Buell: #1 handling bike. Yep.

[Wavex]

here it is :rockon:

View attachment 21565

 

[Motogiro]

here it is :rockon:

View attachment 21565

I'll assume I'll get to see it this Saturday? I've always been fascinated by the Buells. I've seen some pretty early versions in SD area and it's pretty exciting to watch their development. A lot more people are taking them seriously now that Eslik(sp?) has won some races.
Hopefully I'll be googling yours this Sat.

Cliff

 

[Wavex]

Oh yeah, it'll be there





Was just browsing the Buell forum and I can now say that the XB is a fine touring bike... check these out!

I cant imagine the wheelie potential right there ^ !!!

 

[Motogiro]

When your fueling that thing does it behave any differently with regard to how fast yo can put gas in, since it goes into the frame? I would also imagine that there is less center of gravity change with different amounts of gas because most bikes are physically carrying the gas at a higher point on the bike.

Cliff

 

[afpreppie04]

I always wondered if you could feel it sloshing around as you rode. And if there were problems with fuel leaking out after wrecks.

 

[Wavex]

When your fueling that thing does it behave any differently with regard to how fast yo can put gas in, since it goes into the frame? I would also imagine that there is less center of gravity change with different amounts of gas because most bikes are physically carrying the gas at a higher point on the bike.

Cliff

No difference in fueling at all. CoG is indeed way lower with everything on the bike designed with that purpose in mind. (Scg = center of gravity -low-)

I always wondered if you could feel it sloshing around as you rode. And if there were problems with fuel leaking out after wrecks.

I can't feel anything and I never heard anyone who mentioned it If you think about it, most crashes will involve tank damage before frame damage... and I believe the frame would be stronger against a leak compared to a regular tank... never heard/read issues about that either (but if you crash that hard, who the hell cares about the leak on your tank/frame!!! lol).

 

[afpreppie04]

True, I guess as long as Suzuki doesn't start the fuel in frame thing on the GSXRs we'll be ok

 

[Hellgate]

Just drink the Buellaide in small amounts...

I'm not sold on the low CG thing. Sure the fuel is in the frame and somewhat lower than a standard tank, it is also WIDER than as standard layout. Kinda the same difference. And while the fuel in the frame is a "big" advantage, Buell never mentions the battery that sits under the passanger seat....hummm. The mass centeralization with the muffer under the bike is kinda silly too. A standard good quality exhaust, think R6, R1, GSXR, etc is made of stainless steel and or Ti. The Buell muffler is mild steel, weights a ton and WILL rust. Soooo if you are trying to lower the total cg, simply hang a 20 lbs muffler at the lowest point of the bike and the total weight of the bike will move lower, yes my stock muffler weighs 19.9 lbs. A standard good quality muffler is about 10lbs.

I think what makes the Buells handel so well is the ulta stiff frame and swing arm. The geometry is super quick too. The rake on the 1125 is about 21 degrees! Most sport bikes are 23 or so.

Don't get me wrong, I like Buells and they a very fun to ride and unique, but you have to take the whole thing with a grain of salt, just like any bike.

 

[Wavex]

This is going to sound defensive, but it's just my comments... and I could use a break at work right now lol

Just drink the Buellaide in small amounts...

I'm not sold on the low CG thing. Sure the fuel is in the frame and somewhat lower than a standard tank, it is also WIDER than as standard layout. Kinda the same difference. And while the fuel in the frame is a "big" advantage, Buell never mentions the battery that sits under the passanger seat....hummm.

Fuel in the frame makes the CoG lower compared to fuel in the tank. The fact that it is wider has no impact on the fact that it is lower. So I am not sure what your point is. Also, while the fuel is physically located a bit wider on the bike compared to a regular tank, it is still a symmetrical configuration, so it has no bearing on the CoG.
About the battery comment, I am not sure what your point is. Yes the battery is under the seat... like in most bikes... what's the problem with that?

The mass centeralization with the muffer under the bike is kinda silly too. A standard good quality exhaust, think R6, R1, GSXR, etc is made of stainless steel and or Ti. The Buell muffler is mild steel, weights a ton and WILL rust. Soooo if you are trying to lower the total cg, simply hang a 20 lbs muffler at the lowest point of the bike and the total weight of the bike will move lower, yes my stock muffler weighs 19.9 lbs. A standard good quality muffler is about 10lbs.

Muffler under bike is silly? Is that really you Pete? I think everybody agrees that the muffler under bike config is the best in terms of weight centralization and lower CoG, which translates into better handling. The fact that there are sound and emissions requirements that forced Buell to make a big/heavy muffler has nothing to do with the fact that the "muffler under bike" design is a great idea (there is a reason why all the Jap manufacturers are doing it too now!).
I got an aftermarket muffler for $300 shipped and saved 10lbs. So now I have a light muffler in the best location for it.

I think what makes the Buells handel so well is the ulta stiff frame and swing arm. The geometry is super quick too. The rake on the 1125 is about 21 degrees! Most sport bikes are 23 or so.

Don't get me wrong, I like Buells and they a very fun to ride and unique, but you have to take the whole thing with a grain of salt, just like any bike.

Take what "whole thing" with a grain of salt? If you read all the articles I posted in here they all state the same thing: Buells are not for everyone, they have their quirks and peculiarities and have a very unique non-conforming approach to motorcycle design, but the point is that it works great for the streets and makes for very fun bikes... that's all they're saying... they're not the fastest, they're not the smoothest, they're not the lightest, they're not the most reliable, they're not the most precise handling bikes (as in on the track @ high speeds)...etc...etc..., they're just super fun to throw around a twisty road or around town, or even on mild touring adventures... that's all that is said, and of course I believe most of these articles are spot on :cheer:

OK, well now that I spend 20 minutes of my work time on this... back to it!

 

[Wavex]

This is another way to state it (you'd think the panel of Judges would know what they're talking about... and they're from the UK!!! if it was a US panel we could think they were pushed to choose Buell...):

 

[afpreppie04]

Have you guys tested the 1125 vs the 12? I know it makes 40ish more hp, but at much higher rpms. Does it feel more 600y than the 12?

 

[Wavex]

The 1125 uses a liquid cooled rotax v-twin engine which is amazing... I test rode one of them last year and other than the heat issues (resolved now), I thought the bike was amazing. Ergos are not too aggressive for a SS, the engine felt very strong and pulled from anywhere no matter what rpm/gear you're in... It feels more like an liter SS bike to me in that it pulls from way low (600cc typically don't have much down low), which really has not much to compare to the XB12 series... different ergos, different engine...

Personally, I'd love to have an 1125 trackbike, but for the streets/in town it is less than optimal imo.

 

[afpreppie04]

If only it had the good looks of the 12r...the 1125 has a funny face imo :tard:

 

[Hellgate]

This is going to sound defensive, but it's just my comments... and I could use a break at work right now lol

Fuel in the frame makes the CoG lower compared to fuel in the tank. The fact that it is wider has no impact on the fact that it is lower. So I am not sure what your point is. Also, while the fuel is physically located a bit wider on the bike compared to a regular tank, it is still a symmetrical configuration, so it has no bearing on the CoG.
About the battery comment, I am not sure what your point is. Yes the battery is under the seat... like in most bikes... what's the problem with that?

Muffler under bike is silly? Is that really you Pete? I think everybody agrees that the muffler under bike config is the best in terms of weight centralization and lower CoG, which translates into better handling. The fact that there are sound and emissions requirements that forced Buell to make a big/heavy muffler has nothing to do with the fact that the "muffler under bike" design is a great idea (there is a reason why all the Jap manufacturers are doing it too now!).
I got an aftermarket muffler for $300 shipped and saved 10lbs. So now I have a light muffler in the best location for it.


Take what "whole thing" with a grain of salt? If you read all the articles I posted in here they all state the same thing: Buells are not for everyone, they have their quirks and peculiarities and have a very unique non-conforming approach to motorcycle design, but the point is that it works great for the streets and makes for very fun bikes... that's all they're saying... they're not the fastest, they're not the smoothest, they're not the lightest, they're not the most reliable, they're not the most precise handling bikes (as in on the track @ high speeds)...etc...etc..., they're just super fun to throw around a twisty road or around town, or even on mild touring adventures... that's all that is said, and of course I believe most of these articles are spot on :cheer:

OK, well now that I spend 20 minutes of my work time on this... back to it!

David, David, David...you sound just like the dudes on Bad Web, step away from the Buellaide!

Okay, one at a a time.

1) Fuel in frame. It is wider than a standard gas tank, this increase the polar moment of the bike. Buell looks at CG from the side of the bike, it need to be looked at from a 360 sphere, and then consider mass centeralization. Which leads me to...

2) Battery in under the passenger seat. This is about as far from the center of mass as you could put a very heavy object. Below the riders saddle down low is a much better place, but wait, with the large mass of the frame there is no room, hence the passenger seat.

3) A giant, mild steel muffler is silly. I'm sorry but on a $12,500 superbike there is no place for a 20lbs muffler. It should be stainless steel or better Ti. If it is going to weight 5% of the bike you have to put it low in order to keep the cg down. If it was a better material you could put if where ever you wished. Yes I too spent $400.00 in my case and bought a 5 lbs muffler.

All I am saying is that if Buell is going to stand up on a soapbox and scream to the world they are better, then the buyer should look at the whole package objectively because there are many holes in their purity.

Oh and it they really are so much better why do 1125R race with 600s? If it is so much better should they not be only in Superbike????

I love riding my Buell, it is very fun but....

<<<<< 1125R only topic >>>>>

And the frame...it handles great but I'll be damned if we can make it run correctly. It traps too much heat and boils the gas in the fuel lines. It works great on the track but struggles around town. I spent the last 3 days fiddling with the AFV tables, spark maps and fuel maps, no luck. Right now the bike is BACK AT THE DEALER, and I've asked them to make cruising throttle correct; eg, not surge and miss at neutral throttle. The lead Buell mechanic says he doesn't think he can but he'll try. He was told by the factory that owners need to ride them hard, give it a handful, right... If this doesn't work I'm seriously looking at something else; FZ1, R1, dunno. I gave them 4 weeks to square this away, if they can't then I'll file a lemon law complaint with the state.

This bike has only 1800 miles on it since February. It should have 4 to 5 thousand.

 

[afpreppie04]

Hmm so both of you Buellers seem to think the 1125 isn't that great for the streets. Perhaps Buell cheaped out and put a heavy exhaust down there so they could further lower the CG for marketing purposes, since replacing it with a lightweight unit would effectively raise the CG. In a racing environment couldn't you simply remove the battery? You wouldn't be able to use the starter of course, but its not exactly stop and go out on the track.

 

[urbanj]

David, David, David...you sound just like the dudes on Bad Web, step away from the Buellaide!

Okay, one at a a time.

1) Fuel in frame. It is wider than a standard gas tank, this increase the polar moment of the bike. Buell looks at CG from the side of the bike, it need to be looked at from a 360 sphere, and then consider mass centeralization. Which leads me to...

2) Battery in under the passenger seat. This is about as far from the center of mass as you could put a very heavy object. Below the riders saddle down low is a much better place, but wait, with the large mass of the frame there is no room, hence the passenger seat.

3) A giant, mild steel muffler is silly. I'm sorry but on a $12,500 superbike there is no place for a 20lbs muffler. It should be stainless steel or better Ti. If it is going to weight 5% of the bike you have to put it low in order to keep the cg down. If it was a better material you could put if where ever you wished. Yes I too spent $400.00 in my case and bought a 5 lbs muffler.

All I am saying is that if Buell is going to stand up on a soapbox and scream to the world they are better, then the buyer should look at the whole package objectively because there are many holes in their purity.

Oh and it they really are so much better why do 1125R race with 600s? If it is so much better should they not be only in Superbike????

I love riding my Buell, it is very fun but....

<<<<< 1125R only topic >>>>>

And the frame...it handles great but I'll be damned if we can make it run correctly. It traps too much heat and boils the gas in the fuel lines. It works great on the track but struggles around town. I spent the last 3 days fiddling with the AFV tables, spark maps and fuel maps, no luck. Right now the bike is BACK AT THE DEALER, and I've asked them to make cruising throttle correct; eg, not surge and miss at neutral throttle. The lead Buell mechanic says he doesn't think he can but he'll try. He was told by the factory that owners need to ride them hard, give it a handful, right... If this doesn't work I'm seriously looking at something else; FZ1, R1, dunno. I gave them 4 weeks to square this away, if they can't then I'll file a lemon law complaint with the state.

This bike has only 1800 miles on it since February. It should have 4 to 5 thousand.

I'm sorry to hear this. Not for me, but you. You were super stoked about this bike.

Me, I don't care for Buell so it don't matter. I see it like taking a plain jane Mustang, modifying it from the factory and then it's all of a sudden awesome. To me, it's still a run of the mill, lower tech than most, Mustang. What ever happened to the Cobra R Ford made

 

[Wavex]

David, David, David...you sound just like the dudes on Bad Web, step away from the Buellaide!

Okay, one at a a time.

1) Fuel in frame. It is wider than a standard gas tank, this increase the polar moment of the bike. Buell looks at CG from the side of the bike, it need to be looked at from a 360 sphere, and then consider mass centeralization. Which leads me to...

2) Battery in under the passenger seat. This is about as far from the center of mass as you could put a very heavy object. Below the riders saddle down low is a much better place, but wait, with the large mass of the frame there is no room, hence the passenger seat.

3) A giant, mild steel muffler is silly. I'm sorry but on a $12,500 superbike there is no place for a 20lbs muffler. It should be stainless steel or better Ti. If it is going to weight 5% of the bike you have to put it low in order to keep the cg down. If it was a better material you could put if where ever you wished. Yes I too spent $400.00 in my case and bought a 5 lbs muffler.

All I am saying is that if Buell is going to stand up on a soapbox and scream to the world they are better, then the buyer should look at the whole package objectively because there are many holes in their purity.

Oh and it they really are so much better why do 1125R race with 600s? If it is so much better should they not be only in Superbike????

I love riding my Buell, it is very fun but....

<<<<< 1125R only topic >>>>>

And the frame...it handles great but I'll be damned if we can make it run correctly. It traps too much heat and boils the gas in the fuel lines. It works great on the track but struggles around town. I spent the last 3 days fiddling with the AFV tables, spark maps and fuel maps, no luck. Right now the bike is BACK AT THE DEALER, and I've asked them to make cruising throttle correct; eg, not surge and miss at neutral throttle. The lead Buell mechanic says he doesn't think he can but he'll try. He was told by the factory that owners need to ride them hard, give it a handful, right... If this doesn't work I'm seriously looking at something else; FZ1, R1, dunno. I gave them 4 weeks to square this away, if they can't then I'll file a lemon law complaint with the state.

This bike has only 1800 miles on it since February. It should have 4 to 5 thousand.

:rof: Pete, Pete, Pete... You need to let go of the "Buellaide" comment bro, because I have yet to see a bike forum where the owners aren't -in general- happy/proud of their bikes...

To make sure: I am talking about the XB12 in here, specifically the Scg (since I thought you had brought that up, stating you were "not convinced"):

I have no idea why you're trying to nitpick at Buell's attempt to lower the CoG as much as possible. No-one said they have the perfect design solutions for every problem that exists out there... they're only saying that they designed the bike (especially the Scg model) with "low CoG" in mind. It is obvious that they did that, but if you think they did not... everybody is entitled to their own opinions I guess

About the battery... there are trade-offs in all designs (I am sure you are aware of that), and they had to make decisions... it so happens that the battery is below my ass... (just like on my GSX-R). You are correct, the CoG would be lower if they had put the battery where the engine is lol

I agree that a giant steel muffler is silly (it is different than saying, an under-belly muffler is silly, which is what you originally wrote).... which is why it's very easy to swap it (if you don't care about the sound/emission laws). Look at any new bike out there right now... they ALL have HUGE/heavy mufflers...

"All I am saying is that if Buell is going to stand up on a soapbox and scream to the world they are better"... who at Buell said that? No-one to my knowledge said the Buells are better bikes than others... at least I have never read or seen that.
Did you read the articles I posted in here? None of them are from Buell... all of them are from users or professional moto journalists/racers/enthousiasts, so again, wth?

Also, let me clarify: Nowhere in this thread before this last page is the 1125R mentioned... I never saw the 1125R win any bike comparison test for that matter lol... and I am sorry you changed your mind about it from "awesome" to "suck".... but if you had read anything in this thread you would know it is about the XB12 :thumbup:

 

[Wavex]

Hmm so both of you Buellers seem to think the 1125 isn't that great for the streets. Perhaps Buell cheaped out and put a heavy exhaust down there so they could further lower the CG for marketing purposes, since replacing it with a lightweight unit would effectively raise the CG. In a racing environment couldn't you simply remove the battery? You wouldn't be able to use the starter of course, but its not exactly stop and go out on the track.

I think Pete was talking about the 1125R and I was talking about the XB12... so there may be a discrepancy here.

The Cg model of the XB12S has lowered suspension, lower seat, muffler under engine (and no, they did not increase weight on purpose.... the muffler is big to keep the sound and emissions under control... and it also includes a back-pressure control valve), shorter wheel base, slightly different rake etc etc... all in an effort to lower the CoG to make the bike more flickable... it works

About the battery, I have no idea why this was brought up lol, but again, the XB12 was designed for the street, so the bat. is perfectly fine where it is. It may be a problem on the 1125 I have no idea.

 

[Wavex]

I'm sorry to hear this. Not for me, but you. You were super stoked about this bike.

Me, I don't care for Buell so it don't matter. I see it like taking a plain jane Mustang, modifying it from the factory and then it's all of a sudden awesome. To me, it's still a run of the mill, lower tech than most, Mustang. What ever happened to the Cobra R Ford made

"Modifying a plain jane Mustang to make it awesome". I fail to see the link with the XB12 or even the 1125R.. could you extrapolate? What did Buell modify to get to the XB12S or 1125R?
"Lower tech than most"? What do you mean?

 

[afpreppie04]

I think I was just unclear in that post. The 1125 comment was just based on your saying it is less than optimal for street riding and Hellgate's mechanic saying they were designed to be ridden hard, ie track. I know you have the Scg one for even lower than usual CG, and I know the muffler has certain sound and emissions requirements (and the backpressure valve). My thinking might be skewed here but I think on a $10k bike they could make a lighter muffler; even with all the requirements they could have made it from a lighter material, but the steel does serve to make the CG even lower having the extra weight inches from the ground. Not sure how much real world difference the 10 extra pounds would be, but in my mind I can see the budget guys and marketing guys both getting in on that deal.