Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

[MIJ_FZ6]

Finalmpact had a thread on a home made injector test / cleaning the injectors.

I personally would send them out for professional cleaning.

There's a place in Punta Gorda or Port Charlotte (Florida) that tests and cleans them (forgot the name).
This place is recommended by a Master-tech ("Rod-bolt", on the below forum) for Yamaha out board engines.


I thought I had the place saved but don't. This is the site if you want to do a search:

Yamaha Outboard Forum - Yamaha Outboard Parts Forum

These guys are out of Cali:

Fuel injector flow matching

 

[tom_nuke]

Finalmpact had a thread on a home made injector test / cleaning the injectors.

I personally would send them out for professional cleaning.

There's a place in Punta Gorda or Port Charlotte (Florida) that tests and cleans them (forgot the name).
This place is recommended by a Master-tech ("Rod-bolt", on the below forum) for Yamaha out board engines.


I thought I had the place saved but don't. This is the site if you want to do a search:

Yamaha Outboard Forum - Yamaha Outboard Parts Forum

Thanks for the reference, some really good threads over there. Looks like I need to contact Flagship Marine in Punta Gorda.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That's IT, Flagship Marine!!!

Punta Gorda's about 35 minutes north of me..

 

[FinalImpact]

Having been here since 2011 I'm going to say I have not seen one documented injector failure. Not one. Lots of people went looking and yes the found injectors that were not 99.9999% balanced but I can say they had other issues.

Buy some coils from a lower mileage dry state S1. I say this as humidity impacts high voltage devices. If nothing pops up, go for low mileage S1.
I bet you find your issue.

Like I said, the vibes got so bad on some rides I wanted to dump the bike and walk home. Swapped coils and she's been healed ever since....

#S1 coils!

Good luck!

 

[tom_nuke]

Having been here since 2011 I'm going to say I have not seen one documented injector failure. Not one. Lots of people went looking and yes the found injectors that were not 99.9999% balanced but I can say they had other issues.

Buy some coils from a lower mileage dry state S1. I say this as humidity impacts high voltage devices. If nothing pops up, go for low mileage S1.
I bet you find your issue.

Like I said, the vibes got so bad on some rides I wanted to dump the bike and walk home. Swapped coils and she's been healed ever since....

#S1 coils!

Good luck!

Last week I grabbed some coils with wires and HT leads from ebay. Hard to know the source of the parts (geographically speaking), but they were from an S1. They appear to be identical to mine, but none the less I set out to installing them this morning.

While I had the old and new parts removed, I did some resistance testing. Here is what I found:

Old coils and wires - resistance within spec on both primary and secondary
Old leads - All 4 were reading anywhere from 8.2k to 8.5k ohms. Manual says should be exactly 10k ohm.

New coils and wires - resistance within spec on both primary and secondary
New leads - 2 leads read 10.2ohm and 10.4k ohm and other 2 read 9.6k ohm. They matched the coil packs, meaning the 2 reading high were on 1/4 and the 2 reading low were on 2/3

I made sure when I installed the new coils to keep the matching lead sets with the coils they originally were found. I also took the opportunity to do the cure for vibes, cutting off the ends of the wires for a nice fresh connection into the HT leads.

Got everything installed... but no bueno. Vibes still there..

Injectors are next, found a place near my work that will service them for $18 each, so they've been pulled and waiting to be dropped off Monday.

Appreciate everyone's advice.. I will keep plugging away at this thing.

Tom

 

[FinalImpact]

Last week I grabbed some coils with wires and HT leads from ebay. Hard to know the source of the parts (geographically speaking), but they were from an S1. They appear to be identical to mine, but none the less I set out to installing them this morning.

While I had the old and new parts removed, I did some resistance testing. Here is what I found:

Old coils and wires - resistance within spec on both primary and secondary
Old leads - All 4 were reading anywhere from 8.2k to 8.5k ohms. Manual says should be exactly 10k ohm.

New coils and wires - resistance within spec on both primary and secondary
New leads - 2 leads read 10.2ohm and 10.4k ohm and other 2 read 9.6k ohm. They matched the coil packs, meaning the 2 reading high were on 1/4 and the 2 reading low were on 2/3

I made sure when I installed the new coils to keep the matching lead sets with the coils they originally were found. I also took the opportunity to do the cure for vibes, cutting off the ends of the wires for a nice fresh connection into the HT leads.

Got everything installed... but no bueno. Vibes still there..

Injectors are next, found a place near my work that will service them for $18 each, so they've been pulled and waiting to be dropped off Monday.

Appreciate everyone's advice.. I will keep plugging away at this thing.

Tom

Well damn, that sucks. So what plugs did you end up with and what gap? How long have they been in there?

Please explain exactly when the vibe begins, where you feel it, every detail. And you are saying this made zero change!! Is that correct?

And you are saying you had the ceramic resistors out, cleaned all the contacts and they ohmed the values listed with the caps assembled but NOT attached to the wires. Correct? I ask as I had a cap that once assembled had like 70k ohms. I placed some fine grit sand paper on a dowel and spun it in the cap where the spring and resistor go. It then ohmed exactly the resistor value.

Good luck and I'm glad your still in the fight!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Plus 1, ^^, what plugs did you go with and gap?

 

[tom_nuke]

Well damn, that sucks. So what plugs did you end up with and what gap? How long have they been in there?

Please explain exactly when the vibe begins, where you feel it, every detail. And you are saying this made zero change!! Is that correct?

And you are saying you had the ceramic resistors out, cleaned all the contacts and they ohmed the values listed with the caps assembled but NOT attached to the wires. Correct? I ask as I had a cap that once assembled had like 70k ohms. I placed some fine grit sand paper on a dowel and spun it in the cap where the spring and resistor go. It then ohmed exactly the resistor value.

Good luck and I'm glad your still in the fight!

To test the resistance of the HT lead, I just put the meter leads inside the bottom of the HT lead where the spark plugs would connect and the top where the wire screws in. I wasn't aware that the HT lead came apart, that may be a better way to test (and inspect). If I'm feeling up to tearing all that apart again, I may check the HT leads one more time.

The plugs were replaced at the same time as the timing chain (2 weeks old, less than 200 miles on them). I went for the CR9E (i like the single strap argument). They were gapped at .028 out of the box, so I left them as is and installed them. Would it be worth pulling them and re-gapping to something on the smaller end of the allowed tolerance?

BTW, hoping to have injectors back today. The report may or may not yield more evidence.

Tom

**edit** Forgot to add more info on the vibes. It feels like an unbalanced engine at all times. I can feel it in the the seat, foot pegs, handlebars. It was not like this when I bought it. You know when you use a pressure washer and the gun has a vibration to it from the pump? It's always there and it might make your hands tingle during or after. This is like that. I wish I could have a current/former FZ6 rider test ride this thing. It all started around at 12K miles. Honestly, I can remember when it happened, we were out on a group ride and I had to stop for gas. Right after that day, this started happening. After several techron and seafoam treatments, I discounted this to a fuel related problem. Hell, I even pulled the fuel pump to make sure it wasn't clogged with sh!t.

I picked up my serviced injectors, sadly I didn't get a before and after report since the "filters were really dirty" and this would "damage their testing machine". (really?) Won't know until tonight if the injectors were the culprit.

I thought this was unrelated, but occasionally I will get hard start when the bike is warm. Also used to get some "bogging" down (bogs for a split second) when hot and idling in traffic. It was doing the bogging down before the vibration started, so I left that bit out. Not sure it's a TB adjustment, or a sign of something worse.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Everything you said about the injectors, especially with the filters really dirty, COULD VERY WELL be the issue. No fuel going to a cylinder means no power from that cylinder..

I'd leave the sparks plugs as is. Just in the future, as they wear the gap opens up. I adjust to the tight end of spec's (for that reason) and as they wear, their still in spec's.

Good luck, post back it's FIXED!!

 

[tom_nuke]

Put in the cleaned injectors. Runs better now, the fueling and throttle response is much improved. Time will tell if the hard starts and bogging are also cured.

BUT.. vibrations are still there..

At this point, I don't know what else to look at. I think it's time to start looking lower on the bike.. which usually means the $$$ goes up..

FI mentioned it sounded a little like the bike with the embedded clutch material on the main gear (I'm sure that's not what it's called). Might be the next place I look, not that it appears easy to fix..

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Can you get a hold of a laser temp gun and point at the very top of the headers when the bikes up to temp?

Just trying to rule out the engine output delivery (ALL cylinders performing the same) vs something physically out of balance.

 

[tom_nuke]

Can you get a hold of a laser temp gun and point at the very top of the headers when the bikes up to temp?

Just trying to rule out the engine output delivery (ALL cylinders performing the same) vs something physically out of balance.

Yep, I'll try this tomorrow and post back with results.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

 

[FinalImpact]

Minor repeat from me.
On mine there was zero discernible performance loss. Starts fine, idles fine, revs, pulls through all gears at all speeds. But does not have a nice clean note from the tail.

The ugly was that at like 45 or 4700 rpm to 9k it made vibes that made your @ss sore! Hands and feet less so, but noticeable.

Mind you TB does nothing after 3.5 to 4k.

So if this is anything like mine, please revisit the ignition. Unscrew the caps from the wires and ohm the caps from plug connect to wire connect.
And don't hesitate to ohm the plugs too. They should be 5k ohm from input to electrode.

Trim the plug wires and fan out the strands 360°, screw the caps down until snug and zip tie the cap to the HT lead.

Good luck and thanks for hanging in there!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just to clarify Tom, I'm under the impression you have a BAD VIB, (like a cylinder not hitting).

Or is it more of a buzziness, can't see thru thru the mirrors, numbs the hands, etc?


Final Impacts above post CAN cause loss of spark in a cylinder, the temp gun will show what the problem cylinder is, IF it is a cylinder not at 100%

 

[FinalImpact]

Just to clarify Tom, I'm under the impression you have a BAD VIB, (like a cylinder not hitting).

Or is it more of a buzziness, can't see thru thru the mirrors, numbs the hands, etc?


Final Impacts above post CAN cause loss of spark in a cylinder, the temp gun will show what the problem cylinder is, IF it is a cylinder not at 100%

No it doesn't nor did it ever loose spark, power, or drop a hole. It always ran fine. But over 4500 it could develop an @ss numbing vibe while out on a ride. Much Like OP is saying. And it was not this way when I bought it with 4k on the clock.

In the realm of inductance induced field collapse and waste spark coils, I believe the waste spark is of no consequence. However the discharge from these two coils if the capacitance is different it makes a tiny shift in when the coils unload their energy.

At 6000 rpm the two coils have to deliver 3000X4 sparks. So at a fixed RPM each spark should be equal in duration (dwell) time and delivered at each cylinder at the same crankshaft position (angle). But every coil is an inductor. Every inductor has resistance and capacitance (RC), because the R value on the secondary coil is so huge (plug is 5k ohms, ceramic resistor 10k ohms, coil winding ?? Ohms) and these R values can vary by 2000 to 4000 ohms clearly they have little impact on spark timing. Thus it is the C value that changes the coils discharge time in relation to the crankshafts angle.

Unfortunately none of us own a meter capable of measuring capacitance of an operational circuit.

That tiny shift or imbalance of spark discharge timing between the two cylinder sets creates this harmonic vibration.

Dead or lean cylinders create a very different vibe. One of substantial power loss. This has little power loss but sparks not delivered at the proper crankshaft angle do not accelerate the crankshaft at proportional angles and this is felt by the rider as a resonance or harmonic vibration.

 

[FinalImpact]

Think of it as a marching band out of step. A band with a few instruments off note. Still playing. Still contributing. But off just enough to be noticed!
In this case it takes on a resonance as the cranks velocity is not being accelerated at equivalent times. Off just a nats @ss.

 

[tom_nuke]

Small update, took temps after getting home from work yesterday afternoon. This may thrown off results since the radiator fan was running. In a nutshell, each header was showing anywhere from 270F to 310F. I didn't see any cylinders that were outside of that range at any time, but they did vary which may be more with my tester and other environmental factors (rad fan, distance from header, angle, etc).

Describing the vibrations is tough. It's not a buzziness, I've experienced that before hand (buzziness at 4K RPMs for example). This is a constant vibration closer to a miss, but not quite as prominent. It's present as soon as the bike is started and is felt all the way to redline. From memory, the engine sounds different than before, even the exhaust might sound different (been too long since this change occurred). It feels more mechanical than harmonic, if that makes sense.

Regarding FI on repeat - I'll also go on repeat - When replacing the coils, I did trim the wire ends and spread out the conductor strands before re threading the HT leads back onto the wires. I did not zip tie the wire, but other steps were already performed (AND were performed previously on the original coils and wires 2 years back when all this started). This has had no effect on this current vibration.

 

[FinalImpact]

Hmmm.... sounds like you have a genuine Virgin of a problem here!


Thanks. Those details matter as we're all running on text here.

Mine you could not feel at idle to 4k. That is big dividing line.

Have you ever heard this engine detonate or ping? And forgive me, were we not also suspect of the clutch blowing up (tho you found it 100% in tact).
Any evidence **ANYONE** was in there before you? As in, it blew up, damaged gears and had new discs installed?

Help me out here; did you also say that it was fine when you got it and that this is new? I think so.

This is a tough one. Cracked piston. But why? Broken skirt. But why?

I'm at a loss!

 

[tom_nuke]

Hmmm.... sounds like you have a genuine Virgin of a problem here!


Thanks. Those details matter as we're all running on text here.

Mine you could not feel at idle to 4k. That is big dividing line.

Have you ever heard this engine detonate or ping? And forgive me, were we not also suspect of the clutch blowing up (tho you found it 100% in tact).
Any evidence **ANYONE** was in there before you? As in, it blew up, damaged gears and had new discs installed?

Help me out here; did you also say that it was fine when you got it and that this is new? I think so.

This is a tough one. Cracked piston. But why? Broken skirt. But why?

I'm at a loss!

I've not heard the engine detonate or ping. However, it does sound "different" now.

The problem started during my ownership. The bike ran great when purchased and then one day, not so much..

You mentioned it sounds like a quieter version of the blown up clutch embedded gear bike. FZ6 experts, what do I need to test for this? Run out gauge of some sort? Anything visual I can inspect/measure in the absence of special equipment?

To add insult to injury, I had a feeling the manual tensioner was too tight.. so I loosened her up and proceeded to re adjust. Well I guess I loosened her up a *bit* too much and as I was rotating the crank heard the tell tale timing chain skipping noise. Half-assed opened the valve cover and sure-as-**** the cam gears are off. So now I'm off to tear the top apart, again, to re-align everything. Yay

 

[FinalImpact]

Uhg.... damn. Yep, done did it now. Sorry man.

I could be mistaken but I would think the noise from a blown up disc would be just that a noise and if it induced a vibration it would lesson over time and not get worse.
As you stated, since you've owned it, it was vibration free and got worse.

In short a clutch disc (aluminum) goes between the cranks primary gear and the clutch gear. Often times this leads to aluminum being bonded to the steel gears makingn a very rhythmic fixed sound that varies with rpm and to a lesser extent load on the final drive.

The gears if they are the cause, would show some form of deflection. Damage. A different sheen when compared to others.

I know I asked but did you find any trace of the case being opened before you got there??

I would love to hear and ride this.... Just to know if it's the same issue.