cant start engine after winter & timing change changin

[FinalImpact]

How are you "drying the plugs"???

Have you manually dribbled a cap full of fuel into each throttle body opening???
- note: You must remove air box lid.

Use Fresh Newer fuel if that in the tank is suspect of being bad...
If all is well it will blubber to life running rich and then die. Repeat if it fires off. This is simple. Do it!


EDIT..... XXXXXXXX

JUST Listened to video... It sounds different but its very hard to draw a conclusion.

Does the starter labor when cranking?

I could be wrong here but it does not sound like that engine has compression...

Remove 1 spark plug leaving the plug hole open.
Move the free coil wire away from your hand.

Cover the OPEN spark plug access hole with your hand and crank the starter over... It should blow your hand off. Not in damaging way, but it will/should push air out. Does it?

Make a video of this!

Any Chance this engine was out of time and you hit the starter button and bent all the valves? Not wanting to jump to conclusions...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It does sound like it spins over quickly. (For me, its hard to tell as mine fires up within a second so I've never spun one over that long.)

And you said the fuel pump does prime on a cold (or after while) start???

A compression tester would reveal a bunch, a leak down tester, MUCH more, IE bent exhaust valves specifically, intakes, etc..

With the leak-down tester, you set a cylinder on TDC compression stoke, pull the spark plug and insert the tool. The engine has to be
locked up (so it WILL NOT TURN OVER). 90-100 PSI is put into the cylinder (hooked up to a compressor. If a valve is leaking, IE -intake,you'll hear
it (air) come out from the throttle for that cylinder. It will also give you a good idea of the health of the internals of the engine(rings, cylinders, valves, head gasket, etc) .

This is the tester I use. Not terribly expensive and seems well made if you can't borrow one):
https://www.otctools.com/products/cylinder-leakage-tester-kit


Just curious why you keep using the kill the switch repeatedly? Just an FYI, but it is a known issue to fail and repeated use of it hastens its failure.
Yours IS WORKING as it does crank over, but IME, don't use that red kill switch unless you really need to...

 

[MichaelFZ6]

Guys I see that all of you are thinking about the compression. I think its ok. When I was dissasembling engine for the first time to measure valve clearences and order new parts I was turning crank by hand. It was really hard to turn at some points (close to TDC) so I asked why is that. Brother said that I am building compression by hand. Now I have to apply the same force to the lever to rotate crank.

Also why would it lose it? Changing time chain wont mess with it.

>How are you "drying the plugs"???
by putting the ignition part under fire for ~30 seconds.

>Have you manually dribbled a cap full of fuel into each throttle body opening???
no, we might try it the other time.

>Does the starter labor when cranking?
As I remember it sounds exactly like it used to a year ago.

>And you said the fuel pump does prime on a cold (or after while) start???
As I turn the red button the puel pump start uploading the fuel. Not always, but anyway it works just as it was last year.

>Just curious why you keep using the kill the switch repeatedly?
No idea I think that fuel pump can get the signal to check the fuel.

>Any Chance this engine was out of time and you hit the starter button and bent all the valves? Not wanting to jump to conclusions...
No. When we tried to reassemble cams I tried to get out CCT and chain slide from front side only. The result was to mess the marks completely so turning the crank was not possible at some point (piston hit valves). So we dissasemble all the cams and fixed marks align.

In conclusion I'm going to read about fuel system and try to add fuel by air intake.

 

[Motogiro]

Guys I see that all of you are thinking about the compression. I think its ok. When I was dissasembling engine for the first time to measure valve clearences and order new parts I was turning crank by hand. It was really hard to turn at some points (close to TDC) so I asked why is that. Brother said that I am building compression by hand. Now I have to apply the same force to the lever to rotate crank.

Also why would it lose it? Changing time chain wont mess with it.

>How are you "drying the plugs"???
by putting the ignition part under fire for ~30 seconds.

>Have you manually dribbled a cap full of fuel into each throttle body opening???
no, we might try it the other time.

>Does the starter labor when cranking?
As I remember it sounds exactly like it used to a year ago.

>And you said the fuel pump does prime on a cold (or after while) start???
As I turn the red button the puel pump start uploading the fuel. Not always, but anyway it works just as it was last year.

>Just curious why you keep using the kill the switch repeatedly?
No idea I think that fuel pump can get the signal to check the fuel.

>Any Chance this engine was out of time and you hit the starter button and bent all the valves? Not wanting to jump to conclusions...
No. When we tried to reassemble cams I tried to get out CCT and chain slide from front side only. The result was to mess the marks completely so turning the crank was not possible at some point (piston hit valves). So we dissasemble all the cams and fixed marks align.

In conclusion I'm going to read about fuel system and try to add fuel by air intake.

If at any point the cam assemblies were out of sync with the crankshaft and the crankshaft was rotated, the pistons may have touched the valve heads causing them to bend. When this happens the valve will not seat and seal, you will not have proper compression and the engine will have trouble burning the fuel. If this is the case the engine head will have to be removed to repair the bent valves. This why posters are advising you to check compression or do a leak down test.
Try the fuel start at the throttle bodies and if it doesn't start do a compression test.

 

[MichaelFZ6]

Ok guys some update, here is the video https://youtu.be/M0bMMuMW2WU I added about a teaspoon of fuel into each air "thing" in the airbox. Also checked fuel pump pressure, it's 2.4 bar.

So I'll try to measure the compression and ask you to think a little forward what we will do when the compression is good.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ok guys some update, here is the video https://youtu.be/M0bMMuMW2WU I added about a teaspoon of fuel into each air "thing" in the airbox. Also checked fuel pump pressure, it's 2.4 bar.

So I'll try to measure the compression and ask you to think a little forward what we will do when the compression is good.

How did you do this with the fuel tank on? If you put in a little bit of fuel, put everything back together, it evaporated...

Have at least 1/3 tank full of fuel.

Brace the tank up, remove the air box and filter.

Now spritz a little bit of fuel down each THROTTLE BODY.

Crank over immediately....


Video record (if you have another body to help) what happens.
If it kicks and runs for a second or two, you now know you have a fuel delivery problem..

 

[MichaelFZ6]

>How did you do this with the fuel tank on? If you put in a little bit of fuel, put everything back together, it evaporated...
exactly like that. airbox isnt assembled during the video. I can only try to spit more fuel there.

 

[FinalImpact]

A table spoon is not going to evaporate to quickly on a cold engine.

I would suggest holding the throttle open 50 - 75%.

The added issue here is not knowing if the plugs are actually firing.

Did you heat all four plugs to 300°F?? If there is raw fuel in the insulator body it will burn off and the plugs will literally smoke for 5"... Use a propane torch or buy new plugs.

Did you ever hold your hand over the open plug hole? Y/N!!

And you are sure the order is correct? From the left side (shifter side) is plug #1...
#2 and 3 can be swapped with little impact. 1 and 2 can not nor can 3 and 4.

 

[MichaelFZ6]

ok guys some update
my friend with THE SAME PROBLEM got his bike started

1. I uploaded a misaligned photos of cams here.
2. You said that I must fix that, I did. My friend said that he had such misalign. But because it did not help in my case, I advised him not to fix them.
3. Yesterday he out of desperation aligned them (moved one on 1 teeth)
4. Replaced the starter because he had fried his old one during the starting experiments (not a new one starter, used from another fz)
5. tried to start bike with full throttle, it made better noise
6. waited a minute and started it.
-----------------------
also I feel like my posts are deleted. I wrote a response to FinalImpact's post in the morning but there is none now


>Did you ever hold your hand over the open plug hole? Y/N!!
Still no, might do it.

>And you are sure the order is correct?
yeah 1-2-3-4 from the clutch side to the throttle side

 

[Motogiro]

At this point, I am confused....

Your bike must have the proper mechanical and electrical timing, compression and fuel to fire. When asked to check firing order there are 2 ignition coils. One coil fires number 1 and number 4 cylinder. The other coil fires number 2 and number 3 cylinder. Check that this is the case with your coils with regard to timing.Once this is confirmed and you know that you have spark check that you have proper compression. Good Luck!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

From a parts fisch, are your coils and WIRES plugged in EXACTLY as shown below??

 

[FinalImpact]

Will the fuel you have in the tank run another engine?

Sorry but this isn't rocket science. It is a process of replacing Unknown Variables with proven facts. I KNOW THIS IS TRUE, as it works... etc...

1) Compression Y/N
2) Spark Y/N... new plugs are best if those have been wet.
3) Fuel or even starting fluid... Not my first choice but it's volatile and will solve for a variable...

Last year checked on a friend's FZ. It wouldnt start. Had a fuel controller on it. Verified spark across a 0.060" gap.
It was running that week so we knew it had compression.
Added fuel to each TB and it fired off.
Bypassed F/I from controller back to OEM ecu. Pressed start button. It starts and runs.
DEBUG fuel controller. It was powered but wasn't getting enough current through a bad connection.


20 minutes to investigatee and Replace some variables with facts, prove the facts, solve the mystery... It wasn't getting fuel so I gave it fuel...

This is not to discredit anyone's efforts... more to say that there is a method to the madness and doing the suggested steps as written can be helpful.

Prove what you can prove with the resources available.
Good luck!

 

[MichaelFZ6]

good news everyone! we got it started!
bad news - we still have no clue what was wrong.

so yesterday I brought a cold start liquid, we connected battery charger to battery inside the bike to have enough charge and started experimenting.
by trial and error method we found out that the bike does a better noise when the throttle is about 80% open during cranking. So when the bike starts I had to stop pressing "start engine" button and quickly lower the RPM to about 3-4k. I took about 30 tries...

Interesting thing. It seems to me that the bike is working badly idle. Once I got it started, working for about 20 seconds on 4k rpm and decided that its finished and put off the throttle. The bike immediatly died. Another time was after the bike worked for 20 minutes, I changed oil and filter, got it work for another 10 mins and tried to start with no throttle. Its cranking, making good noises but cant start. I slightly twist the throttle - and it starts readily. So it's like something is wrong with idle rpm? Nobody touched that bolt on the left side of the bike... I will check it next time.

I and my friend are 146% sure that it was not possible to start the engine without throttle manipulations.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

How old is the fuel in it??

 

[MichaelFZ6]

The fuel was about 2 week old.

Also started it today and it started very well, without throttle and after about 1/2 second of cranking.

 

[FinalImpact]

Engines that have been flooded behave that way.

It's why I stated dry the plugs with propane torch, heat them until they smoke, and after adding tsp of fuel hold the throttle open to 50% or more....

That's not to say you shouldn't go into diagnostics and test the TPS....
Q? Did you follow the GSM and remove the Throttle Bodies?

 

[MichaelFZ6]

>Engines that have been flooded behave that way.
Looks like it!

>It's why I stated dry the plugs with propane torch, heat them until they smoke, and after adding tsp of fuel hold the throttle open to 50% or more....
we dont have propane just usual gas in the kitchen

>That's not to say you shouldn't go into diagnostics and test the TPS....
I tested it, from 18 to 101


>Q? Did you follow the GSM and remove the Throttle Bodies?
No

 

[Motogiro]

I agree.. Do the TPS test. It sounds like it's leaning out the mixture because of a few different possibilities. Run fuel injector cleaner. Test fuel pressure.

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So how is it running once it started? Does it stay running?

Back to normal, needs throttle, ?

 

[MichaelFZ6]

>I agree.. Do the TPS test. It sounds like it's leaning out the mixture because of a few different possibilities.
Is TPS a Throttle Position Sensor? I tested it by diagnostic menu and got results: 18 in closed throttle state, 101 in full open.

>Run fuel injector cleaner.
Might do it.

>Test fuel pressure.
Tested, its 2.4 bar.

>So how is it running once it started? Does it stay running?
Is running fine, just like last year. I let it run until the fan started to cool down the engine.
>Back to normal, needs throttle, ?
Everything is good, as it was last year. No throttle, just a press on a start button.