The right to Self-Defense?

DownrangeFuture

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People ask me all the time why I carry a gun for self defense and defense of others. Statements like "you just want to be a vigilate" or "you're just looking to shoot someone" couldn't be farther from the truth. People that just wanted to shoot someone would just go do that, not go through the process of getting licenced, finger-printed, and paying hundreds of dollars. If I wanted to be a vigilante, I'd go be one. They're usually called private investigators or bounty hunters. And comments to the effect of, "if it's so dangerous there, just don't go there" have no merit. Criminals don't say to themselves, "Well, that's a nice neighborhood, let's go find someplace else to mug somebody."

I carry a gun because while Jacksonville has a fairly low response time to "Priority 1" calls, at around 5 minutes and 23 seconds, if I'm calling in that I'm being shot at, 5 minutes is too long. Period. The FBI says that most violent robberies involving shootings last less than 3 minutes. By the time the cops get there the criminal is long gone and you're dead or dying. Cities that openly ban the carrying of guns or self-defense items altogether tend to have the longest response times ironically. New York City 8:32, LA 7:58, Chicago 7:47. This isn't a slap at police officers, they do the best they can, but they cannot be everywhere at once. Criminals know this. Hollywood knows this too. Ever wonder while the bad guys always plan leaving on 5 minutes after the alarm goes off? Only the best police departments in the world have 5 minute response times.

I'll let this post say the rest. It is concise and well thought out. I just want to add that #9 strikes home the most. Think of all the horrible shootings in our time. Now imagine that 1-3 people near the gunman had been armed responsibly. Want to make a statement by killing a bunch of people? There isn't a school or college in this country that allows people to legally carry functioning firearms...



There's a lot of misinformation out there these days about people who have chosen to exercise their right to carry a concealed weapon according to the provisions made by state governments. Here are a few things that Concealed Weapon Permit (CWP) holders want people to know about them. Now of course there are exceptions to these general rules but I think you'll find these things to be true about the vast majority of your legally carrying neighbors.:
1) We don't carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where one goes and what one does. We don't walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don't hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. A gun is our last resort, not our first.
2) We don't think we are cops, spies, or superheros. We aren't hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don't take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don't believe our guns give us any authority over our fellow citizens. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you want to take this kind of responsibility for your personal safety. Except for extraordinary circumstances your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.
3) We are less likely, not more likely, to be involved in fights or "rage" incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don't pull our guns to settle arguments or to attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.
4) We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other security measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.
5) Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable. Modern firearms are well-made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply laying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to discharge on its own.
6) We do not believe in the concept of "accidental discharges". There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun "going off" was the result of negligence on somebody's part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.
7) Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times when an observant fellow citizen may spot our firearm or the outline of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also realize that our society does much to condition our fellow citizens to have sometimes irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good judgment and clear thinking if they feel the need to take action. Please recognize that it's very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private security. Please don't generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like "there's a guy running around in the store with a gun" or even simply "I saw a man with a gun in the store" could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the incident.
8) The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us would avoid that place all together if possible. However, we recognize that trouble could occur at any place and at any time. Criminals do not observe or obey "gun-free zone" laws. If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on "how safe" we think a location is.
9) Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is appropriate to save lives. Review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee or choose to end their own life. Lives are saved when resistance engages a violent criminal. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.
10) The fact that criminals know that some of the population may be armed at any given time helps to deter violence against all citizens. Permit holders don't believe that every person should necessarily be armed. We recognize that some people may not be temperamentally suited to carry a firearm or simply may wish not to for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please oppose measures to limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As mentioned before: criminals do not observe "gun free zones". Help by not supporting laws that require citizens to be unarmed victims.
11) Those with concealed carry permits are quite likely the most conspicuously law-abiding people you will encounter. In the majority of states with a permit system, the permit holder has voluntarily submitted himself or herself to a background check involving local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. Most often, fingerprints have also been taken and submitted for examination. You can be assured that we are not criminals carrying under the shield of the law. Multiple levels of government have concurred that we have followed the law. In addition, we have spent a great deal of funds on training, equipment, and the permit process. We are not eager to jeopardize any of that through misconduct - we are well aware that if we misbehave we can lose every last penny of that investment, as well as our very freedom.
12) We would NEVER use our weapons unless it is absolutely necessary in order to save an innocent life.

Where I got it from and links to the original post/author.
12 things people should know about CWL holders

Hopefully this will help someone out on here when asked the same questions.
 

ChevyFazer

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People ask me all the time why I carry a gun for self defense and defense of others. Statements like "you just want to be a vigilate" or "you're just looking to shoot someone" couldn't be farther from the truth. People that just wanted to shoot someone would just go do that, not go through the process of getting licenced, finger-printed, and paying hundreds of dollars. If I wanted to be a vigilante, I'd go be one. They're usually called private investigators or bounty hunters. And comments to the effect of, "if it's so dangerous there, just don't go there" have no merit. Criminals don't say to themselves, "Well, that's a nice neighborhood, let's go find someplace else to mug somebody."

I carry a gun because while Jacksonville has a fairly low response time to "Priority 1" calls, at around 5 minutes and 23 seconds, if I'm calling in that I'm being shot at, 5 minutes is too long. Period. The FBI says that most violent robberies involving shootings last less than 3 minutes. By the time the cops get there the criminal is long gone and you're dead or dying. Cities that openly ban the carrying of guns or self-defense items altogether tend to have the longest response times ironically. New York City 8:32, LA 7:58, Chicago 7:47. This isn't a slap at police officers, they do the best they can, but they cannot be everywhere at once. Criminals know this. Hollywood knows this too. Ever wonder while the bad guys always plan leaving on 5 minutes after the alarm goes off? Only the best police departments in the world have 5 minute response times.

I'll let this post say the rest. It is concise and well thought out. I just want to add that #9 strikes home the most. Think of all the horrible shootings in our time. Now imagine that 1-3 people near the gunman had been armed responsibly. Want to make a statement by killing a bunch of people? There isn't a school or college in this country that allows people to legally carry functioning firearms...



There's a lot of misinformation out there these days about people who have chosen to exercise their right to carry a concealed weapon according to the provisions made by state governments. Here are a few things that Concealed Weapon Permit (CWP) holders want people to know about them. Now of course there are exceptions to these general rules but I think you'll find these things to be true about the vast majority of your legally carrying neighbors.:
1) We don't carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where one goes and what one does. We don't walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don't hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. A gun is our last resort, not our first.
2) We don't think we are cops, spies, or superheros. We aren't hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don't take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don't believe our guns give us any authority over our fellow citizens. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you want to take this kind of responsibility for your personal safety. Except for extraordinary circumstances your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.
3) We are less likely, not more likely, to be involved in fights or "rage" incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don't pull our guns to settle arguments or to attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.
4) We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other security measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.
5) Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable. Modern firearms are well-made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply laying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to discharge on its own.
6) We do not believe in the concept of "accidental discharges". There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun "going off" was the result of negligence on somebody's part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.
7) Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times when an observant fellow citizen may spot our firearm or the outline of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also realize that our society does much to condition our fellow citizens to have sometimes irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good judgment and clear thinking if they feel the need to take action. Please recognize that it's very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private security. Please don't generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like "there's a guy running around in the store with a gun" or even simply "I saw a man with a gun in the store" could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the incident.
8) The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us would avoid that place all together if possible. However, we recognize that trouble could occur at any place and at any time. Criminals do not observe or obey "gun-free zone" laws. If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on "how safe" we think a location is.
9) Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is appropriate to save lives. Review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee or choose to end their own life. Lives are saved when resistance engages a violent criminal. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.
10) The fact that criminals know that some of the population may be armed at any given time helps to deter violence against all citizens. Permit holders don't believe that every person should necessarily be armed. We recognize that some people may not be temperamentally suited to carry a firearm or simply may wish not to for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please oppose measures to limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As mentioned before: criminals do not observe "gun free zones". Help by not supporting laws that require citizens to be unarmed victims.
11) Those with concealed carry permits are quite likely the most conspicuously law-abiding people you will encounter. In the majority of states with a permit system, the permit holder has voluntarily submitted himself or herself to a background check involving local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. Most often, fingerprints have also been taken and submitted for examination. You can be assured that we are not criminals carrying under the shield of the law. Multiple levels of government have concurred that we have followed the law. In addition, we have spent a great deal of funds on training, equipment, and the permit process. We are not eager to jeopardize any of that through misconduct - we are well aware that if we misbehave we can lose every last penny of that investment, as well as our very freedom.
12) We would NEVER use our weapons unless it is absolutely necessary in order to save an innocent life.

Where I got it from and links to the original post/author.
12 things people should know about CWL holders

Hopefully this will help someone out on here when asked the same questions.

I dont think it could have been put any better....i cant stand it when i hear someone say i dont like guns in my house or anything similar to that, even if there are children in the house (as long as they are properly stored away) . All the more reason to properly teach them about firearm safety. Guns dont harm anybody or anything its the people using them improperly

Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk
 

tejkowskit

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Agreed! The people you don't want having guns or carrying guns are going to have them anyways...ILLEGALLY!
 

DownrangeFuture

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Yep. Studies show that over 90% of guns used in violent crimes weren't purchased by the offender from a gun store or a gun show. They were either stolen or not registered with the ATF. I keep all firearms either locked up in my gunsafe or on my person.

He says "most" modern firearms won't fire if dropped. But in reality all legal firearms in the US are tested for a drop of 10 feet onto concrete. If they fail, the model line is taken back to the drawing board, or if the guns are in production the entire lot that the gun was pulled from, is pulled and not sold.

The old adage is still true, guns don't kill people. Take away the guns and people will just find other ways to do so. Murder and violent crime weren't invented with the firearm. It just so happens that the only tactic better than a gun, is suprising someone with a knife.
 

Smersh

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Thanks for the post, DownrangeFuture! Really well put!

I cannot stand people talking about how gun ownership is danger to society, and I am particularly annoyed by states/cities/municipalities that make it illegal for a law-abiding, psychologically stable citizen to own a gun.
 

tejkowskit

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Good thing you guys don't live in Illinois. Gun laws here are really stringent. (Thanks a lot Cook county). You guys ever hear of a FOID card? Stands for firearm owners I.D. You must apply for one with the state police before you can purchase a gun. And must have one just to buy ammo or black powder! I think only 2 states in the U.S. have FOID cards, Illinois being one of them. We also cannot carry a concealed weapon. In some aspects I agree with the FOID card thing as Illinois (more specifically Cook county..go figure) is a "save haven" for illegals, but the laws against concealed carry piss me off.
 

ChevyFazer

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Ive said the same thing in another of your post but ill repeat it here the town i went to school in kennesaw ga, it is still a law that if you live in the city limits you must own a firearm. Mmmmmm gotta love it

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chomorro

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I want one, but here in Cali its easy to get one legally but nearly impossible to get the stuff needed to carry one. At least that is what i have heard. One day i will get to own one. My friend has a custom ar15 assault rifle?? Cant wait to shoot that at the range.
 

08fz6

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In NY you only need a permit for hand guns. As far as AR's go there is a limit to size of the clip and it can't be Fully automatic I believe is a federal law. If by customized you mean fully automatic, I wouldn't anywhere near it...
 

viviifz6

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I couldnt agree with you more. I have been waiting for my permit for 3 months now and as soon as I get I I plan to carry everyday im not at school!
 

Full Throttle

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I would love to be able to carry. I hate having to separate my gun and ammo when I drive with it. Also, doesn't really help with safety when its at home and I'm out.
 

DownrangeFuture

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In NY you only need a permit for hand guns. As far as AR's go there is a limit to size of the clip and it can't be Fully automatic I believe is a federal law. If by customized you mean fully automatic, I wouldn't anywhere near it...

Fully automatic, you only have to have an ATF permit. No federal law against owning one. Just like owning a silencer. Same deal, it's totally legal just need a permit. Although, some states regulate those further.

By customizing a weapon, most people just mean accurizing or changing the stocks, sights, etc.

My big point is that you can't (easily or at all) carry a pistol for self-defense in NY, CA or IL. In fact, in those places the right to self-defense is almost gone entirely. Why? Why should people be expected to roll over and be victims?
 

ChevyFazer

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Fully automatic, you only have to have an ATF permit. No federal law against owning one. Just like owning a silencer. Same deal, it's totally legal just need a permit. Although, some states regulate those further.

By customizing a weapon, most people just mean accurizing or changing the stocks, sights, etc.

My big point is that you can't (easily or at all) carry a pistol for self-defense in NY, CA or IL. In fact, in those places the right to self-defense is almost gone entirely. Why? Why should people be expected to roll over and be victims?

If im not mistaken really the only law governing fully auutomatic weapons is that a only that a normal citizen can not purchase a new one, you can buy a old one and register it all day long. It is even legal to purchase, own, and shoot they all mighty mini gun.....to bad there are only 7 civilian models and right now none for sale and i will also add you can even buy 50lb sacks of a binary explosive called tanerite (its suposed to be sold for exploding rifle targets) and yes just anyone can buy that with zero background checks

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FIZZER6

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The old adage is still true, guns don't kill people. Take away the guns and people will just find other ways to do so. Murder and violent crime weren't invented with the firearm. It just so happens that the only tactic better than a gun, is suprising someone with a knife.

True stuff. If you were a smart murderer you would use a knife...

I've had my Concealed Handgun permit for 3 years now. I've been asked the question before "why do you carry a gun...do you think you live in a bad area?"

Why we carry is simple. You don't drive your car without insurance. You don't leave your health or your house uninsured...why would you want to leave your life uninsured.

"When seconds count the police are only minutes away"

I am an alumni of the university of Virginia Tech where the shooting rampage happened a few years back. All those lives lost in those classrooms. It could have been stopped if one person had been armed and capable.

Like that article points out. Criminals are hesitant to commit these crimes if they know that some percentage of the victims may be armed. With gun bans it's like a feeding frenzy for violent criminals.

"When guns are outlawed...only outlaws will have guns"
 

FloppyRunner

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Why we carry is simple. You don't drive your car without insurance. You don't leave your health or your house uninsured...why would you want to leave your life uninsured.

Haha...I see and agree with your point, but it's worth pointing out that tons of people DO do those exact things. Oftentimes they fool themselves into thinking that they can't afford insurance...while they make payments on their Honda Civic they could easily go without.

Hmmm...guess I'll stop there...
 

DownrangeFuture

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The only number i disagree with is #10. A harsher potential punishment is not necessarily a deterrant. Case in point the death penalty and the anti crack laws in the 80s. They made the punishments for being caught with crack cocaine much worse than with powder cocaine to stem the rampant increase in crack use in the 1980s with almost no impact.

Well, you're referring to captiol type punishments. That's a mixed bag and for the most part criminals think they won't ever get caught. Honestly, if someone knew they were going to get caught they wouldn't deal drugs, rob people, etc.

Number #10 refers to the well documented fact that in places where citizens are armed, crime goes down about the same amount as the carry permits per capita goes up.

Think of it this way. I'm looking at a convience store. I know the camera is broke (or I have a mask). So the only deterrents are getting caught or getting shot at. The police should be there anywhere from 4 minutes to 8 minutes giving me plenty of time to get in and out. As long as I wear my mask, don't actually shoot at anyone, and don't leave anything else behind, I'm golden. But in Jacksonville, 1 out of 6 or so people has a carry permit. There are 4 people in the store. Might not be worth the risk then.

And a shooting rampage in Jacksonville? It'd most likely be at a college or high school. Because you can be assured that you're the only guy with a gun there, and if someone else brought their gun, suddenly knowing that they'd be the hero who went to prison for 20+ years if they stopped you would probably stay their hand. But if they just kept it holstered and got caught with it... 6 months top, misdomeanor, community service, and losing the carry permit.


And as far as the automatic weapons go, yes the Brady Act of '68 did make the manufacture of new fully automatic weapons for civillian use illegal. But one may get a FFL in any state to sell guns online/at gun shows, and adding a class III clause onto that is trivial. Then you could "make your own" as a dealer demo. All you're required to do in that case is show it to a police officer with the (honest) intent to sell them, and he has to sign a paper saying he/the department didn't want to buy any. And in that case state laws on the ownership of fully automatic weapons becomes moot. It's a federally registered and regulated firearm, not a state one. Did you know that before the Brady Act, anyone could buy any firearm through the mail and have it shipped to your doorstep? For $30 back then, you could have Springfield Armory mail you a 1911 and you'd just pull it out of your mailbox when it came in.


But the easiest way to have a fully auto, really, is get an AR-15 and put a light pulling, clean breaking trigger on it. The action will still cycle as fast as the fully auto version, so pulling the trigger quickly will achieve the same effect.

Or in the pre-ban AR-15 receivers, it's really just the one pin that stops the selector from going to full auto... And that pin doesn't serve any other purpose... I would never condone such illegal activity though.
 
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