jrf
Junior Member
Yep sure looks like your the most UNBIASED person you know. " it is simple americans are gun mad and love to carry guns" Yep sure sounds unbiased to me
Carrying a concealed weapon???
- Thread starter fz6joker
- Start date
Yep sure looks like your the most UNBIASED person you know. " it is simple americans are gun mad and love to carry guns" Yep sure sounds unbiased to me
regder
Junior Member
You guys ever think of the big picture here? Why is gun crime so rampant in the states where as most modern western countries have considerably less?
A poster stated earlier that his house was broken into and two handguns stolen which were then used to perpetrate additional crimes. How would you feel if your legal firearm was stolen and then used to kill someone? I'm sure most of these illegal guns that everyone is afraid of come from legal gun owners. Which then breeds the mentality that regular citizens need more guns to deal with the rising tide of illegal gun ownership. It's an endless cycle which needs to be cut off at a point. Look at England, even the police don't carry guns and they have one of the lowest gun crime rates internationally.
Is allowing the carry of concealed weapons a solution to this problem of violence or does it perpetuate it? I'm sure we all dream of living in a safe society so what is the solution here? If every responsible adult is trained and knows how to use a firearm, will the rate of violence decrease or increase?
some interesting stats here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
A poster stated earlier that his house was broken into and two handguns stolen which were then used to perpetrate additional crimes. How would you feel if your legal firearm was stolen and then used to kill someone? I'm sure most of these illegal guns that everyone is afraid of come from legal gun owners. Which then breeds the mentality that regular citizens need more guns to deal with the rising tide of illegal gun ownership. It's an endless cycle which needs to be cut off at a point. Look at England, even the police don't carry guns and they have one of the lowest gun crime rates internationally.
Is allowing the carry of concealed weapons a solution to this problem of violence or does it perpetuate it? I'm sure we all dream of living in a safe society so what is the solution here? If every responsible adult is trained and knows how to use a firearm, will the rate of violence decrease or increase?
some interesting stats here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
KenpoTex
Junior Member
Do a search for Kennesaw, Georgia
That aside, our 2nd Amendment is not about having guns for self-defense. It's about having a last line of defense against government tyranny. All the bickering about crime rates and whatnot is peripheral and irrelevant to the real issue.
regder
Junior Member
One small predominantly white upper middle class suburban town does not an argument make
Ah huh, so the real issue is government tyranny which we must protect ourselves from. Is that why people should have the right to carry a gun when they go shopping? Ya know, in case the government tries to enslave you or something when you're out buying a six pack
What sort of situation do you foresee which would require the regular citizen to rise up and join a militia to act against their government and use these deadly weapons? A situation that the rest of the modern world seems to sleep at night just fine not realizing that it could happen to them too
fz6joker, I saw a couple of good suggestions buried within all of this political diatribe and grandstanding, hope they helped.
Wow, just read the whole thread from start to finish and am absolutely amazed by some of the comments...Good to see controversy is alive and well.
The answer is simple. As long as it is legal in the US to own a firearm and obtain a CCW then you have the choice to purchase a firearm and obtain a CCW, after that you have the choice to carry or not.
If you want nothing to do with firearms, well, don't get one.
With regard to the rest of the worlds feelings about the US. If the US is so horrible (perfect? by no means) why do so many immigrate here? No, we are not the land of milk and honey, but many immigrants are able to provide better lives for their children and grandchildren than they would have been able to provide in their original country.
On a final note, other countries don't seem to let their Principles get in the way when it comes to recieving US stimulus funds or aid.
Wow
, just read the whole thread from start to finish and am absolutely amazed by some of the comments...Good to see controversy is alive and well.The answer is simple. As long as it is legal in the US to own a firearm and obtain a CCW then you have the choice to purchase a firearm and obtain a CCW, after that you have the choice to carry or not.
If you want nothing to do with firearms, well, don't get one.
With regard to the rest of the worlds feelings about the US. If the US is so horrible (perfect? by no means) why do so many immigrate here? No, we are not the land of milk and honey, but many immigrants are able to provide better lives for their children and grandchildren than they would have been able to provide in their original country.
On a final note, other countries don't seem to let their Principles get in the way when it comes to recieving US stimulus funds or aid.
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KenpoTex
Junior Member
We're talking about two separate issues (though they are somewhat related). Personal protection and defense against oppression.
As far as the concealed carry thing: People, regardless of where they live, have the natural right to protect themselves against threats to their safety...end of story. Denying them the means to accomplish that is, in my way of thinking, the same as denying the basic right.
With regard to the defense against oppression issue: What sort of situation can I envision where people would have to take up arms against a government or military force (theirs or someone else's)? The obvious answer is when people feel that the government has become intolerable. History is full of such examples, in general, pick any revolution or insurrection. Regardless of who's side may have been "right," one can't deny the effectiveness of a motivated guerrilla/irregular/militia force. If you want a specific example, from relatively recently, consider the battle of Athens, Tennessee.
I believe that people should have the option for personal protection or armed resistance, even if the need never arises. Those that are unarmed are at the mercy of those who are. If someone wants to go along believing that nothing bad (whether on a personal or a national scale) will ever happen, so be it...they'd better be right though, or there's not much they're going to be able to do about it.
RailRider
Junior Member
I ride with a friend and he has a permit and carries. I have a permit also and will be buying a gun like his to carry also. It is getting worse every day especially with the economy the way it is. I would think that the time the gun might be needed is at maybe a restaurant or convenience store where we stop on our rides and not on the bikes. I cant get out of my head the news stories of the gunmen taking everyone to the back and shooting them. Also, the man and his wife in the restaurant parking lot that were shot while being robbed. How many times has that happened? I will be carrying at other times also, whenever I go off alone or with family. I had rather have one with me and not need it than not have one and need it. Doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure that one out. It doesnt have to be a canon. Here is what my friend carries in his front pocket...only 8.3 ounces.
Kel Tec
Kel Tec
Z
Zealadin
This post results in permant ban of the member.
Just to clarify, your aggravated attack on someone who displayed a different opinion to you is what makes you a redneck (suprised you didn't try to steal his oil while you where at it), while the fuss you made about a simple comment is what makes you a drama queen.
Your comment about diversity in your country I totally ignored, because its irrelevant. No really, the only reason you had to add it was to try and legitimise your post by a blanket statement with no basis in the arguement. (Unless your claiming all the diversity is what has caused you to need guns?)
I've also probably travelled to more countries than you know the name of, and I have experienced first hand what Americans can be like.
Personally I find it more funny than offensive, but being well travelled I am more aware of how other countries sensitivities can be upset by the way american's portray themselves and act when they travel. Compounded by the reputation of your government its a bad place to be.
Its also not -all- american tourists, its just a large part.
I didn't go into the behaviours often seen because I didn't feel like stirring that pot, since YOU where the one being a rude ignorant prat, not all the other people in the thread, and were pretty much being exactly what the rest of the world hates about americans: self righteous, blindly patriotic (generally backed up by no knowledge of countries outside america) and rude, particularly about anything non american. Oh and I forgot ignorant.
American foreign politics? You really must be blind or stupid, other countries don't appreciate america sticking its nose in everyone elses business and trying to act like global police while making war for oil. I'm certainly not claiming that your alone in this, but its a tiny tip of the iceberg of issues people have with the government who run your country and are voted in by a majority vote of a minority of the population.
Bush pretty much made your country look like a bunch of uneducated hics and rednecks.
Having a guy who could barely put a sentence together leading one of the most powerful nations in the world. Good stuff.
Of course you don't HAVE to vote, but when you don't you are allowing someone like this to be elected and yes it does colour the worlds veiw of you, because in the end you are responsible for your leaders.
The stereotype of Americans is blown out of proportion, because alot of people really hate your government, and it largely colours their view, even the most educated and intelligent american's I have met are always deeply patriotic and their most common mistake is just not understanding the rest of the world just isn't like America (but often think it should be).
I know it must be really stunning to realise that people outside America think you are a bunch of cowboys with your guns, mainly because all those countries have good reasons (to them) why their population aren't allowed them. That being said taking offence at being called a cowboy is pretty pathetic. Should be a bit more thick skinned after being led by a man with the IQ of a small dog for the last few terms.
Of course your American, so your side of the arguement must be right? Right?
Must be frustrating not being able to shoot me for disagreeing I imagine.
Just to clarify, your aggravated attack on someone who displayed a different opinion to you is what makes you a redneck (suprised you didn't try to steal his oil while you where at it), while the fuss you made about a simple comment is what makes you a drama queen.
Your comment about diversity in your country I totally ignored, because its irrelevant. No really, the only reason you had to add it was to try and legitimise your post by a blanket statement with no basis in the arguement. (Unless your claiming all the diversity is what has caused you to need guns?)
I've also probably travelled to more countries than you know the name of, and I have experienced first hand what Americans can be like.
Personally I find it more funny than offensive, but being well travelled I am more aware of how other countries sensitivities can be upset by the way american's portray themselves and act when they travel. Compounded by the reputation of your government its a bad place to be.
Its also not -all- american tourists, its just a large part.
I didn't go into the behaviours often seen because I didn't feel like stirring that pot, since YOU where the one being a rude ignorant prat, not all the other people in the thread, and were pretty much being exactly what the rest of the world hates about americans: self righteous, blindly patriotic (generally backed up by no knowledge of countries outside america) and rude, particularly about anything non american. Oh and I forgot ignorant.
American foreign politics? You really must be blind or stupid, other countries don't appreciate america sticking its nose in everyone elses business and trying to act like global police while making war for oil. I'm certainly not claiming that your alone in this, but its a tiny tip of the iceberg of issues people have with the government who run your country and are voted in by a majority vote of a minority of the population.
Bush pretty much made your country look like a bunch of uneducated hics and rednecks.
Having a guy who could barely put a sentence together leading one of the most powerful nations in the world. Good stuff.
Of course you don't HAVE to vote, but when you don't you are allowing someone like this to be elected and yes it does colour the worlds veiw of you, because in the end you are responsible for your leaders.
The stereotype of Americans is blown out of proportion, because alot of people really hate your government, and it largely colours their view, even the most educated and intelligent american's I have met are always deeply patriotic and their most common mistake is just not understanding the rest of the world just isn't like America (but often think it should be).
I know it must be really stunning to realise that people outside America think you are a bunch of cowboys with your guns, mainly because all those countries have good reasons (to them) why their population aren't allowed them. That being said taking offence at being called a cowboy is pretty pathetic. Should be a bit more thick skinned after being led by a man with the IQ of a small dog for the last few terms.
Of course your American, so your side of the arguement must be right? Right?
Must be frustrating not being able to shoot me for disagreeing I imagine.
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Raid The Revenge
Super Member
Whoa! It's time for me to haul-out the textbooks. Here goes:
Let's all talk about a little thing called hegemony. This basically enables people to live around a dominant ideology, using proper etiquette techniques. Actually, it tends to erupt when one nation exercises it's dominant ideologies over another, but that's besides the point.
It's become a dominant ideology for US citizens to own firearms. It is considered natural, normal and legitimate to own a firearm in the US. With that being said, it may cause people to feel sensitive, because they don't want that type of hegemony to invade their beliefs.
My point is this: be aware that other people don't always share the same ideals. I believe it's fair for someone to carry a firearm; especially if they obtain proper certification. However, some people don't, so expect some nasty comments about it.
Don't bother trying to justify your actions; just state your opinion and leave. We don't need the "redneck" stuff. Just state your opinion and go. That is all.
Solution is simple really...take guns away....people dont get shot!
Raid The Revenge
Super Member
I once thought the same thing: Why don't we just ban all firearms so people don't shoot each other?
In order to do this, you'd need to utilize formal control. The more you use formal control, the more unstable a society becomes.
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
From the thread, and all the media reports about gun violence, and the prolific portrayal of weapons and homicide on popular US tv shows, I'm wondering how it can become more unstable. This thread has encouraged me to do some searching on the issue, and one thing that stood out amongst the stats is the issue that there's a higher risk of domestic violence against spouses (Is the plural "spice"?) in houses with firearms, and also the high rate of use of weapons in suicide. If firearms weren't used, then other means would be sought, so I doubt banning firearms would see any reduction in suicide.
Z
Zealadin
People don't need to share the same ideals, they just need to have enough respect not to shove someones comments down their throat when they don't agree. Which is why I started commenting, since I saw someone from my own nation being shouted down for stating an -opinion-.
From Wikki:
This basically states that if you don't follow the dominant ideal you are sidelined in society, allowing society to strengthen around ideals that are beneficial to it (and the people in charge) and is basically a form of promoted ignorance in some cases, ie the days of the ruling noble classes in england. "Thats the way it is, so its right". It is also a form of prejudice and discrimination.
I don't have anything against carrying guns, because we can't do it in my country so its a moot point.
The biggest arguement for guns is "someone else has one, so I need one too", its a much harder point to argue when only rarely are they used by criminals, and are totally illegal.
Luckily (sarcasm) here if you defend yourself here your as likely to end up in jail for the rest of your life as the criminal who attacked you.
I never attacked anyones right to carry a weapon, I attacked someones postings because they had already attacked someone elses and opened the doorway. Just like the guns arguement, once people start getting them, everyone should have them to keep it fair.
From Wikki:
This basically states that if you don't follow the dominant ideal you are sidelined in society, allowing society to strengthen around ideals that are beneficial to it (and the people in charge) and is basically a form of promoted ignorance in some cases, ie the days of the ruling noble classes in england. "Thats the way it is, so its right". It is also a form of prejudice and discrimination.
I don't have anything against carrying guns, because we can't do it in my country so its a moot point.
The biggest arguement for guns is "someone else has one, so I need one too", its a much harder point to argue when only rarely are they used by criminals, and are totally illegal.
Luckily (sarcasm) here if you defend yourself here your as likely to end up in jail for the rest of your life as the criminal who attacked you.
I never attacked anyones right to carry a weapon, I attacked someones postings because they had already attacked someone elses and opened the doorway. Just like the guns arguement, once people start getting them, everyone should have them to keep it fair.
we dont have guns in oz.....well not legally, and our society is pretty damn stable!
I really dont understand the need to carry a gun.....people carrying guns only reinforces the need for others to carry guns....
would rather drink a beer, smoke a spliff, and smile at everyone..there's enough violence in the world, why encourage more....
But i do understand that America is a very different society to our in Oz.
:thumbup:
Fred
M em b er e d
I'm going to skip over the political flamewar and see if I can answer the question.
Carrying on your person while riding is not a good idea.
1. It's not accessible easily.
2. You should be ATGATT, which means heavy gloves. You'd have a hard time operating a weapon safely while wearing those gloves.
3. In an accident, you now have a heavy lump of metal strapped to you. This will bruise flesh and possibly break bones. And while the odds are against it, there is a slim chance that the weapon could fire while you're tumbling down the road. (A very, very very slim chance)
Anytime you would need it while on the bike (a road rage incident) your first step is to pull off of the road. Get off of the bike, remove gloves, and then get the weapon out. Forget about drawing or using the weapon while riding the bike. This ain't Hollywood.
And this leaves the weapon as a secondary option, where it should be. On the bike your first option is stupendous acceleration, great handling, and the ability to split lanes if you need to get away from somebody. Use those abilities first.
Because of all that, I recommend carrying it in the tankbag instead. It's easier to reach, more comfortable, and safer.
Once you have reached your destination, transfer the weapon to your CC holster of choice. Or just leave it in the tankbag. Women carry in purses all the time, and it seems to work just fine for them.
Fred
Fred
M em b er e d
I have carried in the past in my tank bag while riding. (I am a CCW permit holder) Mostly though if I had something with me it was because I was on my way to the shooting range. I transported like this often and got a few funny looks. Even had cops ride behind me then go on by like nothing was out of place. This was in Georgia though, so I was probably expected to have a gun rack on my bike. :Flash:
This was in Georgia though, so I was probably expected to have a gun rack on my bike. :Flash:Kilbane83
Member With Members
I'm goin to copy and paste my post from another gun thread because I really hope it gets read. I know it's long, but maybe some of the oversea's folks will change their minds about "rednecks and cowboys" shooting eachother over road rage or for the secret prize from a box of crackerjacks. I'm not interested in politics, so I've tried to keep it to the simple facts.
It seems alot of people are uninformed on the concealed handgun process. It's a 2 day training class(15hrs) with extensive background checks and costs ~$250 and alot of running from various state department buildings getting various signitures and having those signitures noterized to get it. IE a huge PITA. If you have anything above a speeding ticket on your record you're not getting a permit. The class goes over situations and focuses on situational awareness, something any motorcyclist should be practicing at all times. Trying to avoid situations before they happen, but as we all know, sometimes things goes down.
Any class that has to do with firearms, be it hunting, range, hell even shooting bb guns in boyscouts the first thing they should tell you is to never point a firearm at something you do not intend to destroy, and to treat every firearm as if it is loaded even if you "know" it is not.
The class also focuses on how to successfully communicate with people and bring them up to an adult level. Adult mentality will generally not result to violence, basically if you speak calmly and rationally and try to agree with the person rather than directly confront them, it changes thier behavior emmensly. IE, back down and see if the other party calms down so you can resolve the issue. and go on your merry way. .
And as a final resort the class pounds the idea that you use the minimum amount of force nessecary to stop the action being directed towards you. If you're able to walk in a different direction do it, if you're able to go into a public area do it. Warn the person verbally, "Hey buddy I know you're there, stop following me." If the person continues to advance or does not respond, and you get backed into a corner than it's obvious they don't just want to ask for directions. At that point you should feel threatened for your life and should draw your firearm with the intent to kill. Hopefully they'll tuck tail and run, but hesitation could mean life and death, after I pull my gun if they take another step that will be thier last. I have no doubt about that.
Unfortunatly, sometimes trying to talk to the guy running at you with a crowbar isn't a option. What do you do? Do you think you can outrun him? Or do you Know you can stop him. When my well being depends on it, I prefer to know
The class then goes over the ramifications of such an action. Things like if you shoot someone in fear of your life, the bullet goes through them and kills or injures another person, you goto prison. If you shoot someone to breaking into your neighbors house that you've known forever, and they didn't ask you specifally to watch thier property, you goto jail. If your gun is visable in public you can have your license suspended and face a fine. There are very specific times and situations where lethal force is nessecary, or legal. It's not like being a cowboy shooting people at the drop of a hat or something.
You have to pass a written test going over various situations, when you can and cannot use it, proper handling of your firearm, where it is legal to carry, and how to carry it.
You also have to qualify at a shooting range, from 3yards, 10yards, and 20yards. You also have to renew and requalify at the range every 4 years.
The point is, the class isn't about getting a license to shoot people, it's about getting the tools to not have to shoot someone.
I personally carry my gun, (Khar .40) in my jacket, I have sewn extra CE form into the pocket in the event of a crash it will hopefully keep it from doing more than some bruising, should diffenatly keep it from puncturing anything. In my truck I carry it in a lower back holster. Will I ever use it while moving on my bike? No, it'd be damn near impossible and there is no point. There is no situation I can think of that you would suddenly find yourself in while moving that would require the use of a firearm. Now if I"m stopped at a stoplight and some guy pulls a gun on me, am I going to have time to pull it out of my pocket and shoot the guy? No. I'd simply get off the bike and give him what he wanted at that point until I had the opportunity to pull my firearm and stop the action. I'm not letting some asshat take off with possessions so he can go on with his life and take someone elses possessions, or possibly life down the road.
Basically having a CHL (Concealed handgun License) is a huge responsibility, not something people get lightly or on a whim. Will I ever have to use my gun? Maybe, I hope not. Will I be thankful I have it if I do need to use it? Without a doubt. Is a cop going to show up and save the day? Not a chance in hell.
I have choosen not to be a victim.
It seems alot of people are uninformed on the concealed handgun process. It's a 2 day training class(15hrs) with extensive background checks and costs ~$250 and alot of running from various state department buildings getting various signitures and having those signitures noterized to get it. IE a huge PITA. If you have anything above a speeding ticket on your record you're not getting a permit. The class goes over situations and focuses on situational awareness, something any motorcyclist should be practicing at all times. Trying to avoid situations before they happen, but as we all know, sometimes things goes down.
Any class that has to do with firearms, be it hunting, range, hell even shooting bb guns in boyscouts the first thing they should tell you is to never point a firearm at something you do not intend to destroy, and to treat every firearm as if it is loaded even if you "know" it is not.
The class also focuses on how to successfully communicate with people and bring them up to an adult level. Adult mentality will generally not result to violence, basically if you speak calmly and rationally and try to agree with the person rather than directly confront them, it changes thier behavior emmensly. IE, back down and see if the other party calms down so you can resolve the issue. and go on your merry way. .
And as a final resort the class pounds the idea that you use the minimum amount of force nessecary to stop the action being directed towards you. If you're able to walk in a different direction do it, if you're able to go into a public area do it. Warn the person verbally, "Hey buddy I know you're there, stop following me." If the person continues to advance or does not respond, and you get backed into a corner than it's obvious they don't just want to ask for directions. At that point you should feel threatened for your life and should draw your firearm with the intent to kill. Hopefully they'll tuck tail and run, but hesitation could mean life and death, after I pull my gun if they take another step that will be thier last. I have no doubt about that.
Unfortunatly, sometimes trying to talk to the guy running at you with a crowbar isn't a option. What do you do? Do you think you can outrun him? Or do you Know you can stop him. When my well being depends on it, I prefer to know
The class then goes over the ramifications of such an action. Things like if you shoot someone in fear of your life, the bullet goes through them and kills or injures another person, you goto prison. If you shoot someone to breaking into your neighbors house that you've known forever, and they didn't ask you specifally to watch thier property, you goto jail. If your gun is visable in public you can have your license suspended and face a fine. There are very specific times and situations where lethal force is nessecary, or legal. It's not like being a cowboy shooting people at the drop of a hat or something.
You have to pass a written test going over various situations, when you can and cannot use it, proper handling of your firearm, where it is legal to carry, and how to carry it.
You also have to qualify at a shooting range, from 3yards, 10yards, and 20yards. You also have to renew and requalify at the range every 4 years.
The point is, the class isn't about getting a license to shoot people, it's about getting the tools to not have to shoot someone.
I personally carry my gun, (Khar .40) in my jacket, I have sewn extra CE form into the pocket in the event of a crash it will hopefully keep it from doing more than some bruising, should diffenatly keep it from puncturing anything. In my truck I carry it in a lower back holster. Will I ever use it while moving on my bike? No, it'd be damn near impossible and there is no point. There is no situation I can think of that you would suddenly find yourself in while moving that would require the use of a firearm. Now if I"m stopped at a stoplight and some guy pulls a gun on me, am I going to have time to pull it out of my pocket and shoot the guy? No. I'd simply get off the bike and give him what he wanted at that point until I had the opportunity to pull my firearm and stop the action. I'm not letting some asshat take off with possessions so he can go on with his life and take someone elses possessions, or possibly life down the road.
Basically having a CHL (Concealed handgun License) is a huge responsibility, not something people get lightly or on a whim. Will I ever have to use my gun? Maybe, I hope not. Will I be thankful I have it if I do need to use it? Without a doubt. Is a cop going to show up and save the day? Not a chance in hell.
I have choosen not to be a victim.
RailRider
Junior Member
Nothing usefull was said here. (edited wrightme43)
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sempul
Junior Member
im not going to read this whole post so here is some info. not sure if it has been covered and if it has then im sorry. i carry a "baby" glock .40 cal pistol on me when i leave. as i am a police officer i am allowed and expected to do this. if i ride in the city i work in then i am required by our policy nad procedure to wear a weapon. i curently wear it on an ankle holster. i have never had a problem with it even when i wrecked with it. (******* drivers pulling out without looking) i did go down once while wearing a full size sig saur .40 cal on my side. it wasnt bad other than it did bruise my hip bone and had to wear the belt funny at work. otherwise there is not much to put. if you would like any further info or have wuestions you can send them to [email protected]
