Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[bigborer]

Spark plug gap is a little wide but not bad..

How much pressure you putting on that chain pulling it away???

Unless your pulling super hard, it should NOT be that loose and will rattle up against the inner engine.

The pressure is probably a bit more than what would be needed to lift the chain off the ground if it were loose, so little to none. With super hard pressure it would have probably moved at least 4-5mm more.

Thanks for the tip! I'll do it tomorrow.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Great job, that chain is way too loose

Sounds like you (and Cliff) found the issue, definitely the chain and /or tensioner (likely both).

The tensioner is likely fully extended so your probably looking at replacing all the above.

Being your due for a valve check anyway, it can all be done at the same time, so that's good...


More $ but with regular maintenance and you'll get 50,000 miles out of the new chain/tensioner, etc...
Good thing you caught it BEFORE it jumped a tooth and destroyed the engine...

 

[bigborer]

Thanks, just ordered an APE manual tensioner on ebay, with some luck I'll get it till the end of this week. Hopefully it will at least buy me a few more weekends until taking it all apart L(

 

[gulfpete]

Just a tip, when you pull the CCT make sure you keep pressure on the chain. It can jump a tooth on the cams otherwise, especially with a worn chain.

If that happens a piston can whack into a valve, not cheap to fix.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just a tip, when you pull the CCT make sure you keep pressure on the chain. It can jump a tooth on the cams otherwise, especially with a worn chain..

+1 ^^^.

The zip tie mentioned earlier works great for this.

Just put the tie around the front and rear runs, sung up, then change out the CCT..

 

[bigborer]

The APE tensioner should (hopefully) arrive by tomorrow.

Can anyone tell me how could I lock the old tensioner in it's place? As I've seen on youtube, the moment it is free with no force against it it will jump to full extension, so then I'll have no way of knowing what it's previous level of extension was...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The APE tensioner should (hopefully) arrive by tomorrow.

Can anyone tell me how could I lock the old tensioner in it's place? As I've seen on youtube, the moment it is free with no force against it it will jump to full extension, so then I'll have no way of knowing what it's previous level of extension was...

When you simply loosen the two retaining bolts to the CCT, I suspect it's already fully extended and WON'T PUSH OUT AT ALL.

If it does push out some, you'll see how far (if any) the CCT was working / cam chain stretch.

On page 5-13 in the S2 SHOP MANUAL, it states how to re-install the tensioner: Basically, keep pressure on the tensioner and turn the screw clockwise to wind it in, about the same as below..

Below pic is my CCT (for my old 2005 KLR 250-super long chain). The chain was just replaced and the CCT was fully extended (just for picture taking), about 3/4".
That particular engine, I could screw in the adjuster(under the nut) while pushing the tensioner in towards the block.

.

 

[bigborer]

Thanks, it makes sense

Looks like they are delaying my package for no reason for a few more days...

I do hope that your suspicion is not correct, and that there is still some life left in that cam chain

Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that after replacing the chain/tensioner (which I'm aware are fully or partly done anyway), the noise is still there. What else could it be? The valves probably not, as the noise seems to go away after ~4000rpm or so, so what else? Oil pump? Clutch? Alternator?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The tensioner and chain do wear, some more than others.

I had 2 KLR 250's. One chain lasted 73,000 miles, the other, 28,000 miles before I got the noisy slop that just a CCT wouldn't take up.

My current FZ has 24,000 miles on it and the engine itself is super quiet... It was dogged it's first 4,500 miles before I got it.


Your description earlier of how loose the chain is with the stock CCT (especially if it's fully extended), the APE may take up the slack BUT that chain (again depending on what the stock CCT looks like) is still likely STRETCHED and will need replacement.

Stick with what you KNOW right now is worn. Once you pull the stock CCT, you'll know more.

Fully extended and no tension, that chain SHOULD be replaced, it's stretched.

*Much cheaper than the chain jumping a tooth and destroying the engine...

 

[bigborer]

Will do that, thanks for the input!

After all the reading I've done regarding these engines I got a bit paranoid, thinking what if the bike dies again (I'm aiming for 2 more one week trips round Europe til winter), and what if the engine suddenly seizes and makes me crash (plenty of videos of that on youtube). While being fully aware that such events have a low probability, and even lower without any previous symptoms (and that even new parts could have some microscopic cracks and suddenly fail), at lease for peace of mind I want to make sure I've done every possible check within reason. I won't strip everything apart and have it x-rayed for cracks (although... )) ), but at least I want to make sure I'm not skipping any basic checks.

Timeline of the work:

This week:
-replace tensioner
-check compression
-inspect cylinder (if the endoscopic camera fits the spark plug hole)
-check oil pressure
-ride it, if OEM tensioner is not at full extension/chain is not totally gone

Next month:
-check valve clearance (this is due regardless)
-check camshaft journals and lobes
-check camshaft caps for play
-check sprockets
-check the chain guides
-replace/adjust whatever is necessary
-check compression


GF says I'm getting (way too) crazy , and that my vehicles are already better kept/inspected that 99% of what is rolling on the streets. Perhaps it was better if I was like one of those guys who truly didn't give a ****/didn't know better and rode on 10y old tires, cracked brake hoses, changed the oil only when something went wrong, and when something really went wrong just patch it in whichever way was cheaper, sell it, buy another POS and repeat the cycle.

 

[bigborer]

Good news:
-got the manual tensioner today
-managed to install it with no problem

Bad news:
-changed it mostly for nothing, as the old one apart from some little play still had enough shaft length till full extension (maybe 30%)
-only took away little noise (the little chain rattle noise which was barely audible anyway)
-the constant grinding noise is still there

Here is the tensioner gap:


I spent maybe 20 more minutes listening to it... the noise, which I'd best describe it as the noise a baby of a set of hard skateboard wheels and a vacuum cleaner would make, is still there. To my frustration, even with the stethoscope I was unable to accurately identify the source, however it seems to be originating from this region:

Listening and comparing the sound from all axis: front (especially the place where the gas tank bracket screws in) is much much clearer that the back, left is louder than right, bottom (and under) is much less audible than mid-top.

2 more worrying things: cylinder gasket has a tiny trace of oil around the tensioner (could be from removing the tensioner, or worst a leak- more about this will be told by the compression testing.), and the tensioner had some markings on it (it was definitely taken off before).

Another thing noticed was that it sounded a bit quieter first 1-2 minutes after starting it, and a bit louder after warming up.

Any other opinions before tearing it all apart? Some gearbox axle bearing?

PS: what about some broken/misplaced vacuum or air hoses? Will check that as well tomorrow

 

[Motogiro]

Good news:
-got the manual tensioner today
-managed to install it with no problem

Bad news:
-changed it mostly for nothing, as the old one apart from some little play still had enough shaft length till full extension (maybe 30%)
-only took away little noise (the little chain rattle noise which was barely audible anyway)
-the constant grinding noise is still there

Here is the tensioner gap:
View attachment 68266

I spent maybe 20 more minutes listening to it... the noise, which I'd best describe it as the noise a baby of a set of hard skateboard wheels and a vacuum cleaner would make, is still there. To my frustration, even with the stethoscope I was unable to accurately identify the source, however it seems to be originating from this region:
View attachment 68267
Listening and comparing the sound from all axis: front (especially the place where the gas tank bracket screws in) is much much clearer that the back, left is louder than right, bottom (and under) is much less audible than mid-top.

2 more worrying things: cylinder gasket has a tiny trace of oil around the tensioner (could be from removing the tensioner, or worst a leak- more about this will be told by the compression testing.), and the tensioner had some markings on it (it was definitely taken off before).

Another thing noticed was that it sounded a bit quieter first 1-2 minutes after starting it, and a bit louder after warming up.

Any other opinions before tearing it all apart? Some gearbox axle bearing?

PS: what about some broken/misplaced vacuum or air hoses? Will check that as well tomorrow

I can only assume the APE CCT has been adjusted per recommended procedure?

 

[bigborer]

Partly, because if I started turning the crank with no tension on the chain there was a risk of skipping the timing, so I tensioned it 90% before turning the crank.

Regardless, I've played with the tension a bit, with the engine on, and it made absolutely no difference regarding the grinding noise.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Too lazy to read way back, but it is RPM related, correct?

I doubt it's in the gear box. If you can hear a definite grinding metal to probably metal, I'd be pulling the cam chain cover off first and inspect.
(I know you posted it's likely from the upper left side). Then if nothing obvious, pull the valve cover and inspect.

Your obviously going to be looking for any scrape marks, shavings, etc.

I gather no work was done recently to the left side cover, rotor, stator, etc?

 

[bigborer]

It's not rpm related, it's constant from idle to ~4000 rpm where it either stops or gets completely covered. Clutch on or off makes no diference.

The cam chain cover was pulled to rotate the crank and check chain slack, all looks ok.

Tomorrow I'll take the air box off and also check under it with the stethoscope, and after that probably remove the valve cover and check everything there.

No, since I got it apart from the oil screw nothing from or near the engine was touched.

 

[FinalImpact]

From the micro image I thought you were saying noise is coming from "the bike".... Which made me chuckle... now I see the circle...

How well is the shifting? Any chance the shift mechanism (drum) is not returning to center? As in, this noise could be drag induced by partial gear engagement. Maybe?

I'm not one for running through the gears on the center stand but this is a good candidate. Is there a gear where the noise goes away? Just dont do anything aggressive with the throttle.

Also engine vacuum per cylinder is a good indication of engine balance engine health before doing tear down for compression test. If they are equal and it idles fine, unlikely you find a smoking gun there.

Last little bit - As you traveled the bike was left unattended. Any chance the engine oil had a rogue additive induced?

My path would be oil change and cut open the oil filter for inspection. If metal is found you know you need to dig deeper.

That's what comes to mind...

 

[bigborer]

How well is the shifting? Any chance the shift mechanism (drum) is not returning to center? As in, this noise could be drag induced by partial gear engagement. Maybe?

I'm not one for running through the gears on the center stand but this is a good candidate. Is there a gear where the noise goes away? Just dont do anything aggressive with the throttle.

It could be a possibility. Now that you ask, in the last few hundred kms there were a few times when it "grabbed" in between, especially near neutral, and then it need a slight disengagement of the clutch, or some back and forth movement of the wheels, before finally shifting. I can try running it on the paddock stand.

Also engine vacuum per cylinder is a good indication of engine balance engine health before doing tear down for compression test. If they are equal and it idles fine, unlikely you find a smoking gun there.

Don't have a vacuum gauge to test. The idle, if I remember correctly, was jumping between 1230-1360.

Last little bit - As you traveled the bike was left unattended. Any chance the engine oil had a rogue additive induced?
My path would be oil change and cut open the oil filter for inspection. If metal is found you know you need to dig deeper.

There's always a chance some crazy ****er put something inside your bike but apart from one night in Skiathos, where it sit in the busiest street next to the port, every time it sit locked in some garage or shed.
The oil was changed right before this trip, and now it still looks like it has almost the same color and texture.

 

[bigborer]

So, today I rolled it till 50km/h and 4th or 5th gear on the paddock stand, and there was no change in the noise.

Took off the air filter box, and the noise got at least 30% louder, definitely coming from the top intake region but even with the stethoscope it wasn't possible to get an accurate localization.

Idle speed- took a closer look at it, it started good at 1320-1350rpm and got worse as it warmed up, to 950-1380rpm.

Tomorrow, if I'll have the time, I'll check the compression and valve clearance. Then it will be a guaranteed 3 week wait for the new gasket and any other parts necessary.

By now it's been almost one month since it has broken down and I do miss riding it, but I've already gotten used to the idea of expecting not much to none riding time for this season, so until March 2018 I should have more than enough time to take apart every single part and bolt.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

You can re-use the valve cover gasket (un-less it's damaged).

 

[FinalImpact]

I suppose that helps knowing exposure from air box made it louder. Perhaps remove the entire air box for a better look?
JM2C but with the air box removed, use a screw driver or large wood dowel vs stethoscope and see if that helps.

Is this one where it might be worthwhile to remove tje clutch discs & plates, reassemble and start it? It leaves the primary gear set for noise but removes the trans from the equation. Just a thought.