Clutch and oil questions

[foxbass]

I follow you Scott!

So. Here's the skinny.

Pulled the cover again. Nice quick job. And..Oh dear, what have we here?
Too put it bluntly the bearing could not have been more knackered. Where the pull shaft flange yanks on the pressure plate it had all but pulled the inner shell right through the bearing. The U track had become so wide there was only a very slight lip left on the load side.
Of course that has allowed the actuator arm to pull the shaft too far into the cover boss meaning that the rack teeth ended before the complete disengagement hence the arm coming to a dead stop after only 9mm.
The lay shaft that the arm is fixed to is geared all the way round so has no orientation re the alignment marks. They are only there to correctly position the angle of the arm itself.

It is now totally silent when the lever is pulled - there was a whirring sound before which stopped once the lever was let go.

This now strikes me as a slight design flaw in the mechanism and thus a warning to those of us who tend to ride the clutch in gear at lights. All the time the lever is pulled there is a force trying to pull the centre ring out of the bearing. It may only be a short time before the case hardening of the race surface is worn through leading to very rapid bearing shell wear thereafter.

I want to thank everyone here for being so patient with me and will expect a small round of applause for being DOOFUS OF THE WEEK!

I got my baby back:rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon::cheer:

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Glad you found it!!

You got a new bearing installed already?

And yes, whenever you hold in the clutch lever, that little bearing is working...

 

[foxbass]

Yeah, I don't hang about when I'm on a mission. Phoned bearing supplier (note NOT stealership) ascertained stock then at 16.30 drove all of 8 miles each way in Friday rush traffic that's 16 miles in 105 minutes. That's London for ya. All for a £6 bearing!
Reassembly took all of 30 min and then went for quick test ride to comfirm.
BEAUTIFUL!!!

The things we learn..... the things we learn.....

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Excellent!!!

I'm in the states, its a holiday today, not much is open here.

Safe ridin!:thumbup:

 

[Carlos840]

Small question on that subject:

Should the clutch be completely silent when the bike is in gear and the clutch lever pulled in?

In that situation my bike does emit a very slight whirring sound clearly coming from the left engine cover, i always thought it was normal, but now that you say yours is completely silent i wonder if my bearing could be on its way out!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Small question on that subject:

Should the clutch be completely silent when the bike is in gear and the clutch lever pulled in?

In that situation my bike does emit a very slight whirring sound clearly coming from the left engine cover, i always thought it was normal, but now that you say yours is completely silent i wonder if my bearing could be on its way out!

If you mean the RIGHT cover as you sit on the bike, it will make a slightly different noise (very slight) when the clutch is pulled in or released.

When the lever is pulled in, part of the transmission will stop turning(eventually), its normal..

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

At least mine makes that little noise too, 17K miles, clutch works fine too.

Will a new bearing being quieter, maybe a tad, but his was literally falling apart (and will make a racket)..

 

[Carlos840]

At least mine makes that little noise too, 17K miles, clutch works fine too.

Will a new bearing being quieter, maybe a tad, but his was literally falling apart (and will make a racket)..

Thanks, it's nothing worrying, it just sounds like there is something rubbing slightly when the clutch is pulled in gear at a stop, if i go to N the noise goes away.

It worried me when i first got the bike, but a google search revealed that most bikes do that.

Now foxbass saying his bike was completely silent with the clutch pulled in had me wondering!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yep, in neutral, the gear box is spinning with the engine. There's just NO gears engauged to the output shaft(sprocket).

Once you pull in the clutch and drop in gear, all the shafts are locked in gear, the clutch plates apart, are all that's keeping you from moving. Once engauged(clutch), you engine is now DIRECTLY connected to the output sprocket.

His bearing by failing, simply wasn't allowing the clutch to disengauge the two fully, thus the dragging.

 

[foxbass]

Sorry to lead you astray Carlos, Scott is of course correct. It seems most bike make a little noise - though interestingly not the BMW F800 I just bought.

I've had a good listen to my Fazer clutch, in neutral with the engine running, and looking down at the clutch cover on the right side, I've pulled the lever several times. It makes no sound. That said, its a little difficult to hear over THE NOISE THE SCROPION CANS ARE MAKING!!!!!

Erm, if you get my drift...

I was quite surprised, as the bike came to me with only 8000 miles and it was already making a slight whirring sound back then which is why I suggest it is a design weakness or bad quality bearings.
It may also be even quieter now with the Motul 300V oil in. :rockon:

My recommendation is therefore that everyone keep an ear out for that noise getting worse and use the next oil change as an opportunity to do the bearing swap. It takes all of 20 mins to do and is very simple.:thumbup:

 

[FinalImpact]

Glad you got it fixed!

As for the noise / rest of us; do keep in mind that when the clutch is disengaged (plates separated), its shifting the input shaft towards the right side of the block against the bearings holding that shaft. In short, its taking the free play from the main bearing and any movement allowed by that bearing while the clutch is being disengaged.

Were there any parts missing from the bearing, anything show up in the oil change? I suspect any heavy bits are simply laying in the sump...

So are you saying the bearing in the top hat died? # 7

 

[yamihoe]

is #16 a bearing as well? either way, my understanding is that his failed bearing was pretty much a throwout bearing or pilot bearing (car terms), it only spins when the clutch is pushed or in bike cases pulled in.

 

[FinalImpact]

is #16 a bearing as well? either way, my understanding is that his failed bearing was pretty much a throwout bearing or pilot bearing (car terms), it only spins when the clutch is pushed or in bike cases pulled in.

Yes it is a bearing but 16 is not a thrust bearing... It allows the clutch drum assembly to spin on the input shaft.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As for the noise / rest of us; do keep in mind that when the clutch is disengaged (plates separated), its shifting the input shaft towards the right side of the block against the bearings holding that shaft. In short, its taking the free play from the main bearing and any movement allowed by that bearing while the clutch is being disengaged.

So are you saying the bearing in the top hat died? # 7

Post #21 Foxxbass summed up his findings after pulling the clutch cover off again...

Bearing #7 was very loose (approx 80% failed, still intact but super loose). Full, lower lever movement is normally about 13mm measured at the end of the arm (centered on the "pin"). He was getting a max of 10mm movement, thus lack of full release.

Re the bolded post above, are you referring to the allowable free play tolerance of the shaft and case Randy?

Not to start a pissing match, but pulling the clutch lever (separating the plates) is NOT moving any shafts.

Its simply disengauging the clutch plates. Neither the main or output shaft itself is moving side to side to speak of.

Yamaha doesn't even spec out allowable side to side play nor are their any shims available to take up play/center the shaft. Never noticed it but the older bikes, (specifically the late 70's early 80's YZ's 125's and 250's) shims were available to blue print the transmission, center up shafts, etc.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

is #16 a bearing as well? either way, my understanding is that his failed bearing was pretty much a throwout bearing or pilot bearing (car terms), it only spins when the clutch is pushed or in bike cases pulled in.

You are correct, bearing #7 works the same as an automotive throwout bearing.

That bearing is working ONLY when the clutch lever is pulled in, working against the clutch springs, disengaging the 6 springs. Same as your manual shift car..:thumbup:

 

[FinalImpact]

Post #21 Foxxbass summed up his findings after pulling the clutch cover off again...

Bearing #7 was very loose (approx 80% failed, still intact but super loose). Full, lower lever movement is normally about 13mm measured at the end of the arm (centered on the "pin"). He was getting a max of 10mm movement, thus lack of full release.

Re the bolded post above, are you referring to the allowable free play tolerance of the shaft and case Randy?

Not to start a pissing match, but pulling the clutch lever (separating the plates) is NOT moving any shafts.

Its simply disengauging the clutch plates. Neither the main or output shaft itself is moving side to side to speak of.

Yamaha doesn't even spec out allowable side to side play nor are their any shims available to take up play/center the shaft. Never noticed it but the older bikes, (specifically the late 70's early 80's YZ's 125's and 250's) shims were available to blue print the transmission, center up shafts, etc.

Is it fair to say there was an opposite and equal force applied when the lever disengages the clutch? Something held the clutch drum from pulling with the arm... My point was that it will change the sound as it moves several components...

Levers - just saying compare aplles to apples. Not long arm vs short arm. i.e. if the killer noodle was involved.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Is it fair to say there was an opposite and equal force applied when the lever disengages the clutch? Something held the clutch drum from pulling with the arm... My point was that it will change the sound as it moves several components...

Levers - just saying compare aplles to apples. Not long arm vs short arm. i.e. if the killer noodle was involved.

Agreed, the post sounded like the transmission shaft moves in and out normally (which, with built in play, .005" maybe? ).

Most of the difference in noise, I'd suspect would not be that, say .005", but the TWO transmision shafts NOT spinning (extra bearings, shafts, etc) slowing down, not spinning (short of parasitic drag with oil on the plates) with the clutch fully disengauged.

The bolded above (first paragraph), agreed 100% .

 

[7UPyours]

thanks for a very interesting read and since I am close to 20k miles, things will be needed replacing soon, since I haven't had the need to open anything up yet, should there be a write up on this in the how-to or is this straight forward once you're looking at it.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

thanks for a very interesting read and since I am close to 20k miles, things will be needed replacing soon, since I haven't had the need to open anything up yet, should there be a write up on this in the how-to or is this straight forward once you're looking at it.

Its very straight forward. Just look at the parts fiche (post #31), it'd take longer to get the outer clutch cover off (and scrape gasket) than to swap that bearing.

Basically, once the covers off, pull the 6 bolts and springs, the "pressure plate" comes off. Knock out the bearing (a little guy) and re-install the new once.

One thing you need to watch for is there's a marking on that pressure plate that needs to match up with a mark on the INNER clutch basket . There's a small gear/part (part #8 above) that fits inside the bearing in question. It has to face the rear when re-installing the release shaft/arm(part #22 above).

Look at page 5-52 in the S2 Yamaha shop manual.., Much easier with pic's (which we can't copy from the manual here)

 

[FinalImpact]

7Up I think the main thing is detection. Noticing the the change before it self destructs. In this case the actuator arm at the transmission had to move a substantial distance and basically do nothing.

For most of us I doubt there is a need to to just replace it unless its primary use is that of a city bike idling in traffic on a daily basis.

[MENTION=15369]foxbass[/MENTION] what is your primary use? Can you snap a close up of the failed bearing?