Did I burn my starter - Cage question

[pulsar2]

My car(Hyundai Tiburon,182k miles on it) doesn't start for some reason. It tries to crank, but quickly dies within a second or so. I checked the battery - even tried jump starting it, but no luck. I dont think the battery has any problem since the lights turn up without any issue and they dont fade if I apply brakes. Also I had just driven the car about 150 miles just before parking it(from Delaware to NY) in the morning.

A couple of things to mention:
- When the car refused to crank, out of frustration(it was freezing here today, and yes :spank I tried to crank it too many times and could smell like something either burnt/got superheated.
- It did try to crank over when connected to another car - like after 10 mins of charging it from another car - the starter did engage for a second or so before it stopped(this was after the burning smell)
-My AC compressor is broken and probably the bearing is damaged too. Since the serpentine belt drives the alternator and the compressor - could this cause any issue?the belt still looks good, but makes squeaking noise till the car heats up.

Any pointers will be helpful before I call in the tow and try to get an estimate for the damage.

 

[dschult2]

It tries to crank, but quickly dies within a second or so.

Do you mean the motor is turning over but wont fire or the starter simply stops trying to turn the motor over? If the car will run for a bit then quit I would look at the fuel pump. If it cranks unevenly or stops after a bit more than likely the starter gear is shot or has grime and grit in it preventing it from engaging the flywheel consistently.

 

[pulsar2]

Do you mean the motor is turning over but wont fire or the starter simply stops trying to turn the motor over? If the car will run for a bit then quit I would look at the fuel pump. If it cranks unevenly or stops after a bit more than likely the starter gear is shot or has grime and grit in it preventing it from engaging the flywheel consistently.

Yes, the engine just turns over a bit, but doesn't fire. It just stops immediately - like the battery is getting overloaded. Since I tried in the afternoon, the engine never fired up.The started did seem to engage the engine - turning it over very slowly before quitting(battery overload?).

 

[kenh]

My car(Hyundai Tiburon,182k miles on it) doesn't start for some reason. It tries to crank, but quickly dies within a second or so. I checked the battery - even tried jump starting it, but no luck. I dont think the battery has any problem since the lights turn up without any issue and they dont fade if I apply brakes. Also I had just driven the car about 150 miles just before parking it(from Delaware to NY) in the morning.

A couple of things to mention:
- When the car refused to crank, out of frustration(it was freezing here today, and yes :spank I tried to crank it too many times and could smell like something either burnt/got superheated.
- It did try to crank over when connected to another car - like after 10 mins of charging it from another car - the starter did engage for a second or so before it stopped(this was after the burning smell)
-My AC compressor is broken and probably the bearing is damaged too. Since the serpentine belt drives the alternator and the compressor - could this cause any issue?the belt still looks good, but makes squeaking noise till the car heats up.

Any pointers will be helpful before I call in the tow and try to get an estimate for the damage.

I take it your car has an automatic trans, but at 182k miles that means many starter cycles. The smell might have been coming from the starter since it apparently had sufficient voltage, but cannot fully engage or rotate flywheel.
As long as your a/c is not on it should not be a problem for the belt since the pulley is designed to spin, however if the bearing is bad it may make a variety of noises but would not keep the engine from starting or running.
Once the starter is removed you will be able to see and or smell something with a closer inspection.

 

[Motogiro]

Look at the voltage of the battery when you engage the starter You should see a static battery voltage ( when nothing is on) of at least 12.6-13.0 VDC. Depending on the condition of the battery and how much current is being drawn by the starter will determine the voltage drop at the battery. During starter engagement you should see at least 12 VDC

The most common problem during any starting failure with a car is the connectors at the battery terminals. Also batteries that are dirty tend to leak current across the top of the battery when the vehicle is not being used. Dish sop, baking soda with and old tooth brush works really well for cleaning the top of your battery.

A starter duty cycle is not long at all and if the car is not starting you should let the starter cool off.

 

[Motogiro]

As long as your a/c is not on it should not be a problem for the belt since the pulley is designed to spin, however if the bearing is bad it may make a variety of noises but would not keep the engine from starting or running.
Once the starter is removed you will be able to see and or smell something with a closer inspection.

^^^^Yes, if the pully on the AC compressor is spinning freely it should be okay but if there is drag your alternator will not get the spin it needs and you then wont charge your battery correctly, hence low starting voltage/current.

 

[kenh]

Another thought, does your engine have a timing belt running to the cam as well as the accessory belt? I had the experience once when it was cold (in Michigan's U.P.) that the geared timing belt jumped a tooth because of temperature and would not start until we loosened the belt tensioner and realigned the index marks and it fired right up.

 

[Motogiro]

Another thought, does your engine have a timing belt running to the cam as well as the accessory belt? I had the experience once when it was cold (in Michigan's U.P.) that the geared timing belt jumped a tooth because of temperature and would not start until we loosened the belt tensioner and realigned the index marks and it fired right up.

Some motors are freewheeling and a jumped tooth just needs a new belt and realignment of the cams. A none free wheeling motor will need a lot of work after the pistons kiss the valves...

 

[yamihoe]

check your muffler bearings and your carburetor belt as well. its very unlikely that youre out of blinker fluid.

 

[FinalImpact]

Sounds like you have two issues - it cranks and does not fire off.
Stater system runs out of velocity (starter speed) to fire engine.


1st issue - is a question, if it cranked for a normal to it period and does not fire, bring a hot pack with and rest it on the ECM to free it of the freeze its under. Like rest it there for 15 min and then by about minute 20 crank it.

2nd issue - burning, slow and no crank speed.
Any bad connections drops voltage and makes heat. After atempting to crank on it (assuming it cranks some) run your hands carefully along all conductors feeling for heat. Areas like battery posts, bends, grounds to the body, grounds to the engine, grounds to the starter, then the positive lead from the battery to the starter or where ever it roams. Anything that is hot is loosing energy needed to crank the electric motor. Also feel the motor if possible. They can and do short internally on the armature and basically self destruct by heating vs being magnet.

Be careful - leads can and do get hot enough to burn if the connection is really poor. Also looked for burned and melted insulation, terminals, connectors and all that.

If sounds like it cranks at the proper speed, for the proper duration. Keep that heat thing in mind that electronics crap out in the cold. The ECM on some vehicles do this.

 

[pulsar2]

2nd issue - burning, slow and no crank speed.

It did feel more like this - not enough crank speed.

One other thing that slipped my mind was - I turned the car off without putting it in park first(it is automatic transmission), and I moved the lever to park with the engine turned off.
Is it possible that the transmission is still engaged(like our bike gets stuck in neutral )?

If sounds like it cranks at the proper speed, for the proper duration. Keep that heat thing in mind that electronics crap out in the cold. The ECM on some vehicles do this.

Although it doesn't crank - this was one of my earlier thoughts - since I parked the car facing the freezing winds on the 8th floor of the parking lot. Something might have been frozen as well.

 

[Motogiro]

Putting it in park after you shut the motor off will have no adverse effect.

I would begin right at the battery terminals. If they seem to be making good contact I would suspect the possibility the battery may have poor depth of charge. Remove the battery and have it load tested. Voltage tests are limited and to really know your source electrical supply is good you must measure the amount of amperage versus voltage versus time to get a picture of the battery's health.

You may have had one problem with the car starting and in fact damaged the starter or wiring by constant cranking. Maybe there was moisture in a fuel line and it froze or a coil failed. No matter how much you crank the motor it will not start. After the excessive cranking the battery may be very low and after it's been badly discharged the electrolyte in the battery can freeze, expanding and damage the internal plates of the battery.

At this point start by establishing you have a healthy battery by load testing it.

 

[FinalImpact]

It did feel more like this - not enough crank speed.

One other thing that slipped my mind was - I turned the car off without putting it in park first(it is automatic transmission), and I moved the lever to park with the engine turned off.
Is it possible that the transmission is still engaged(like our bike gets stuck in neutral )?


Although it doesn't crank - this was one of my earlier thoughts - since I parked the car facing the freezing winds on the 8th floor of the parking lot. Something might have been frozen as well.

I'm not sure if its an option, but you can use a pair of quality jumpers to bypass bad connections.

i.e. jumper from your own battery to engine ground. Test. If it improves, Neg ground is faulty.
Repeat on positive side. ** HOWEVER ** BE WARNED THAT STARTERS WITH NO EXTERNAL SOLENOID WILL BEGIN CRANKING!!!! BE CAREFUL!!!!

This can be a good diagnostic tool. Please note, sparks will fly with 200+AMPs being consumed! Even more sparks if starter has an internal short in the windings.

As far as being stuck in park and impairing start functions, Never heard of it or seen and I've pulled / installed perhaps 500 transmissions of various types. Never was that a complaint.
Replacement starters that are NOT the correct application, YES, things go wrong. Same with flywheels, flex plates etc.

If the cables all look good, try to locate the starter and or an external solenoid. Starters with solenoids attached also have a mechanical contact internal to them acting as a relay. The contacts on the relay can wear to point of not delivering enough current, or the bendix doesn't slide and these can be corrected by solenoid replacement if the starter motor actually runs.

 

[pulsar2]

I got the car towed to a nearby repair shop, and they will be looking into the problem tomorrow. Will keep the thread posted on the updates.

Thanks everyone for suggestions, I hope the mechanics will be able to find the issue soon.

 

[pulsar2]

Just got a call from the repair shop - it was the locked up AC compressor pulley!!! I knew the compressor had seized and the bearing damaged as well - causing a lot of squeaks, but didn't think it would lock up and prevent engine from turning over.
When they removed the belt to the pulley, the car started up without any issue.
Moral of this story for me : Fix any minor problem when you have time - as they will come to haunt you in the worst of times.

And most of the times they strictly follow Murphy's laws - a broken AC compressor causing trouble during a snow storm!!!

 

[FinalImpact]

Interesting - more often than not, the compressor dies but the clutch and idler run the life of a car - (like alternator bearings), but ya, bearings under load that make noise need attention.

Last year my cage w/92,000 miles on it seized the water pump and locked solid never to spin again. No leaks, no drips, no noises. Drove 25 miles that morning, pulled off the freeway.
Once off the freeway I needed to a make a lane adjustment which involved some WOT operation. I jumped it, hit about 7400 RPM, seconds later I'm at a stop light and hear the engine bog down (Hmm that was odd), then I hear this squeal, (Hmm that was odd), then I hear this bang (Hmm that was odd), then there is this VERY STRANGE SMELL (Hmm that was odd). Light turns green, I pull away, work is 3 blocks away. I roll in. Let is sit and idle, rev it. Everything seems normal. Temps, pressures all working. Short drive around the block - all gears work. Park it again. Open hood and see nothing.

At the time I didn't know what happened, and went into work. Brain noodles on issue for a bit and it dawned on me I'd missed the obvious. Car has two belts, 1 on the crank for Alt, PS, AC, and a couple idlers. The other end driven off the CAMSHAFT is another belt for the water pump.

Smoked belt

No Blet.....