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Danish Eviormental Politiics .......

Fz6Sa

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So, - they people running the electric grid here in Denmark have concluded that we produce to much power during off-peak hours, - mainly at night.
So to compensate, - the windmills will now be stopped during these hours, while our coal fuelled power plants will keep running ......
If some stray wind-mill owner fails to stop his windmill, - he will be fined pr. output kilowatt .....


Just goes to show why the western world have so many environmental problems!!
 
It costs more to stop and start a coal fired plant.


How about this one?

Global lights off hour? or whatever its called.

The power is still produced, it has to be, the coal, natural gas is still burnt, but the power is just shunted to ground. It just wastes it, not one bit of good comes from it. Only harm. But its "enviromentally responsible"
 
Since cost don't seem to be an issue (as long as it's the consumers paying anyway), it still makes no sense to me.

If you build windmills (a good thing) why don't you shut down the coal plants accordingly ?
 
I bet.

Ever thought that you are being taxed to death for no real benifit except to you government, and the people that collect the taxes???
 
I bet.

Ever thought that you are being taxed to death for no real benifit except to you government, and the people that collect the taxes???

Well,- it sometimes feels that way, but to be fair we do have:

Free education (including university)
Free hospitals and doctors
Cheap medicine
Unemployment benefits

And many other government paid things like em
 
Just goes to show why the western world have so many environmental problems!!

Since cost don't seem to be an issue (as long as it's the consumers paying anyway), it still makes no sense to me.

If you build windmills (a good thing) why don't you shut down the coal plants accordingly ?

It is not a conspiracy and the people running your electric grid are not fools. I'm sure they are doing the best they can in what is a difficult balancing act. It is an unavoidable result of attempting to integrate the new sources of energy like wind and solar that naturally fluctuate into an existing grid. Like Steve said, it costs a lot to shut down and start up a coal-fired or other thermal generating unit, but more importantly, they were not designed to be shut down and restarted every day. For large units, it is a many hour process. With current technology, an electric system could not run entirely on the output of windmills. They are far too variable - the output varies with the cube of the wind speed. You need the large rotating mass of central station units to stabilize the system. It is sort of like the electric system on our FZ6 - the output of the generator itself is variable. The battery either absorbs or makes up for the excess or deficit of the generator. Just as your FZ6 would not run without the battery, the electric grid won't run without the large central station generators. (This is not the best analogy in the world, but I was trying to inject a little FZ6 discussion.)
What is needed is a simple, cheap and effective way to store and release the energy generated by windmills and solar. The current technologies are not really scalable to the quantities needed to effectively utilize these sources on a mass scale without doing things like shutting them down under light load so you can keep the thermal plants running. My pet concept, which I'm sure is not new or original, would be to use the windmills and solar cells to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen during periods of high wind and/or bright sun and low demand. The hydrogen could then be turned back into electricity via fuel cells and put on the grid when demand rises, or, fed into a hydrogen distribution network to supply hydrogen powered cars (and motorcycles.)

Ohh,- and I forgot to mention:

We have to pay CO2 emission tax on Windmill produced power ........

That one baffles me.
 
Seems to me a more effect use of the power is to route it to another part of Europe that doesn't have enough capacity, if that is possible.

Pres Obama wants to go forward with the "Carbon" tax to raise money, see new budget. Hang on to your wallets Americans! BOHICA!!!!
 
Seems to me a more effect use of the power is to route it to another part of Europe that doesn't have enough capacity, if that is possible.

Likely not possible with the existing high-voltage grid. People really, really, really hate it when you try to build high-voltage transmission lines near them, and the lines have to go near somebody....

Pres Obama wants to go forward with the "Carbon" tax to raise money, see new budget. Hang on to your wallets Americans! BOHICA!!!!

Some sort of a carbon tax is a done-deal. Huge potential source of revenue for a cash-strapped government.
 
Well,- it sometimes feels that way, but to be fair we do have:

Free education (including university)
Free hospitals and doctors
Cheap medicine
Unemployment benefits

And many other government paid things like em

I would like to disagree with you. This is why:

These things are not free. You are paying for them by way of taxes. This means that you are not only paying for a service, in which you may or may not use, but you are paying at the rate in which the government determines. So basically, the vendor (government) forces you to buy thier products and services, and THEY determine how much of it you buy and what price you pay. The prices are fixed, inflated, and if they ever change it is always in the upward direction.

Education: what if you're not in school, have no children in school, and do not need to go to school because you possess a trade skill you use at your place of employment. Then, you're paying for everyone else in school, and it's still at whatever price the government determines. What if a private school, a better school, comes in and offers top notch education at a price incredibly low, less than half the price in comparison to what the government says it's school costs per student? You could go, get a more advanced education and have more career potential, but you'd still be paying the cost for the other schooling on top of the tuition. Most would choose the "free" (pre-paid) schooling, which could very easily be low quality. This is just one example where this is bad.

Medical care: again, you're paying an inflated price for services that may or may not be of high quality. If the hospitals all get the same pay per customer/procedure/whatever, what incentive do they have to attempt to excel in their field? If they're all equal, people are just going to go to the closest one, instead of the best one. There is no competition in the marketplace to increase quality and decrease prices. ALSO, you're paying for all the lard butts that cannot think long enough to take care of themselves, to get taken care of when they become incredibly ill, and eventually die from their own doings.

Cheap medicine: you're only seeing the "price" that you pay when you get the medicine, you're probably not seeing the millions+ in tax dollars subsidizing the drugs. You're paying for there to be medicine all the time. Even if it was more expensive if it wasn't controlled by the government, you would probably save money in that you'd only be getting it when you needed it, instead of also paying for other people to have it when you don't need it.

Unemployment benefits: if you could save the portion of the money that goes towards this out of your pay, you'd likely have a nice sum adding up, and accuring interest in the bank. More than any payments you would ever receive after becoming unemployed. You would also get to keep the interest, and you wouldn't have to pay the overhead for the departments full of people to process claims and cut checks. People should be responsible for their own well being, and save money themselves instead of spending 100% of each paycheck that comes in, or only saving for those special purchases.

If we got to keep all of our paychecks, we could still live exactly as we do now, except have that extra few hundred bucks or however much going into an interest earning bank account, pay for goods and services at our discretion, and bail ourselfs out when we need it without any extra costs.

You can spend your earned money better, with greater effectiveness and reach, and smarter than the government can ever do it.
 
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Well,- it sometimes feels that way, but to be fair we do have:

Free education (including university)
Free hospitals and doctors
Cheap medicine
Unemployment benefits

And many other government paid things like em

Totally right....Paying money to the Danish government is not a waste of time. They really have their heads screwed on. Denmark is one of the few countries without a national debt. We all have a good standard of living and a good life style.

What they do sometimes seems a bit strange but there is usually a good reason behind it.

We have n import duty on vehicles of 180% and that includes our bikes. Would I like them to get rid of this tax? Oddly enough I would`nt. All our vehicles are imported so the country gets a huge amount of income from this tax. Getting rid of it would be detrimental to all our lifestyles.

Being British and having lived in England and Scotland for many years I sometimes find it difficult to convince the Danes just how unbelievably lucky they are to live here.

Steve
 
You can spend your earned money better, with greater effectiveness and reach, and smarter than the government can ever do it.

I know that you will be screaming "communist" now, - BUT:

I do believe that tax paid government services are a good thing.
There will always be people in any society that, for some reason, can not afford the basic necessities.
The fact that we have a system in place that will take care of these people gives me great comfort.
In Denmark is not the wallet that decides the quality of your education-level, - it's your brain.
Also it's not your wallet that decides the quality of the medic-care you receive, and so on.

It's so easy for us that are lucky to be well enough off to pay for everything to overlook the issues of the less fortunate in our western world, and therefore jump to the conclusion that you should abolish the tax-system.

The biggest problem is the delicate balance the government have to keep, walking the thin line of providing enough service while avoiding become communistic in their way of ruling.
 
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I know that you will be screaming "communist" now, - BUT:

I do believe that tax paid government services are a good thing.
There will always be people in any society that, for some reason, can not afford the basic necessities.
The fact that we have a system in place that will take care of these people gives me great comfort.
In Denmark is not the wallet that decides the quality of your education-level, - it's your brain.
Also it's not your wallet that decides the quality of the medic-care you receive, and so on.

It's so easy for us that are lucky to be well enough off to pay for everything to overlook the issues of the less fortunate in our western world, and therefore jump to the conclusion that you should abolish the tax-system.

The biggest problem is the delicate balance the government have to keep, walking the thin line of providing enough service while avoiding become communistic in their way of ruling.

Charities exists to help people in need. They also have to be responsible with their money, or else nobody will give them any more. I believe that people are generally good-willed, which is why charities exist in the first place.

Before the current systems of wealth redistrobution that we know today, charities really did their job and took care of many people. Everyone alive now doesn't realize that anymore because we were not around when these things took place.

Also, charities make individuals that get help bear responsibility in that if they make no efforts or cannot be convinced to help themselves, the money stops going to them. This gets rid of the possibility that an individual or family can just become lazy and live off the welfare systems.

Yes, your wallet does not decide the quality of education and health care that you receive, the government decides what level of quality they make available to you in a government run system. Over time what will happen is the government will decide to pay itself more and more, and either taxes will be raised, quality will go down, or both.

Society is constantly changing, and the nature of government creates a situation where governments are always growing, and attempting to attain more power, building off of their perceived legitimacy in which is available to them more and more as they grow older and older.

Oh, and the best thing about charities is that they are completely consentual. They do not use violence or the threat of force to obtain their money. They use their work and reputation to build trust, in which they know not to violate, because their cashflow will go away if they do.
 
Charities exists to help people in need. They also have to be responsible with their money, or else nobody will give them any more. I believe that people are generally good-willed, which is why charities exist in the first place.

Before the current systems of wealth redistrobution that we know today, charities really did their job and took care of many people. Everyone alive now doesn't realize that anymore because we were not around when these things took place.

Also, charities make individuals that get help bear responsibility in that if they make no efforts or cannot be convinced to help themselves, the money stops going to them. This gets rid of the possibility that an individual or family can just become lazy and live off the welfare systems.

Yes, your wallet does not decide the quality of education and health care that you receive, the government decides what level of quality they make available to you in a government run system. Over time what will happen is the government will decide to pay itself more and more, and either taxes will be raised, quality will go down, or both.

Society is constantly changing, and the nature of government creates a situation where governments are always growing, and attempting to attain more power, building off of their perceived legitimacy in which is available to them more and more as they grow older and older.

Oh, and the best thing about charities is that they are completely consentual. They do not use violence or the threat of force to obtain their money. They use their work and reputation to build trust, in which they know not to violate, because their cashflow will go away if they do.

If you were right about this, - we should not see any people suffering in the US ....
 
If you were right about this, - we should not see any people suffering in the US ....

No, the government and welfare system here has evolved so far that people get the money taken away from them by taxes, that many would use to contribute to charity.

I'm not saying the US is better in any way. I am saying that all government is opressive, and more importantly, people can spend their own money more wisely and effectively than any government can. That is something that cannot be disputed.
 
No, the government and welfare system here has evolved so far that people get the money taken away from them by taxes, that many would use to contribute to charity.

I'm not saying the US is better in any way. I am saying that all government is opressive, and more importantly, people can spend their own money more wisely and effectively than any government can. That is something that cannot be disputed.


I have to correct myself. I was under the illusion that you would typically pay less than 5% in income taxes in the US.
Now after looking into the OECD numbers published, - I realise that im WAY off!!
Apparently the average married person in the US pays close to 27% income tax, - and in Denmark close to 45% ....

Therefore my "If you were right about this, - we should not see any people suffering in the US" comment should not have been posted.
 
Apparently the average married person in the US pays close to 27% income tax, - and in Denmark close to 45% ....

Now imagine being a fairly well paid SINGLE guy in the U.S. My tax rate is higher than 27% because I don't have a wife and kids, so no deductions. I get hit for not breeding, for not creating more little consumers...

I agree with Brad -- I could spend (save) that money a lot more wisely than the govt.
 
Now imagine being a fairly well paid SINGLE guy in the U.S. My tax rate is higher than 27% because I don't have a wife and kids, so no deductions. I get hit for not breeding, for not creating more little consumers...

I agree with Brad -- I could spend (save) that money a lot more wisely than the govt.

Here's the great thing about living in the U.S.A, we get the worst of both worlds!
We can be taxed at almost the same rate as you guys in Denmark, 35% is our highest bracket, but we get none of the services!
This raping is supposed to be offset by all the freedom we have, but the government is up our asses in every conceivable way.
Go America!:cheer:
 
Here's the great thing about living in the U.S.A, we get the worst of both worlds!
We can be taxed at almost the same rate as you guys in Denmark, 35% is our highest bracket, but we get none of the services!
This raping is supposed to be offset by all the freedom we have, but the government is up our asses in every conceivable way.
Go America!:cheer:

Income tax is 40% in my case, plus 11% on top of that for "national insurance" contribution.
 
So to compensate, - the windmills will now be stopped during these hours, while our coal fuelled power plants will keep running ......

Each individual generator takes about 6 hours to spin up from nothing. It also places a huge strain on the machine, just like starting your car/motor when it's cold. If they shut the coal plants down, they would need to start spinning them back up 6 hours before they were needed again. I'm guessing off-peak isn't much more than 6 hours. So they'd turn them off, and then just start em back up again almost immediately. What I don't understand is, why not export the surplus energy to nearby countries?
 
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