride it as is, until something really breaks I'll know for sure what to replace. But I'm not sure how much fun that'd be, as I'd be more focused on engine noise and keeping the clutch covered just in case is suddenly seizes, that enjoying the ride and observing the road/ near traffic.

 

[bigborer]

If you suspect that your odometer has been rolled back just take out the speedo. If there are traces of glue or sealant or cutting / sawing it was opened and some scammer rolled back kilometers. When I was buying my bike I personally saw two FZ6 with lots of glue on back of the speedo. This applies only to the S1 model. S1 speedo can not be opened without cutting.

Mine is the naked version, and it has some screws in the back of it, probably it wouldn't be too hard to take apart. And while I was never into this, I'd bet that with enough effort I could use a programmer to manipulate any odometer, even without accessing the memory chip where the odometer stores it's values, at worst it could be made to go over 999999 and start over. And even cheaper, it's possible to just buy a new instrument cluster.

But the deal is already done, the bike registered on my name, so my only options now are to sell it at big loss or fix it.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've had cam chains (KLR 250) one last 73,000 miles (1989 bike-street use) and my last 2005 250, stretch out and rattle at 28,000 miles..
(BTW, Meticulously maintained)

However that chain is easily twice as long (much less HP, lower RPM range, etc) but found the marks off similar to yours.

New chain, everything lined up- no question.


With your manual tensioner, if properly adjusted, I wouldn't think you'd have that much play on the "TOP" run.

Also, your close enough right now to check and adjust valve clearances while waiting...




.

 

[FinalImpact]

Engine off it is normal to be able to depress chain between cam gears. Its why all checking is done soley by rotating crank clockwise. And even then, cam lobes and springs can rotate the cams forward making chain slack.

Yes, wear bar between the cams on the cover. I cant tell how deep the groves are.

Yes, check all valves now. Notice the base circle of the cam lobes are over 200°. That said, a couple degrees off from ideal measurement points is not factor. More important is accurate repeatable measurements so the work you do replacing shims only need to be done once.

As for chain stretch, align the intake cam perfectly to the valve cover flat keeping in mind that parralax is a factor. Do so by rotating crank clockwise.

With intake aligned perfectly, how far past TDC is the T on the crank? A perfect parralax free picture of crank and exhaust would be good!
If a degree wheel were on the crank you could measure each cams amout of retard from ideal.

In the manual they say to replace chain and gears as a set. Keep that in mind.

One back together and if still noisy, I'd remove all of the clutch plates, throw the cover back on and fire it up.

 

[bigborer]

Yes, wear bar between the cams on the cover. I cant tell how deep the groves are.

Yes, check all valves now. Notice the base circle of the cam lobes are over 200°. That said, a couple degrees off from ideal measurement points is not factor. More important is accurate repeatable measurements so the work you do replacing shims only need to be done once.

As for chain stretch, align the intake cam perfectly to the valve cover flat keeping in mind that parralax is a factor. Do so by rotating crank clockwise.

With intake aligned perfectly, how far past TDC is the T on the crank? A perfect parralax free picture of crank and exhaust would be good!
If a degree wheel were on the crank you could measure each cams amout of retard from ideal.

In the manual they say to replace chain and gears as a set. Keep that in mind.

One back together and if still noisy, I'd remove all of the clutch plates, throw the cover back on and fire it up.

Here is a clearer picture of the wear grooves:


Here are the measurements for the clearances, in .xx millimeters, done twice (click on the picture):

Reference values are Intake: 0.13–0.20 mm
Exhaust: 0.23–0.30 mm

With intake aligned perfectly, how far past TDC is the T on the crank?

A few degrees. I can measure with a protractor for better precision. If you want I could take a higher resolution picture with the dslr, to get a full perspective of all 3 timing markings.

As for replacing the chain together with the sprockets I did read about that in the manual, and know from cycling that worn sprockets will quickly "stretch" a new chain, but if the sprockets aren't really that worn, it will still work fine with only a new chain.

 

[bigborer]

Here is the crank marking with the intake cam perfectly aligned (as shown in the manual)

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The LINE on the rotor appears to be too high from the case mark, its NOT at TDC

Your NOT supposed to line up the rotor part that sticks out, the imprinted line on the rotor
is what your lining up.

Those are what should be aligned..


Line that up EXACTLY and your exhaust cam marks are out even further (all cam marks actually)





.

 

[FinalImpact]

Scott, if you read my post I asked him to align the intake only to see approximately how many degrees of crank rotation the worn chain allows. There you see it. The section of chain from intake over the exhaust and down to the crank allow roughly 2° to 3° degrees of rotation.

JM2C but that is not so out of spec to cause a noticeable performance loss to most riders. And if the rear guide isn't busted, doesn't explain the noise.

I'd opt for adjusting the valves and then pull the clutch plates to seperate the engine from the transmission and see if the sound can be isolated.

This may not even equate to 2°... just guessing...

 

[bigborer]

The valves don't seem to require any adjustment.
The rear guide didn't show any major damage or grooves.

The gasket doesn't look like it's in top shape, and it would definitely require some of that liquid high temperature gasket to make it stick to the top cover. So at the very least, I'd need a new gasket. If I place the order today, it'll take 2-3 weeks to arrive.

My options are:
1- patch the gasket, keep the current chain, mount the radiator and everything else, remove clutch plates and run it like that
2- order and wait for a new gasket and chain, and hope that the noise will be gone after mounting it all back
3- take apart the clutch and whatever else is mounted on the sides of the engine, look for any loose screws or worn bearings or other issues, and then do no2

 

[FinalImpact]

Refresh me how many Kms ridden on two cylinders?
And what was the average and max RPM pulled over said distance on 2 cyl?

Also, have changed the oil yet? Did it ever smell like fuel?
Do you have access to video cam you could feed into spark plug hole?

My thoughts are towards piston/wristpin noise but honestly no clue.

If no adjustments are needed and you extracted the rear guide for inspection, my next move would be cutting open the oil filter and looking for debris.

If the oil smells of fuel, replace it. Then remove clutch plates.

The thing is I have heard that noise but never knew the cause of it.

 

[bigborer]

Thanks, I've answered in bold:

Refresh me how many Kms ridden on two cylinders? first time ~20km, perhaps a few km in between, and then finally about ~80km
And what was the average and max RPM pulled over said distance on 2 cyl? 3800avg, under 6000max

Also, have changed the oil yet? Did it ever smell like fuel? No, and the one smearing the valves does smell like gas, I'll also smell the dipstick tomorrow. But theoretically, ECU should have cut off the injection for cylinders 1 and 4, so there should have been no gas washing away the oil
Do you have access to video cam you could feed into spark plug hole? Yes, but I haven't tried to get it through the hole yet, will try to check that tomorrow as well

My thoughts are towards piston/wristpin noise but honestly no clue.

If no adjustments are needed and you extracted the rear guide for inspection, my next move would be cutting open the oil filter and looking for debris. I think I'll do that as well

If the oil smells of fuel, replace it. Then remove clutch plates.

The thing is I have heard that noise but never knew the cause of it. Was that on your bike?

 

[FinalImpact]

No. Car engine. Chevrolet V8. Older pushrod engine no overhead cams. Also on old worn out VW flat four engine. I don't want to rain on your parade or speculate much without facts so I'll stop here.

Coolant system didn't boil over or anything get pushed into it? Perhaps remove rad cap and inspect...

You have a mystery sound there. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Can you get a leak down tester and air compressor? You really need to verify the #1 cylinder (and others are sealing correctly).

In your earlier posts you pointed at the valve cover, right side, as I guess, a noisy area.

Remember now, that valve cover will echo ANY cam chain slop / rubbing in the engine.

IMO, the chain is worn, maybe not a lot, but it's worn.

I would replace it and a new automatic, stock CCT if your at your wits end, just to rule it out.

Much cheaper than a chain jumping and destroying valves, pistons, etc...Preventive maintenance in any event (see below)


As a side note, my Yamaha 150HP, 4 stroke outboard engine developed what sounded like a "worn
cam shaft belt" (which it has a cam BELT). I ended buying a new $400 BALANCER (literally balances the engine)
to the latest version. Installed it yesterday and sure enough, the noise went away, completely! (50 hours on the old unit)

*Point being, something INSIDE, (and you can see both the block and balancer is NOT thin), made a NEW audible noise that has
NOT been there for TEN years (since new).



And the balancer itself (quite heavy):

 

[bigborer]

No. Car engine. Chevrolet V8. Older pushrod engine no overhead cams. Also on old worn out VW flat four engine. I don't want to rain on your parade or speculate much without facts so I'll stop here.

Coolant system didn't boil over or anything get pushed into it? Perhaps remove rad cap and inspect...

You have a mystery sound there. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Coolant was fine, had to drain it before removing the radiator and it looked like new, red and clean.

 

[bigborer]

Can you get a leak down tester and air compressor? You really need to verify the #1 cylinder (and others are sealing correctly).

In your earlier posts you pointed at the valve cover, right side, as I guess, a noisy area.

Remember now, that valve cover will echo ANY cam chain slop / rubbing in the engine.

IMO, the chain is worn, maybe not a lot, but it's worn.

I would replace it and a new automatic, stock CCT if your at your wits end, just to rule it out.

Much cheaper than a chain jumping and destroying valves, pistons, etc...Preventive maintenance in any event (see below)

The best I could do for an leak down tester is to try to build a rig with some pressure gauges, pipe, and an 12v tire inflater compressor. A leak down test would make sense right now, especially with the top cover off, though the chance of it being related to valve issues is quite low.

As for the CCT, I've already spent 70€ on the manual APE CCT and I'm very sure it's not it, if I buy an OEM one I'll throw away another 200€. I know not everybody is a fan of manual tensioners but setting one isn't rocket science and as long as it doesn't unscrew and it gets retightened every once in a while it should perform as good as OEM (or even better has it gives the chance of fine adjusting the pressure). Also, most noise was in top left area. I will however replace the chain, as it's only 50€ and definitely not in it's best shape. Most likely I'll put new spark plugs as well (7€/piece).

Next thing I'll try is to drain the oil inside a transparent container, and check for sediments after sitting overnight. Then I'll just begin to tear apart everything, starting from the easiest/quickest, in this order: shift shaft, clutch, stator, starter, gearbox, cylinder head, crankcase. I see no other option...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The cylinder and rings is more of what I'd want to know their condition.

You'd need 90-100 PSI steady pressure to evaluate.

I've never heard valves make a scraping noise when failed. (Unless the valve broke and is bouncing around the combustion chamber)

Even to pressurize the cylinder (compression stroke @TDC, crank shaft LOCKED UP)
then listen to the oil fill hole (crankcase for air bypassing rings-which it should NOT)