Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

[tom_nuke]

Glad the internals are tight, we can rule that out.

***Those plugs look bad and very worn, BUT #3, the electrode is GONE*** .

That large a gap, I doubt any spark is jumping (dead cylinder)

Now, besides replacing the plugs (try OEMs please) and make sure you have the correct heat range.

With #3 plug being as such, it's possible the coil is damaged from it sending spark with no where (ground is too far away) to go.

Check for spark with the new plugs in the wires, grounded to the engine BUT not installed in the holes..


Can you post the gaps of those plugs just for S&G's please. Gap should be .024-.028"

Hi Scott,

I'll post some gaps when I get the chance to head out to the garage today. Those were NGK CR9EIX plugs installed about 12K miles ago.

What is recommended these days? It looks like I have Nickel, Platinum and Iridium options available.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[FinalImpact]

You have to wonder how that happened!!
Can you zoom in and verify all the porcelain is there?
Hopefully whatever left just blew harmlessly out the exhaust.

This should make that little I4 much happier with 4 fresh plugs!

Bike seems happy with the single ground strap nickle plugs. CR9E no K and their a lot easier to gap too. Certainly never had a failure like that.

 

[tom_nuke]

You have to wonder how that happened!!
Can you zoom in and verify all the porcelain is there?
Hopefully whatever left just blew harmlessly out the exhaust.

This should make that little I4 much happier with 4 fresh plugs!

Bike seems happy with the single ground strap nickle plugs. CR9E no K and their a lot easier to gap too. Certainly never had a failure like that.

If you look at the last pic with all 4 plugs, you can see the electrode is still there, but it appears the electrode is shorter / missing the end bit, is that the ceramic piece you're referring to?

I seem to recall a conversation on the forums about spark plugs, the single strap argument was why I went for the Iridium plugs (and I could find them pretty easy locally). With around 12K on them maybe they've exceeded their serviceable life?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Hi Scott,

I'll post some gaps when I get the chance to head out to the garage today. Those were NGK CR9EIX plugs installed about 12K miles ago.

What is recommended these days? It looks like I have Nickel, Platinum and Iridium options available.

Thanks,

Tom

Yea, those WERE Iridium's. Their SUPPOSED to last almost indefinitely, 12k miles, WOW. That cylinder definitely is NOT HITTING(WORKING).
Hopefully it didn't take out a coil

The stock plugs are the TWO STRAP GROUND, NGKs, CR9EK


* I installed Iridium's probably 12,000 miles ago, no issues, at the time, my original plugs had about 10K miles on them and looked brand new. Next change, OEM plugs are going back in. I did find the iridiums did wear as the gap opened (gap opens as ALL plugs wear). They were checked before they went in and later found the gaps to be slightly larger (NOTHING like yours).

Randy or Cliff, that one plug (at least), will that cook a coil with literally NO ground (electrode GONE!)?


IME, with two grounds, you'll get half the wear as two grounds share the wear.

As long as you have spark (tested as noted earlier with plugs in wires, grounded to the block), new plugs are very, very likely your issue.

I do remember reading that iridium plugs can ONLY be checked with a "Wire feeler Gauge" or you'll damage the precious metal and plugs are junk. Adjustment is also made ONLY on the ground strap. That may be what happened as I've never seen that before.


Do you have the owners manual? The stock plugs, how to adjust / check, etc is in there. If not, PM me with the year bike and an e-mail address and I'll send you the PDF..

 

[tom_nuke]

Yea, those WERE Iridium's. Their SUPPOSED to last almost indefinitely, 12k miles, WOW. That cylinder definitely is NOT HITTING(WORKING).
Hopefully it didn't take out a coil

The stock plugs are the TWO STRAP GROUND, NGKs, CR9EK


* I installed Iridium's probably 12,000 miles ago, no issues, at the time, my original plugs had about 10K miles on them and looked brand new. Next change, OEM plugs are going back in. I did find the iridiums did wear as the gap opened (gap opens as ALL plugs wear). They were checked before they went in and later found the gaps to be slightly larger (NOTHING like yours).

Randy or Cliff, that one plug (at least), will that cook a coil with literally NO ground (electrode GONE!)?


IME, with two grounds, you'll get half the wear as two grounds share the wear.

As long as you have spark (tested as noted earlier with plugs in wires, grounded to the block), new plugs are very, very likely your issue.

I do remember reading that iridium plugs can ONLY be checked with a "Wire feeler Gauge" or you'll damage the precious metal and plugs are junk. Adjustment is also made ONLY on the ground strap. That may be what happened as I've never seen that before.


Do you have the owners manual? The stock plugs, how to adjust / check, etc is in there. If not, PM me with the year bike and an e-mail address and I'll send you the PDF..

Hi Scott,

The original pics may be making these plugs look worse than they actually are. Let me upload some better pics..





Here are gaps as they currently sit (had to carefully use a feeler gauge, can't find my regular wire gauge):

.031 / .032 / .034 / .033

Are these worth trying to re-gap and check how they fire? Or just replace?

I still have the bike apart, haven't decided if I want to replace the timing chain yet.

Is there a way to test the coils with a multi-meter?

I do have the FSM, I'll be looking through it as well.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[tom_nuke]

Hi Scott,

The original pics may be making these plugs look worse than they actually are. Let me upload some better pics..

View attachment 69288

View attachment 69289

Here are gaps as they currently sit (had to carefully use a feeler gauge, can't find my regular wire gauge):

.031 / .032 / .034 / .033

Are these worth trying to re-gap and check how they fire? Or just replace?

I still have the bike apart, haven't decided if I want to replace the timing chain yet.

Is there a way to test the coils with a multi-meter?

I do have the FSM, I'll be looking through it as well.

Thanks,

Tom

Scratch the coils, I found how to test them in the FSM. They checked out fine.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

They still look bad and are extremely worn (up to .010" OVER) just by the "worn gap" vs what they should be.

You now know the internal physical health of the mechanicals are good. We know the plugs are worn badly and way out of spec.

Plugs are cheap and the OEMs can be ordered at any auto parts store (fairly cheap actually).

That little bit of chain stretch would not cause nearly as crappy running as just ONE of those spark plugs.


*As a side note, I have a Yamaha F150 HP outboard engine, low hours (in-line 4, 4 valves per cylinder, approx 2300cc). I had a running issue years ago, WOT should run approx. 6,000 RPMs. The engine would run to 4800 and roughly 5,500. Thinking it was the filters or old fuel I spoke with the local marina. With less than 150 hours on the engine, the spark plugs looked brand new, gap well within spec. They said the plugs should have been changed a LONG time ago. WTH, bought some plugs & installed them. That was it! Engine was running back to 6,000 WOT!! Friggin spark plugs!

 

[tom_nuke]

They still look bad and are extremely worn (up to .010" OVER) just by the "worn gap" vs what they should be.

You now know the internal physical health of the mechanicals are good. We know the plugs are worn badly and way out of spec.

Plugs are cheap and the OEMs can be ordered at any auto parts store (fairly cheap actually).

That little bit of chain stretch would not cause nearly as crappy running as just ONE of those spark plugs.


*As a side note, I have a Yamaha F150 HP outboard engine, low hours (in-line 4, 4 valves per cylinder, approx 2300cc). I had a running issue years ago, WOT should run approx. 6,000 RPMs. The engine would run to 4800 and roughly 5,500. Thinking it was the filters or old fuel I spoke with the local marina. With less than 150 hours on the engine, the spark plugs looked brand new, gap well within spec. They said the plugs should have been changed a LONG time ago. WTH, bought some plugs & installed them. That was it! Engine was running back to 6,000 WOT!! Friggin spark plugs!

So what is your opinion on the single strap / dual strap argument?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So what is your opinion on the single strap / dual strap argument?

Besides being OEM,

(1)IME, with two grounds, you'll get half the wear as two grounds share the wear.

(2) Iridium's do NOT last forever (as posted, I've measured wear-larger gap) with less miles than the stock plugs in your case.

(3) As your plugs show, they wore out MANY miles ago, with gaps NOW, that bike shouldn't even run...

(4) Precious metal plugs (Iridiums) are VERY easy to damage. Just checking them WITHOUT a "wire type" feeler gauge can damage them.

(5) If you look at the ground straps on the stock plugs, the GROUNDS have a curve that follows the electrode- Now you have TWO of those. To check the gap on those, you HAVE to use a wire gauge as the space in the middle IS CURVED. They are not easily damaged simply by using a wrong feeler gauge.


In your case, ANY NEW spark plugs will likely solve your issue..

Some interesting reading: https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9689

 

[FinalImpact]

My beef w the side strap ground is the gap changes as the side of the electrode wears. The single strap fires off the end and simply wears and rounds off but the gap changes very little over time.

I've been running CR10E's one heat range cooler for 4 years or so. The technology works reliably.
Do note bike has a AFR data logger and fuel controller running a map at ~13.0:1, plus ignition advance, exhaust opened up and all that.

But ya, those plugs should last a long time.

Getting them all close for easy reference viewing.

After 2000 mi with above mentioned mods. Bike is running pretty clean and Hot!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

His Iridium's burned up in 12,000 miles for some reason, Badly... Perhaps someone boogered up the electrodes prior to installation, dunno-but definitely should not have...

My iridiums are working fine as well.

Comparing / measuring wear between the two, the OEMs showed less wear. Once due, OEMs will be going back in.

I didn't find any difference in performance or mileage between either..

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Get it back together yet Tom?

 

[tom_nuke]

Not yet, need to pickup new plugs from the local parts store, but haven't had a chance yet.

Since I've got everything apart and also needed some fork seals (spotted a leaking seal when checking valves), I decided to pickup a new timing chain as well. Hard to go wrong for an additional $23 on an order I was already placing. I will probably look at replacing that this weekend and seeing how the marks line up with a new one in installed. I'll feel better when I get it all back together, that I did everything possible to try and correct the issue.

Will report back soon..

Tom

 

[tom_nuke]

Not yet, need to pickup new plugs from the local parts store, but haven't had a chance yet.

Since I've got everything apart and also needed some fork seals (spotted a leaking seal when checking valves), I decided to pickup a new timing chain as well. Hard to go wrong for an additional $23 on an order I was already placing. I will probably look at replacing that this weekend and seeing how the marks line up with a new one in installed. I'll feel better when I get it all back together, that I did everything possible to try and correct the issue.

Will report back soon..

Tom

Got the new timing chain on tonight, everything is lining up *perfectly* now. I feel better having replaced it while everything was still opened up. Chain definitely had a little stretch to it.

Got everything torqued back down and will get the rest buttoned back up by the weekend (hopefully).

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

 

[Motogiro]

Hi Scott,

The original pics may be making these plugs look worse than they actually are. Let me upload some better pics..

View attachment 69288

View attachment 69289

Here are gaps as they currently sit (had to carefully use a feeler gauge, can't find my regular wire gauge):

.031 / .032 / .034 / .033

Are these worth trying to re-gap and check how they fire? Or just replace?

I still have the bike apart, haven't decided if I want to replace the timing chain yet.

Is there a way to test the coils with a multi-meter?

I do have the FSM, I'll be looking through it as well.

Thanks,

Tom

What often starts out with the gap is the plug manufacturer's factory gap and it is not the proper gap unless you check and properly adjust the ground tang. Never assume the gap is set for your specific application because one plug may be manufactured for multiple engines and there will be a generic gap that may not be proper for your engine specification.

Obviously the Iridium tip is welded to the electrode and should not be used as a leverage point at any time for the purpose of adjusting the gap.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

What often starts out with the gap is the plug manufacturer's factory gap and it is not the proper gap unless you check and properly adjust the ground tang. Never assume the gap is set for your specific application because one plug may be manufactured for multiple engines and there will be a generic gap that may not be proper for you engine specification..

Plus 1 ^^.

When I replaced mine all but one was dead nuts on. One was .001" off than the rest but still in spec...

 

[tom_nuke]

What do you guys normally use to adjust the strap? Pliers? Bench vise?

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

What do you guys normally use to adjust the strap? Pliers? Bench vise?

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

Depends on the plug. A cheap, regular mower plug, simply tap on a hard object(to close the gap), a smaller gauge, placed in-between, wiggled to open it.

GOOD gauges will have a hook end that you "attach" to the ground strap. Your then able to bend the ground closer or farther with never touching the electrode..

 

[tom_nuke]

Well gentlemen, it's been fun so far. but this journey seems to just beginning.

Good news is that I got everything assembled (thank the gods (and Scott :thumbup for the FSM, getting the coils and wires properly arranged would've been nigh impossible without it).

Brakes feel GREAT, new clutch cable feels buttery smooth...

.
.
.

But this GD engine is going to drive me to drink.. so the vibration is still present, and I'd say even a bit stronger after putting about 100 miles on her.

I'm going to start looking at the ignition and fuel systems more closely. Will pull the plugs and check the spark, then probably going to try some used coils and wires after that.

Any suggestions on what else I can check? Any tricks for checking the injectors, etc?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Finalmpact had a thread on a home made injector test / cleaning the injectors.

I personally would send them out for professional cleaning.

There's a place in Punta Gorda or Port Charlotte (Florida) that tests and cleans them (forgot the name).
This place is recommended by a Master-tech ("Rod-bolt", on the below forum) for Yamaha out board engines.


I thought I had the place saved but don't. This is the site if you want to do a search:

Yamaha Outboard Forum - Yamaha Outboard Parts Forum