Battery leads reversed, what now?

[artibramuir]

Posting from the side of the road.

I was out riding with a friend on a near-dead battery and stalled. I'd been push starting while waiting for my new battery to come in, but this time the battery was too dead to push start, so I had him come jump me. He'd never jumped from his bike before, and accidentally reversed the polarity on the battery terminals.

There were sparks and smoke, and since then I haven't been able to even get the clock to come up on the display. What kind of damage is done? After trying to charge it a few more minutes I'll be getting a tow if nothing happens, but what next step should I do?

Thanks guys.

 

[Carlos840]

I think number one thing should be to check the fuses under the right side pod (side cover)

I once accidentally shorted a lead to the frame, it sparked, and everything died, it was just a dead fuse, and everything worked fine after changing it.

 

[FinalImpact]

A completely dead battery doesn't put up much of a fight against polarity reversal. As such, the Regulator Rectifier is going to take the brunt of the impact. If I had to guess, I hope your issues are isolated to the main fuse at the battery. If not, the ECU and battery back up are the next fuses inline they **may** step up and shunt some of that energy to ground.

What does that mean; ECU hopefully has a protection device to short reversed polarity to ground and protect itself. Should it perform like this it will likely result in blowing the fuse that powers it. Check ALL Fuses and hopefully those blown can be replaced and all is well. Start at the main fuse at the battery = 30Amp...

Once running and over the next couple of rides, it would be wise to monitor the output from the charging system. Place a meter across the battery OR the RED & BLACK leads at the RR and verify 13.85 ~ 14.5Vdc when above 2500 RPM.
Also be warned that the RR taking a hit like that, may be damaged. - signs would be; leakage current draining the battery, low output when >2500 RPM, and no output...


Take a look at this posts in this thread for charging issues... CHARGING SYSTEM AND BATTERIES Also, where did the smoke come from? Is it an AGM sealed battery or Lead acid with caps? It may have been from the battery. Use caution with that battery if those were high quality jumper leads and car battery with lots of current.

Good luck!

 

[artibramuir]

Checked out the fuses. All the ones on the side were fine, as was the 30 amp on the battery. 25 amp on the battery was blown. Replaced it and the clock came on! Hooked it up to my friend's bike (correctly), it turns over but does not start. Error 1 displays. I read that might be insufficient charge, so now I'm letting it (hopefully) charge a bit before I try again.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

25 amp on the battery was blown. Replaced it and the clock came on! Hooked it up to my friend's bike (correctly), it turns over but does not start. Error 1 displays. I read that might be insufficient charge, so now I'm letting it (hopefully) charge a bit before I try again.

Well, that's a good sign.

When it "turns over", is it cranking at your normal spin rate or somewhat slower?

If the tank is up, or you have an SAE connector, you can jump a NON running car battery direct to your bikes battery.

The old battery probably won't take or hold a charge from your description.

Jumped, to a good battery, it should crank up..

Just a side note, my battery is going out (still starts W/O issue) but the cranking voltage drops to about 9 volts (way lower than normal), dash goes out momentarily while cranking(another sign of a failing battery), but the bike spins over quickly.

I'd put $ on the cranking voltage on your bike dropping way below 9 volts, thus the error code. I haven't popped any codes either.

 

[artibramuir]

Yes, it was turning over a bit slower than usual. I let it charge another 10 minutes and it started right up! Out of caution I let it idle for another 10 minutes or so while I cleaned up the improvised work area. Then, just as I finished putting on my helmet, it died again.

Thankfully it died near an O'Reilly's. They didn't have a battery in stock that would fit, but they put my battery on the tester / charger anyway. After an hour or so charging, the tester came back that the battery was still good and holding full charge. Reinstalled it on the bike, and it started faster than I've ever heard it start!

I'm starting to wonder if the problem I started with wasn't a bad battery, but a bad stator or RR. In the meantime, I have an (apparently) functional bike again. Thanks [MENTION=6338]TownsendsFJR1300[/MENTION], [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION], and [MENTION=24196]Carlos840[/MENTION] for being there for me today, it made me feel slightly less stranded.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Depending on your idle speed, your either breaking even @ charging, possibly loosing(depending on accessories). Once you hit about 2,000 RPM's, your charging halfways decent. Letting it idle probably didn't help any...

Putting a voltmeter on the battery terminals while running will verify if its charging or not...

With a very thin, long, insulated probe, you can reach the + terminal on the battery (with the tank still DOWN). You do have to move the red plastic cover aside...

While at O-Reillys, did they do a LOAD TEST on the battery?

 

[artibramuir]

I'm not sure if they did a load test. I have a + terminal extender, so it's pretty easy to stick a voltmeter on positive. I had a little more trouble finding a good ground with the voltmeter probe, so my readings might have been a little low. I did the test fast and didn't write anything down, but this is my best recollection:

12v--not running, bike off
11v--not running, bike on
12v--idle
12.5v--4k
13.5v--6k

Should I be worried?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm not sure if they did a load test. I have a + terminal extender, so it's pretty easy to stick a voltmeter on positive. I had a little more trouble finding a good ground with the voltmeter probe, so my readings might have been a little low. I did the test fast and didn't write anything down, but this is my best recollection:

12v--not running, bike off
11v--not running, bike on
12v--idle
12.5v--4k
13.5v--6k

Should I be worried?

12.8 volts is fully charged, battery sitting, bike off, no load.

12.5 volts @ 4 K its loosing charge, your just running the battery down/running on the battery. It should be close to 14 volts

I looked for a picture(couldn't find one), but from the left side of the bike, you can access the voltage regulator and the two main wires to check the charging system. That will be the most accurate way to check the system overall. A voltage probe to those wire will show what the bikes charging at.

I know with my failing battery, it will show a max charge of about 13.8, BUT at the VR, 14.2 volts. The battery just isn't accepting the charge.. You MAY be having the same issue.

Randy or Cliff will chime in. Randy has lots of pic's.

[MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION] [MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION]

 

[Motogiro]

FinalImpact has done a great job of building/documenting on one post much of the info you'll need to check your charging system.

Read the stator test and procedure. If your stator passes the resistance test you may have some damaged diodes in the Regulator/Rectifier and this would result in poor output, hence the lower voltages than expected.
Sorry! Forgot the link: ------> http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579412
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Testing the Stator:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stator coil resistance (Note: unplug Stator at RR
0.22–0.34 Ω at 20°C (68°F)

 

[FinalImpact]

12.8 volts is fully charged, battery sitting, bike off, no load.

12.5 volts @ 4 K its loosing charge, your just running the battery down/running on the battery. It should be close to 14 volts

I looked for a picture(couldn't find one), but from the left side of the bike, you can access the voltage regulator and the two main wires to check the charging system. That will be the most accurate way to check the system overall. A voltage probe to those wire will show what the bikes charging at.

I know with my failing battery, it will show a max charge of about 13.8, BUT at the VR, 14.2 volts. The battery just isn't accepting the charge.. You MAY be having the same issue.

Randy or Cliff will chime in. Randy has lots of pic's.

[MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION] [MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION]

Just keep in mind that a GOOD but low charge battery will draw MORE CURRENT and show a lower voltage. A fully charged Good battery will be in float mode and show a high "top off" like voltage which could be 14 to 14.5Vdc.

So, on an unknown battery state - its not a conclusive argument to say a charging system is busted just because it only shows 13.2vdc (example)... if you really want to know you need to measure current (Amps), which take more expansive meters.

Another place to measure from w/out lifting the tank!
Battery Voltage can be checked from the RR w/the seat off:
Shown is Cold start, @ 1500 RPM, 14.4vdc

 

[Motogiro]

Just keep in mind that a GOOD but low charge battery will draw MORE CURRENT and show a lower voltage. A fully charged Good battery will be in float mode and show a high "top off" like voltage which could be 14 to 14.5Vdc.

So, on an unknown battery state - its not a conclusive argument to say a charging system is busted just because it only shows 13.2vdc (example)... if you really want to know you need to measure current (Amps), which take more expansive meters.

Another place to measure from w/out lifting the tank!
Battery Voltage can be checked from the RR w/the seat off:
Shown is Cold start, @ 1500 RPM, 14.4vdc

Exactly correct! ^^^^

If the battery needs a charge or is sulphated it will require more current which loads the charging system showing lower voltage. Your battery should be completely charged and then load tested. If it passes load test and is fully charged, then go to other tests.

 

[artibramuir]

I haven't had a chance to work on the bike since I last posted, but I have a small update nevertheless.

When I got on to ride to work this morning, it wouldn't start. Not enough juice. Last night O'Reilly's said they'd brought it to full charge, and it started faster than I'd ever heard. I'd be surprised if it really got full in an hour, but it was definitely not on the verge of not starting--there was plenty of power left for a few good cranks at least.

This makes me think there's something on it that's draining power even when the bike is off. I haven't owned it for long, but I haven't seen any power accessories on it. That said, the wiring is a bit of a bird's nest. Is there a common modification or error that could make it run through power that fast?

 

[FinalImpact]

In the same link I posted above is another post on that topic... # 5

LEAKAGE CURRENT KILLING YOUR BATTERY??


A quick summary - those reversed leads may have taken a toll on the RR. The RR is composed of diodes. Diodes subject to electrical shock (reversed polarity) can either short or leak or open.

If shorted, your battery would likely be dead. But if leaking, this supports the lower output and draining the battery while off. THAT SAID, some testing needs to be done to determine which component is at fault as it MAY NOT BE THE RR! But it is the most likely candidate....

The RR has several parts, a section to extract AC energy from the stator which converts it to DC (rectifier), a section to regulate the voltage to 15V or less so the bike can use it and a shunt device to consume unused watts that are not consumed by the bikes operation. Any of these sections could have been damaged OR was damaged before all this began and this Pushed it over the edge!!!​

What tools do you have? Do you have a DMM? Access to e current meter?

LEAKAGE CURRENT KILLING YOUR BATTERY??
Here is a some info I gathered while the bike was apart for other reasons. Its looking specifically at current draw while the bike is OFF and sitting. For this test the NEGATIVE battery lead was disconnected and the meters test leads were connected to the battery and the bikes ground lead forming a current loop. Essentially any energy drawn from the bikes battery had to pass through that meter via the two test leads. Now we can measure current draw.

FWIW: the FSM does not list a standard value for current draw when the key is off. The value here seems reasonable. Also - bike is designated for the states (US).

CURRENT DRAW; KEY OFF - Powering the Meter only to keep Time:
CURRENT = 0.001Amps Although it kept switching from 0.001 - 0.000A. Given the range of the meter - I'll call it 0.0005 Amps. I placed a current meter between the battery and the Negative lead.

10Ahr battery loosing 0.0005A equates to this:
10Ahr/0.0005A = 20,000 hrs <How long it could run from battery

20,000hrs/24hrs day = 833 days to kill that battery

In short, the battery will kill itself before my bike does. Batteries have their own internal resistance which is more than the load of the meter keeping time.

On to more exciting things!
What if we leave the key on and don't start the bike?? OUCH! This one hurts the battery FAST!!! Once the fuel pump does its thing and shuts off, the ECM and lighting are drawing 1.7A!!!!

10Ahr battery loosing 1.7A per hour - your done in a couple hours I bet. Don't leave the key on!
10Ahr / 1.7A = 5.8 hrs. But I doubt it will start the bike in 3 hours.

Technical info on current draw:
With the key off the only only thing connected to the battery is the RR. So, if your RR has a bad diode, it would be wise to unplug it and repeat this test. If the current read through the meter drops, your RR is the source of the current loss. If it has no change, than your ignition switch may be dirty and conducting electricity to other components.

And if you're wondering why I didn't use the lower current range of "micro amps" on the meter, well it goes like this; Free is a good price even if certain functions don't pass calibration and can't be trusted.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

In the same link I posted above is another post on that topic... # 5

LEAKAGE CURRENT KILLING YOUR BATTERY??


A quick summary - those reversed leads may have taken a toll on the RR. The RR is composed of diodes. Diodes subject to electrical shock (reversed polarity) can either short or leak or open.

If shorted, your battery would likely be dead. But if leaking, this supports the lower output and draining the battery while off. THAT SAID, some testing needs to be done to determine which component is at fault as it MAY NOT BE THE RR! But it is the most likely candidate....

The RR has several parts, a section to extract AC energy from the stator which converts it to DC (rectifier), a section to regulate the voltage to 15V or less so the bike can use it and a shunt device to consume unused watts that are not consumed by the bikes operation. Any of these sections could have been damaged OR was damaged before all this began and this Pushed it over the edge!!!​

What tools do you have? Do you have a DMM? Access to e current meter?

Why they didn't use zener diodes is beyond me. The price would be slightly higher, but in the case of a reverse bias, the real damage would only be done to the fuse.

 

[FinalImpact]

Why they didn't use zener diodes is beyond me. The price would be slightly higher, but in the case of a reverse bias, the real damage would only be done to the fuse.

A reverse bias with no current behind and its ok. Likely no damage. A reverse bias with 650CCA cage battery and current will flow through the fuse and hit the RR, once the load through the fuse exceeds its rating then it pops. So, regardless, there is some potemntial for damage.

To your point tho, yes diodes could protect it but something may have been compromised that lead down this path before the base hit!

 

[artibramuir]

I have a crappy Harbor Freight multimeter, though I have been looking for an excuse to upgrade. But I think it has everything I need to do these test.

The ignition switch possibility is interesting. My ignition switch is in terrible condition. Difficult to turn to "on", can't lock it at all, looks like it's been through a lot. So maybe it was the original problem keeping my battery from holding a charge? I've been thinking about replacing it anyway.

Of course, the battery problem seems much worse now than it did before the lead reversal, so I wouldn't be surprised if the RR was also shot. I'll have to see when I get home.

 

[Motogiro]

If you were going to use a diode for protect at the front near the battery it would be one hell of a hi current device for your forward voltage and even then you'd a have a small drop in voltage. A zener maybe in a crowbar circuit but that would be more of an over voltage brute force device.

There's a good chance the R/R in this case has a leaky/shorted diode that may have been the problem killing the battery in the first place.

Charge the battery and load test it.

Test the stator windings. Don't forget to test the stator windings (all 3 legs) to see if there is continuity to the engine chassis or ground. If there is continuity to ground the stator is toast.

If the stator passes go to the R/R test listed in the link( previous posts). There is a video. Here:[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8EjV0IjW9Q[/ame]

Of course you can also start by doing a leak test and if there's a leak unplug the R/R to see if the leak stops.
Even if you show no leak, check the stator and R/R per instructions.

 

[FinalImpact]

Another test:

If you only have a volt meter and an incandescent test lamp you can detect leakage. Assuming battery has ~ 12V or better.

• Disconnect the NEG battery lead.
• Connect Test Lamp between the Battery negative and the Negative lead. If the the 12V lamp lights, start unplugging stuff.
  
• First item is the RR
• Then go through the smaller fuses in the pod.

When current stops flowing the lamp will go out. Also, the clock in the meter does not draw enough current to light an incandescent bulb.

Use the meter to ohm out shorts or test diodes if it has that function.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Any updates?