Clutch and oil questions

[foxbass]

I know the subject of oil has been done to death but please humour me for a mo.

My s2 has been running quite happily (I think) on Motul 300v 15 50 synthetic for over a year. I know its way above spec but I came by a load of it cheap.
Came time for a service recently and I changed to Silkolene Super 4 semi synth 20 50.(Was given it by fellow biker) Within days the clutch was needing regular adjustment. In short it appears to be worn out at 31000 miles. New one going in imminently!
My question therefore is, should I go back to the fully synth which seemed to work fine or ditch it in favour of the exact spec?
My riding is a lot of stop/start commuting across London with the bike's fan regularly kicking in every journey during the summer.

Also, is there a test/indication that will certify a knackered clutch? Lever is quite stiff now despite a proper lube job on the cable just days ago. Have checked for fraying/kinks. Clutch seems to start dragging as it gets hot - as in the bike creeps at lights in gear/clutch out.

Any input well received!

 

[Erci]

Hmm.. a sign of clutch going would be clutch slipping when you get on the power. What you're experiencing is the opposite. Sounds like it's not fully disengaging when the clutch is squeezed in and the oil gets hot.

Even though the oil you went with is safe for wet clutches (it is JASO MA and MA2 rated), I wonder if the high viscosity has anything to do with it.

If I were you, I would start by replacing the clutch cable (cheap and due anyway) and changing oil to recommended weight.

How far away from the bar does the clutch start to grab? Perhaps adjust it so it grabs a bit farther away?

 

[iviyth0s]

I can't comment on the problems you're having but I'm using 10W-40 euro car formula Mobil 1 and haven't had any issues. This oil is certainly not motorcycle certified, but it wouldn't hurt to try another oil with a more modest warm viscosity rating

 

[foxbass]

Thanks guys.
When I did the oil change a couple of weeks ago I also properly adjusted the clutch cable incl taking up some slack at the mid point. I have to say that then it was working just fine for over a week. Like new in fact. The bite point was as per manual with recommended play at the lever and the operation was quite smooth and progressive. In fact it got through the MOT ok with compliments even on its condition from the mechanic. (He's the sort who automatically checks and adjusts the clutch on each bike that he works on - Burwin Motorcycles of Islington)

I'm going to call Motul customer services today to get their advice anyway, but I may go back to the synth stuff as problems only began when I switched back to semi synth. I seem to remember that the grade is one recommended for KTMs so it can't be so bad for the FZ?

I also checked last night and found the slave arm was one spline out clockwise so I corrected that error and test rode. Clutch seemed fine for the first few minutes but then went back to being a cow to find neutral. It gets very notchy 2nd to 1st and takes several go's to get neutral as it overshoots both ways.
Once I'm in 2nd I rarely use the clutch anyway up through the box and tap it down likewise until 2nd, using the clutch to find neutral/1st. (Needless to say this is gentle town riding! For more spirited stuff I always use it for downshifts)

I'm now wondering if I knackered the plates switching oil back to semi synth?
The cable will be changed in the next few weeks before our ride to Scotland but at the moment it ok and works smoothly being well lubed/checked.

 

[pantone]

Check this to see if it can solve your problem. Your problem had also bothered me for years. Everytime in a traffic jam, the clutch became loose and slackness increased. After cleaning the clutch pivot, the engine temperature no more influences the clutch operation.

http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/52387-jammed-clutch-lever-pivot.html

 

[iSteve]

Your clutch isn't warn out if it grabbing, most likely it's just a little out of adjustment and getting hot. A hot clutch will grab a little more and sitting in traffic with the clutch pulled in and in gear will make the clutch get hot.

You may also want to replace the cable with 31k miles with a new one. And next time use the spec weight oil.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Agreed, pop for a new a cable. Its likely stretched.

Someone, moved that lower clutch arm from the marks to get more cable (as it apparently stretched).

Please put that lever at the engine back where it belongs (on the appropriate marks). The change in angle does make a very slight difference in the pull/engaugment.

It won't hurt to change from syn to non and vice versa but I would replace whats obviously worn out first and go from there.. The mid adjuster is probably opened up all the way too.

I have half the miles on my bike than you do and am very anal about keeping the clutch cable lubed.

About two weeks ago, I pulled most of it out for a REAL cleaning. The lower end of the cable(just above the transmission) was seized to the inner sheath. I do use a pressure cable cleaner/luber however it wouldn't release that sheath. After manually moving it, more lube, etc, finally got it moving (and clean).

The major issue is with the mid cable adjuster and its connetions. At each connection is a spot for the pressure to leak out and NEVER make it to the very bottom of the cable. And yes, I used pressure from the lower end inwards. Anyway, eventually is was cleaned out, I suspect yours will be much worse than mine was..

 

[Erci]

I have half the miles on my bike than you do and am very anal about keeping the clutch cable lubed.

About two weeks ago, I pulled most of it out for a REAL cleaning. The lower end of the cable(just above the transmission) was seized to the inner sheath. I do use a pressure cable cleaner/luber however it wouldn't release that sheath. After manually moving it, more lube, etc, finally got it moving (and clean).

The major issue is with the mid cable adjuster and its connetions. At each connection is a spot for the pressure to leak out and NEVER make it to the very bottom of the cable. And yes, I used pressure from the lower end inwards. Anyway, eventually is was cleaned out, I suspect yours will be much worse than mine was..

Once again this makes me question the choice to lubricate clutch cable. I have ~27k miles on my bike now. Clutch cable has not been lubricated once. It feels exactly as smooth as it felt when I picked the bike up with 8k miles on it.

Bike has been through many downpours and has been on gravel too. I check the clutch regularly for fraying or rust and I blow the water off of it when I get home from a rainy ride.. that's about it.

I think I mentioned this before.. the reason I chose to keep cables dry was from years of mountain biking, where lubricating cables originally made them feel better than dry, but the lubricant would eventually mix with dust / dirt and at that point there was no way to bring the cables / housing back to life. (obviously much more dirt exposure in mountain biking, but still).

I won't tell you that my way is the right way and it's the only way to do it, but I can say that the dry approach has worked very well for me on numerous bikes for many years.

So foxbass, when you put new cable on, consider all of the above.

 

[foxbass]

Thanks Erci and all for the tips.

Ok. My day.

New clutch went in this afternoon. Easier job than I expected. New gasket too. Went back to the Motul double esther oil as their tech dept said it should not make a huge difference over standard synth. I actually removed the new oil filter and completely drained it, even tipped the bike on its stand to drain the sump right out. (Tricky that. You have to become a human tripod between the centre stand leg and the front wheel). I soaked the new plates in the new oil for a couple of hours as per normal.

Checked the clutch cable. Bear in mind that I cleaned/lubed it only 2 weeks ago. Pulling and pushing the gear box end while still attached to the lever was real easy and the lever moved back and forth with no probs.
Re-seated the slave arm, attached cable and checked play at the lever. Exactly as per book. :thumbup:

Checked everything for operation while still on the stand. Gear selector fine, minimal drag through to back wheel in neutral. (Wheel only just turned slowly)

Cleaned up, put the big rubber hammer away (Not actually needed as everything just fell apart nicely! :cheer

A fine hot evening so decided to test ride pronto.

Started up. Good!

Select 1st. A satisfying snick instead of clunk!

Pulled away. Clutch nice and smooth with bite close to midway of travel. Checked lever free play. Still as per book.

Found 2nd. Easy. Hardly a sound. WOW!

Out into traffic. Damn. Rush hour. Hey its my usual ride!

Everything back to normal slick gear changes up and down the box.

15, yes just 15 mins into the journey, pull up to lights and tried for neutral at a standstill. Lever VERY stiff jumped with some effort past N to 1st. B****r!
Lever felt like it was stuck in 1st. Just would not upshift to neutral. Kept jumping from 1st to 2nd and back.

Started to feel very silly at each light. And quite angry that my wasted hard work.

Suddenly dawned on me that I'd been doing my usual clutchless upchanges!
A bit of lateral thinking made me think that the plates might be glueing together with a super fine oil film, causing major drag. (I won't go into a long explanation of why this is possible - its to do with surface tension. The thicker the film, the easier it is to break things apart.)

So.... Decided to complete the return leg home, around 10 miles, using clutch on every change, not even tapping down 2 at a time as usual. The idea being to re-introduce oil between the plates more often, keeping the film a bit thicker. (Maybe!)

Result? Aha! Much better changes. Found neutral at a couple of lights both stationary and just rolling to halt.

Relief all round!Blah:rockon:

Then... Look away if you don't like the notion of a grown man crying in disbelief inside his helmet....

It started happening AGAIN. Every junction became a nightmare of jumping on the lever and hoisting it back desperately trying to find the elusive N word.
When it did engage each time, there was significant drag causing the bike to want to move forward. Had to hold it on the brake. Stopped the engine twice at lights and rock the bike to find N. Still difficult even then!

I have now seriously strained the muscle in my left shin.:shakehead:

This is my 3rd FZ and 2nd S2 and I've not had this problem before. My location/riding style has not changed either.

I guess it could be time for the dreaded stealership visit.

UNLESS ANYONE HERE HAS A BETTER IDEA!!!!:don'tknow:

I don't get it. What the heck has happened? I looked closely at the components and there did not seem to be any damage. The actuator arm turned freely. There are no kinks in the cable. The lever works fine

 

[Erci]

Thanks Erci and all for the tips.

Ok. My day.

New clutch went in this afternoon. Easier job than I expected. New gasket too. Went back to the Motul double esther oil as their tech dept said it should not make a huge difference over standard synth. I actually removed the new oil filter and completely drained it, even tipped the bike on its stand to drain the sump right out. (Tricky that. You have to become a human tripod between the centre stand leg and the front wheel). I soaked the new plates in the new oil for a couple of hours as per normal.

Checked the clutch cable. Bear in mind that I cleaned/lubed it only 2 weeks ago. Pulling and pushing the gear box end while still attached to the lever was real easy and the lever moved back and forth with no probs.
Re-seated the slave arm, attached cable and checked play at the lever. Exactly as per book. :thumbup:

Checked everything for operation while still on the stand. Gear selector fine, minimal drag through to back wheel in neutral. (Wheel only just turned slowly)

Cleaned up, put the big rubber hammer away (Not actually needed as everything just fell apart nicely! :cheer

A fine hot evening so decided to test ride pronto.

Started up. Good!

Select 1st. A satisfying snick instead of clunk!

Pulled away. Clutch nice and smooth with bite close to midway of travel. Checked lever free play. Still as per book.

Found 2nd. Easy. Hardly a sound. WOW!

Out into traffic. Damn. Rush hour. Hey its my usual ride!

Everything back to normal slick gear changes up and down the box.

15, yes just 15 mins into the journey, pull up to lights and tried for neutral at a standstill. Lever VERY stiff jumped with some effort past N to 1st. B****r!
Lever felt like it was stuck in 1st. Just would not upshift to neutral. Kept jumping from 1st to 2nd and back.

Started to feel very silly at each light. And quite angry that my wasted hard work.

Suddenly dawned on me that I'd been doing my usual clutchless upchanges!
A bit of lateral thinking made me think that the plates might be glueing together with a super fine oil film, causing major drag. (I won't go into a long explanation of why this is possible - its to do with surface tension. The thicker the film, the easier it is to break things apart.)

So.... Decided to complete the return leg home, around 10 miles, using clutch on every change, not even tapping down 2 at a time as usual. The idea being to re-introduce oil between the plates more often, keeping the film a bit thicker. (Maybe!)

Result? Aha! Much better changes. Found neutral at a couple of lights both stationary and just rolling to halt.

Relief all round!Blah:rockon:

Then... Look away if you don't like the notion of a grown man crying in disbelief inside his helmet....

It started happening AGAIN. Every junction became a nightmare of jumping on the lever and hoisting it back desperately trying to find the elusive N word.
When it did engage each time, there was significant drag causing the bike to want to move forward. Had to hold it on the brake. Stopped the engine twice at lights and rock the bike to find N. Still difficult even then!

I have now seriously strained the muscle in my left shin.:shakehead:

This is my 3rd FZ and 2nd S2 and I've not had this problem before. My location/riding style has not changed either.

I guess it could be time for the dreaded stealership visit.

UNLESS ANYONE HERE HAS A BETTER IDEA!!!!:don'tknow:

I don't get it. What the heck has happened? I looked closely at the components and there did not seem to be any damage. The actuator arm turned freely. There are no kinks in the cable. The lever works fine

I hope you're doing the N search at every light for testing purposes and it's not how you actually normally ride. Should almost never be in N on the street.

Here is how I would try to test the clutch/cable:
When you get to a point when you feel some power going to the rear wheel, even though clutch is fully squeezed in, put the bike up on center stand and make sure the rear wheel is spinning (in 1st, with clutch fully in). Try to press the clutch slave lever as far in as you can by hand (farther than it goes by using clutch lever on the handlebar) and see if that stops the wheel from turning.. or at least slows it down. Report your findings!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yep, it sounds like the clutch isn't releasing fully, thus the sticky gears.

Did you happen to notice the release bearing in the center pressure plate? Pressed lightly into the "Pressure plate" assembly, under the clutch cover. (kinda unusual to fail)

Also, there are some marks for the clutch that have to line up upon re-assembly (The mark on the PP MUST line up with the mark on the INNER "clutch boss" (the center part of the clutch, very easy to miss)

And the pull arm, as you look down seems to be moving fully when you pull in the clutch lever?

Lastly, did you check the "steels" for ANY WARPAGE on a piece of glass? Spring lenth as well?

BTW, I just changed my oil this am to Motul 7100 as well. As I warmed it up to do a level check, I noticed, (in neutral) absolutly no parasitic drag to the rear wheel, even with some revving.

 

[Erci]

BTW, I just changed my oil this am to Motul 7100 as well. As I warmed it up to do a level check, I noticed, (in neutral) absolutly no parasitic drag to the rear wheel, even with some revving.

Same here with Rotella. Once the bike is warmed up, rear wheel does not spin on center stand even with revs.

 

[FinalImpact]

As Scott mentioned, if the plates are not flat the clutch can drag. Also, did you notice any hot spots or discoloration on the steel plates? Blue, purple, black, brown are all bad colors in the realm of using them again.

If the plates are good upon install, I'd do a couple of brisk drag style launches involving some level of clutch slip. Its not gonna kill it.

New clutches have lots of fiber protruding and often cling to the steel for dear life. Rip on it and report back. << Although I'd only do this if:
A) it pulls like normal, B) you know beyond a doubt its assembled correctly.

FWIW: a cable that pulls in the sheath w/out a load can be very misleading. That is, it may pull easy with no work being done and bind harshly with a load applied.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

FWIW: a cable that pulls in the sheath w/out a load can be very misleading. That is, it may pull easy with no work being done and bind harshly with a load applied.

+1 especially on this ^^^.

Load on the cable makes a very big difference on if its going to pull fully or only partially.

I usually use a pressure tool and cable specific oil to lube the clutch cable. I follow that up with maybe a tea spoon of 10w30 synthetic motor oil down the upper sheath. That additional 10w30 makes a world of difference in the clutch pull. The inner cable making that upper 90 degree turn, there's a lot of friction there...

 

[foxbass]

When I took the old clutch out I noticed that in fact it is in good condition. No evidence of burning/slipping or warpage. All steels look like new too. I was also careful to put the pressure plate back correctly aligned. As I'm a design engineer, the first thing I noticed was the alignment marks. I also made sure I did not flip any of the steels. Everything was dripping with oil when assembled. The whole stack fitted back snugly as indeed it was when I first saw it. The clutch plates are not significantly worn or marked in any way either.
I assume the centre pull shaft with its rack teeth is supposed to be loose in the centre bearing as it would need to self centre once released and not interfere with the smooth running of the bearing. The bearing otherwise was clean and rotated well.
I also looked down several times during the ride to watch the slave arm operate. It returned to stop (marks also aligned) with cable play to spare. about 20mm play at the lever end ball.
There no tell-tale odd sounds from the assembly old or new. Just that slight whirr once the lever is pulled.

Interestingly, if neutral is found easily there is no drag on the rear wheel at lights. But if its being a pig then the bike creeps. So this is an on/off problem signified by the ease of getting neutral.

Oh, and everyone in London UK needs neutral plenty during a commute. If I lived out of town I would only need it at the end of a ride. The selection of neutral is highly dependent upon circumstances/traffic conditions. Plus I'm given to understand that it keeps the heat down in the clutch itself as you are not in gear with clutch disengaged.

I got home and gave the chain a quick spray. Put her up on the centre stand with the engine running. Rear wheel did not move with hot oil.

I'm still baffled

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sounds like everything is correct. When in neutral, it doesn't matter about the clutch as the gears are NOT engauged.

Your issue is definitly thru the clutch, the dragging specifically.

ANY drag (which you seem to have alot of) is causing your issues.

**Just for S&G's, I just measured the LOWER ARM pull movement amount on my 2007, stock arm(no KN mod).

It was measured from the center of the pin (that connects to the lever, while at rest) to the center of the same pin (pulled all the way in). That measurement was 13mm's .

That 13mm is from full release to full disengaugment. Can you check and measure how far your lever is moving?

BTW, with everything adjusted, do you have a little bit of free play at the lower arm?

Also, there is a small return spring at the base of that arm, is that spring still there, installed correctly? It should be pulling that lower "arm" back out (towards the release position).


I'm leaning towards that cable being bound up and not allowing full movement of that arm to disengauge the clutch..

Please post that amount of movement of the arm, spring still there, etc...

 

[FinalImpact]

I've seen lever action diaphram clutches do weird stuff an not release as the spring steel fatigues. normal dry clutches have the wafer spring inside the disc that go flat from metal fatigue. That can make for a binary clutch mode; but these don't have those failure modes. However, they can fail are but in a different way. They either work don't work, or slip from too much clearance - i.e. lack of pressure to contain the load.

I didn't see if yours has a K Noodle, but if it does, that 13mm measure has to been done based upon the same length arm from the shaft to the fulcrum. Also clutch adjustment up top will alter how far the lever moves down below.

In the time I've been here cables have failed and that would be variable from pull to pull potentially. But to my knowledge no hardware has failed interanlly accept the discs themselves when subject to abuse.

Also, this trans has its input shaft spinning in neutral. Just the output shaft has gears spinning on it which do try to drag the output shaft to rotate.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I also looked down several times during the ride to watch the slave arm operate. It returned to stop (marks also aligned) with cable play to spare. about 20mm play at the lever end ball.

The lower lever returning to its marks is good but thats the FULLY engauged spot that your not having an issue with..

I keep my free play maybe 10MM at the hand lever. Please try tightening up the play to almost nothing (just for testing purposes) and see if the clutch FULLY DISENGAUGES, ( or gets that 13mm of movement at the lower lever). If it does, you've ruled out the clutch assembly (everthing n the engine).

***Also, pull the clutch lever itself and inspect the pivot bolt, the lever and the BUSHING. Another member (and several on the FJR forum) found that bushing worn out as well as the lever itself (loosing the clutch disengaugement just like you)***.

For that lever/pivot point, I use Yamaha marine, waterproof marine grease.

 

[foxbass]

Ok, thanks Scott.
Just went to check.
Put her up on centre stand. Cold.
Stood on left side of bike leaning over to see clutch actuator arm from above. Pull lever.
The arm has an elbow to allow the end to swivel keeping the cable lined up.
Using that elbow point as a datum pulling the lever gave around 9-10mm total movement. I pushed the arm manually with the handle of a tool and got the same. The arm has a limited travel and stops dead at that point. The cable could never pull it beyond that point. I can even feel it at the bar lever.
At rest, there is 2mm of play in the arm measured at the elbow. I rechecked the lever play, checked the pinch bolt was not too tight and lubed it in case.

My latest theory is that either the thrust face of the pull shaft that pulls on the clutch plate is worn or the bearing track is badly worn. Either case would mean the shaft has run out of teeth in its rack as it engages with the actuator arm shaft.

My reasoning is that as I replaced the clutch cover I had to line up the pull shaft with the boss in the cover then turn the arm shaft to engage the teeth and wind the pull shaft in thus drawing the cover into place.

Now if the bearing has worn out, the pull shaft would be pulled into the cover boss further so that when the actuator arm is pulled the pull shaft rack would run out of teeth and the mechanism would stop dead just shy of complete clutch disengagement.

That all said, with her up on the stand, I started up, let the engine warm and selected 1st. With the bar lever still pulled, wheel creep. (I know this to be pretty normal as it did so on all my bikes) I could stop it with ease with my shoe though. Same deal in neutral. Once stopped the wheel stays there.

Tried second and same thing. Pulled on the lever in both 1st and 2nd and pressed the foot brake. In each case the wheel stopped and remained stopped once brake released.

I did also take the oil filler cap off. Pulling the bar lever gave about 2mm of pressure plate movement.

This is all beginning to point to that darned thrust bearing.
Anyone else had this fail? I live in London and am constantly gear changing.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well, its narrowed down to that lower lever/mechanism (even manually, W/O the cable) NOT moving/releasing the clutch fully.

I don't think I've heard of that bearing or the splined shaft failing however something down there is obviously too loose/worn. Bearing do fail.

Unfortunatly, I think you'll have to pull that cover and check for excessive slop in that release mechanism/gears, etc as its NOT pulling the clutch plates apart fully...



Also, something that occured to me, ecpecially with that mark being off (at the lower lever).


**There's a "C" clip and washer atop the release shaft that holds the lower arm on. I believe (might be wrong) but I'm pretty sure there's a mark on that shaft to "clock" the arm to the shaft correctly. (I just tried pulling mine off to confirm but busted the tip of my C-Clip remover).

Please pull that c-clip off and check for the proper alignment. That being off (if it is) would explain why you hit a dead solid stop even manually pulling that arm.

We need to get all the appropriate marks dead on really before you can (or actually should) go further..

I did look in the Yamaha shop manual and couldn't find anything re the mark...


If there are no marks on that shaft, turn it clockwise so its taking up all the slack inside the case(ready to release the clutch). Then slip the arm back over lining it up with the marks on the outside of the case.

Now the arm/shaft, at rest, is NOW ready to pull the clutch plates FULLY apart (short of a worn part inside)..

Make sense?


Do you have a shop manual for spec's?