Detonation?

[Eldberg]

I recently bought a 2004 FZ6 which now has 4500 miles on it. It's 100% stock, as far as I know. I use standard unleaded gas which is 95 octane in Europe. Don't know what this corresponds to in US octane.

Problem: If I ride a normal trip, like 20 miles @ 70-80 mph and then stop, the motor sounds like a diesel on idle. It rattles. I turn it off and let it cool for 15 miinutes, it's back to normal. There is no indication of higher than normal temperature on the meter. No warning lights are on.

Someone suggested that this could be "detonation" or "knocking". Questions: Has anyone else here encountered this? How do I find out the true cause of the noise? If it's detonation, what can be done?

Eldberg

 

[FinalImpact]

I recently bought a 2004 FZ6 which now has 4500 miles on it. It's 100% stock, as far as I know. I use standard unleaded gas which is 95 octane in Europe. Don't know what this corresponds to in US octane.

Problem: If I ride a normal trip, like 20 miles @ 70-80 mph and then stop, the motor sounds like a diesel on idle. It rattles. I turn it off and let it cool for 15 miinutes, it's back to normal. There is no indication of higher than normal temperature on the meter. No warning lights are on.

Someone suggested that this could be "detonation" or "knocking". Questions: Has anyone else here encountered this? How do I find out the true cause of the noise? If it's detonation, what can be done?

Eldberg

So it does this while under NO load; i.e. Just sitting there idling? What is the idle RPM? Adjust to 1350 and report back.

The only reasons I can think of are: 1) a massive air leak after the throttle plates. 2) there is something glowing in one of cylinders making it ignite the fuel before the spark from ignition lights it. This could be something like excessive carbon build up or something caught in the combustion chamber that continues to glow red hot and ignite the fuel. 3) The ignition timing is off.

This is BAD!

Does it consume oil?
How old are the plugs?
Do you ride on dirt roads?
When was the air filter and oil oil-filter changed last?

How long has it done it?
Does putting higher grade gas in it fix it?

Has the ignition pickup coil ever been removed (engine work performed).

Does it go away with engine RPM increase? Does it make power and REV like it should?

Normally one might hear this type of thing when you take off at low RPM going up a hill (under load), but it goes away as RPM increases to 2500 - 3500.

Tell us more about how it runs and drives and answer as much of this as you can. It will help solve the riddle. . .

 

[ChevyFazer]

Has the tps recal been done on the bike? That could very well be the problemproblem

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[Eldberg]

So it does this while under NO load; i.e. Just sitting there idling? What is the idle RPM? Adjust to 1350 and report back.
Does it consume oil?
How old are the plugs?
Do you ride on dirt roads?
When was the air filter and oil oil-filter changed last?
How long has it done it?
Does putting higher grade gas in it fix it?
Has the ignition pickup coil ever been removed (engine work performed).
Does it go away with engine RPM increase? Does it make power and REV like it should?
Normally one might hear this type of thing when you take off at low RPM going up a hill (under load), but it goes away as RPM increases to 2500 - 3500.
Tell us more about how it runs and drives and answer as much of this as you can. It will help solve the riddle. . .

Idle speed sounds normal to me, have no way to measure it exactly.
The bike does not consume oil as far as I have noticed.
Spark plugs are probably original, never been changed.
Oil and oil filter were changed in the spring of this year.
Air filter looks clean. I never ride on dirt roads.
The weird noise appeared only a couple of rides ago.
Haven't tried higher octane, or riding when the noise appeared. Revving while the noise is heard seems normal apart from the noise.
Talked to the former owner and he says he never had any engine problems so I assume it has never been taken apart. The bike was bought in NYC and imported, used mostly for short trips around Stockholm.
I'm trying to get at the plugs now to inspect them.
Don't know what a tps recall is.

Thanks for your input. Will get back.

Eldberg

 

[ChevyFazer]

Idle speed sounds normal to me, have no way to measure it exactly.
The bike does not consume oil as far as I have noticed.
Spark plugs are probably original, never been changed.
Oil and oil filter were changed in the spring of this year.
Air filter looks clean. I never ride on dirt roads.
The weird noise appeared only a couple of rides ago.
Haven't tried higher octane, or riding when the noise appeared. Revving while the noise is heard seems normal apart from the noise.
Talked to the former owner and he says he never had any engine problems so I assume it has never been taken apart. The bike was bought in NYC and imported, used mostly for short trips around Stockholm.
I'm trying to get at the plugs now to inspect them.
Don't know what a tps recall is.

Thanks for your input. Will get back.

Eldberg

To find out exactly what the idle speed is just keep hiting select on your speedo and eventually a rpm gauge will show up where normally it displays your miles. Also to find out about your tps recall just call any yamaha dealer around where you live tell them that you want to check to see if it has been done and give them the vin # to the bike. It can all be done on the phone with them for free

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[TownsendsFJR1300]

The TPS re-call:

http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...ou-experiencing-poor-idle-mileage-stalls.html

I'd be changing the oil and filter with at least 10w40 NON ENERGY CONSERVING rated oil (I prefer motrocycle oil). If the last owner put a thin regular car oil in it, it may be allowing the valve train to rattle that much more once the engine is hot. Once it cools off, the oil thickens some.

Some Seafoam in the fuel wouldn't hurt either. It'll help clean the top end/injectors, etc...

 

[Eldberg]

Thanks for the link. My bike never displayed any of the faulty tps symptoms stated in that thread. Since the bike was bought in the USA and imported privately to Sweden, Swedish Yamaha have no record of it and if the tps was replaced in the USA, I don't know where to ask.

I'm now in the process of removing one spark plug to look at it. Unfortunately the toolbox is missing. So I need to go and buy the special type that can reach down the deep abyss and get the plug. This will take a time since I don't live anywhere near civilization.

Eldberg

 

[ChevyFazer]

Thanks for the link. My bike never displayed any of the faulty tps symptoms stated in that thread. Since the bike was bought in the USA and imported privately to Sweden, Swedish Yamaha have no record of it and if the tps was replaced in the USA, I don't know where to ask.

I'm now in the process of removing one spark plug to look at it. Unfortunately the toolbox is missing. So I need to go and buy the special type that can reach down the deep abyss and get the plug. This will take a time since I don't live anywhere near civilization.

Eldberg

If your the yamaha dealers you called cant give you any info about the tps You can also look at the vin number that is stamped in the right side of the frame under the handle bars if it has one or 2 dots punched after the vin it more then likely has been done

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[Eldberg]

Typically, this bike came without the original tool case. Can anybody tell me what the original spark plug key looks like? Is it a simple straight one, or a jointed affair? If straight, how long?

Eldberg

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks for the link. My bike never displayed any of the faulty tps symptoms stated in that thread. Since the bike was bought in the USA and imported privately to Sweden, Swedish Yamaha have no record of it and if the tps was replaced in the USA, I don't know where to ask.

I'm now in the process of removing one spark plug to look at it. Unfortunately the toolbox is missing. So I need to go and buy the special type that can reach down the deep abyss and get the plug. This will take a time since I don't live anywhere near civilization.

Eldberg

From the NHTSA site:

Results : 1 | All records displayed

Make: YAMAHA Model: FZS600
Model Year: 2004
Manufacturer: YAMAHA MOTOR CORPORATION, USA Mfr's Report Date: SEP 27, 2006
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 06V371000 PE06020
NHTSA Action Number: PE06020
Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL

Summary:
ON CERTAIN MOTORCYCLES, AN IMPROPERLY DESIGNED THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR COULD CAUSE AN INTERMITTENTLY UNSTABLE IDLE WHEN THE ENGINE IS AT IDLING SPEED WHEN THE MOTORCYCLE IS STOPPED OR DURING LOW-SPEED OPERATIONS. THE ENGINE COULD STALL AS A RESULT.
Consequence:
IF THE ENGINE STALLS AFTER THE OPERATOR DISENGAGES THE CLUTCH IN A LOW GEAR WHILE RIDING, THE REAR TIRE MIGHT SLIP MOMENTARILY IF THE OPERATOR ABRUPTLY RE-ENGAGES THE CLUTCH. THIS COULD RESULT IN A CRASH WITH INJURY OR DEATH.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON OCTOBER 16, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT YAMAHA AT 1-888-88-YAMAHA.
Notes:
CUSTOMERS MAY ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV.


A long distance call to Yamaha may help...

 

[Eldberg]

Moan! After 2 weeks of inactivity I finally got to a Yamaha dealer and bought a spark plug key. Back home I discover that it's too long to fit. What does the original toolkit key look like? My old Honda had one that was articulated, hex steel bar on top, joint, and then plug key end below. I guess something like that is needed.

 

[ChevyFazer]

Did you ever look at the vin on the bike to see if there were any punch marks or call a us dealer to find out about the tps, and as far as the wrench goes i dont know i just use a open ratcheting socket set, maybe someone else will chime in about that

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[TownsendsFJR1300]

Moan! After 2 weeks of inactivity I finally got to a Yamaha dealer and bought a spark plug key. Back home I discover that it's too long to fit. What does the original toolkit key look like? My old Honda had one that was articulated, hex steel bar on top, joint, and then plug key end below. I guess something like that is needed.

This is what came with my 2007 kit (looks like 16mm ID):

 

[Fred]

I'm late to the party on this one. Here's my take on it.

First, a fact. It is impossible for your engine to be detonating while at idle. Cylinder pressures simply don't rise high enough to cause detonation at idle, no matter how screwed up the mixture or timing is. To detonate, you have to have the throttles open.

Given this fact, you need to look elsewhere for the source of the noise.

My first guess is that your valves are out of adjustment. This can make nasty noises if they're too loose. And when you shut down for 15 minutes, the engine and oil cool down somewhat. Cooler, thicker oil can mask the sound for a while, then it comes back as the engine heats back up again.

Another possibility is a failed timing chain tensioner, or bad main or rod bearing.

Can you shoot some video or record some audio, and post it to Youtube? If we can hear the sound, that will help us figure out what it might be.

Also, try using a mechanic's stethescope to locate the source of the noise. If you don't have one, you can use a wooden dowel instead. Hold one end against the engine, and the other end near your ear. It will transmit sounds by contact, letting you find where a noise is coming from.

Good luck!

Frederic

 

[Eldberg]

Thanks Scott for the images! Will bring those to the dealer so they understand what I need.

Fred: It would be a relief if detonation is NOT the problem. OTOH valves being too loose on a bike that has only 4,300 miles on it would seem very strange. The noise comes from the cyliner area, not clutch or gearbox and probably not exhaust. Haven't got recording device, nor stethoscope and the bike is parked indefinitely until I get the spark plugs out.

ChevyFazer: Yes I did check. No dots at the VIN. Will write to Yamaha USA and ask if they have records.

Right now the bike is disassembled, winter is approaching and I have to travel 140 miles every time I need a spare part or a tool, so this is going to take time...

Åke

 

[Eldberg]

Latest news: Sawed off the spark plug key. It can now be placed in the hole but does not reach the top. A joint is needed. So I'm faced with (A) taking a hex rod and fixing it inside the plug key, with a round pin as hinge, riveted at both ends. Lot of work. Or (B) buying a complete toolkit from Yamaha, $150. They don't sell the pplug key separate.

Note to self: never again buy a 2nd hand motorcycle where the toolkit is missing or incomplete.

Åke

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Latest news: Sawed off the spark plug key. It can now be placed in the hole but does not reach the top. A joint is needed. So I'm faced with (A) taking a hex rod and fixing it inside the plug key, with a round pin as hinge, riveted at both ends. Lot of work. Or (B) buying a complete toolkit from Yamaha, $150. They don't sell the pplug key separate.

Note to self: never again buy a 2nd hand motorcycle where the toolkit is missing or incomplete.

Åke

Try posting a "wanted to buy", there's got to be a tool kit/stock plug socket from a wrecked bike out there..

Edit: Use my picture to make sure you get the correct one if needed...

 

[ChevyFazer]

Try posting a "wanted to buy", there's got to be a tool kit/stock plug socket from a wrecked bike out there..

Or fleabay

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[afpreppie04]

Or if no luck there, you can order this from Yamaha. It has a wobble extension instead of a joint in the actual wrench but should do the trick.

 

[Eldberg]

Or if no luck there, you can order this from Yamaha. It has a wobble extension instead of a joint in the actual wrench but should do the trick.

Thanks for the tip. I just left the sawed-off key with the local mechanic genius who promised to make a joint (no, not that kind) with a hex rod for a cheapo price. Will see what comes out of that...

Åke