Bad CCT? Not sure anymore?

[LINDYMAC]

Posted a few days ago about a potential bad CCT, here are some more details.

Took my 06 to a mechanic for valve service, valves were fine, mechanic told me he cleaned out throttle bodies while in there. That's all I know.

I picked up the bike and it was making a loud noise, the best way i can describe is, imagine that normally there is some kind of sound damping around the engine case, that is now removed. Doesnt sound like marbles, doesnt sound like a bad chain, no ticking. It Sounds like a motor actuating, just REALLY loud, engine case is louder than exhaust at low RPM. It changes with idle, but the same sound is always there, regardless if bike is warm / cold.

Here is the Kicker while manipulating the throttle out on the road, I can hear that loudness disappear around 3500 to 4000 rpm occasionally, and when it disappears, it sounds like a valve is closing around a leak or something,

At first I thought i might be crazy, I took the bike back to the mechanic and he gave me a funny look, so I left, and I wont be back to him. I don't think I'm noticing a loss in performance. And it doesn't sound like a CCT issue, based on what I've been reading.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Posted a few days ago about a potential bad CCT, here are some more details.

Took my 06 to a mechanic for valve service, valves were fine, mechanic told me he cleaned out throttle bodies while in there. That's all I know.

I picked up the bike and it was making a loud noise, the best way i can describe is, imagine that normally there is some kind of sound damping around the engine case, that is now removed. Doesnt sound like marbles, doesnt sound like a bad chain, no ticking. It Sounds like a motor actuating, just REALLY loud, engine case is louder than exhaust at low RPM. It changes with idle, but the same sound is always there, regardless if bike is warm / cold.

Here is the Kicker while manipulating the throttle out on the road, I can hear that loudness disappear around 3500 to 4000 rpm occasionally, and when it disappears, it sounds like a valve is closing around a leak or something,

At first I thought i might be crazy, I took the bike back to the mechanic and he gave me a funny look, so I left, and I wont be back to him. I don't think I'm noticing a loss in performance. And it doesn't sound like a CCT issue, based on what I've been reading.

How many miles on the bike? IMPORTANT, Is this a NEW NOISE since he worked on it??

Also, is the noise is happening when NOT IN MOTION, (trying to rule out the drive chain should it be worn badly) and pretty much is RPM related?

It would have been nice (if you mentioned the noise before he started) to pull the cam chain cover and check the chain, case along with if the CAM SHAFT MARKS LINE UP (while the valve cover was off). Where I'm going is to check cam chain stretch.

If NOTHING lines up EXACTLY, the cam chain is stretched(with tension on the rear run of the chain). Both cam marks and the crankshaft mark should be at TDC, dead on, IF the chain is good.

The cam chain tensioner is NOT terribly expensive and not difficult to install.

The CCT / chain wear, would obviously eminate from the right side (under the smaller right cover, forward of the clutch cover) but it does echo thru out the engine making an exact diagnosis sometimes difficult.

If in any doubt, IMO, I'd just replace it. They are known to fail with time/miles. Its good insurance, less than $100.00, part #6 VS bent valves, broken pistons, (blown engine basicallY) :

Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2006 FZ-6 - FZS6V CAMSHAFT CHAIN Diagram



Probably not the issue but worth checking, the header nuts (at the head). Depending on the conditions, they sometimes come loose (a couple of mine have loosened up just a tad, making a new ticking noise). If their frozen solid, and don't appear to be leaking at the head, DON'T TIGHTEN THEM, they will likely break. 15 foot lbs


One other thing to mention (do a search here), is the oil pump chain. It does NOT have a tensioner and is located under the clutch and goes down to the water pump shaft. It doesn't go often, but is a possibility..

Specified slack is NOT in the manual, however, generally, if its more than 1/4 to .5", it could very well be slapping up against the cases internally. The chain unfortunatly is a bit more involved to check/change out.

Once you fnd a competant mechanic, I'd pass along the suggestions. Hopefully he can find the issue without taking too much apart.

Good luck and please post the final fix..

 

[LINDYMAC]

Thanks so much for the detailed response. 16K Miles on Bike (I was a tool, and misread the owners manual, I know valves should have been at 24k) and yes, the noise was not there when I dropped it off, and was there when I picked it up. Night and Day difference. Sound is happening in no motion, motion, clutch or no cluch, but again, it "closes off" with that valve noise around 4k Rm. Or at least if it doesnt, the exhaust / wind drowns it out.

I think I am just going to go ahead and replace the tensioner. Though I feel like 16K is low. Its not the drivechain, that was actually just replaced as well with some fresh sprockets.

 

[seacliff]

Thanks so much for the detailed response. 16K Miles on Bike (I was a tool, and misread the owners manual, I know valves should have been at 24k) and yes, the noise was not there when I dropped it off, and was there when I picked it up. Night and Day difference. Sound is happening in no motion, motion, clutch or no cluch, but again, it "closes off" with that valve noise around 4k Rm. Or at least if it doesnt, the exhaust / wind drowns it out.

I think I am just going to go ahead and replace the tensioner. Though I feel like 16K is low. Its not the drivechain, that was actually just replaced as well with some fresh sprockets.

If the noise wasn't there before and a valve checkup was done, couldn't it be something as simple as the chain moved out of place from the cam sprocket?

 

[TheeAntic]

If the noise wasn't there before and a valve checkup was done, couldn't it be something as simple as the chain moved out of place from the cam sprocket?

If that were the issue you would have a lot more problems than just a tapping noise.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks so much for the detailed response. 16K Miles on Bike (I was a tool, and misread the owners manual, I know valves should have been at 24k) and yes, the noise was not there when I dropped it off, and was there when I picked it up. Night and Day difference. Sound is happening in no motion, motion, clutch or no cluch, but again, it "closes off" with that valve noise around 4k Rm. Or at least if it doesnt, the exhaust / wind drowns it out.

I think I am just going to go ahead and replace the tensioner. Though I feel like 16K is low. Its not the drivechain, that was actually just replaced as well with some fresh sprockets.

If it started AFTER you dropped it off and it wasn't there BEFORE, he screwed something up, period...

Couple of options IMO,

(1)Bring it back and ask WTF? Although I know your not happy with him. At least find out, document EXACTLY WHAT HE DID so the next mechanic may have a place to start. If there's NOT another mechainic, (preferrably higher up), insist on him checking it, or I'd go elsewhere..

(2)Find another mechanic, explain what the other "mechanic" supposidly did and have him explore from there.

I had to assume you had over 25,000 miles for the valve check, 16,000, is super low and I doubt any of the issues I posted earlier are your issue.

If he just checked AND DIDN'T ADJUST any valves, he would NOT have pulled the camshafts or CCT, just the valve cover and everything to get to it. The right side CCT round plastic screw in covers to find TDC and to turn the engine by hand(socket).

I suspect its not something terribly serious (short of him dropping a wrench or something stupid in the engine).

If you can post an audio video would be a big help...

Once again, please post your findings... good luck...

 

[FinalImpact]

I think we just touched on this in another thread.

Engines with cam chains and auto tensioner can have the CCT damaged by rotating the engine backwards which is something that can happen during the valve lash check/adjustment if mechanic rotates engine CCW because they missed their mark thus taking a shortcut and turning the engine backwards.

OUTSTANDING ISSUE:
OR if they follow the YAMAHA FSM as IT IS IN ERROR!!! It specifically says to rotate CCW during valve lash check and this is in error!
The Engine rotates CW only and should only be turned CW. If you miss a rotational stop point, either proceed to the next or rotate 72X° and try again.

IF A MECHANIC FOLLOWS THIS, DAMAGE CAN OCCUR!
=================================================

LIT-11616-20-60 PAGE 89 of the (Section 3-4).

ADJUSTING THE VALVE CLEARANCE
The following procedure applies to all of the valves.
a. Turn the crankshaft counterclockwise.
b. When piston #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke, align the TDC mark “a” on the pickup rotor with the crankcase mating surface “b”.

NOTE:
TDC on the compression stroke can be found when the camshaft lobes are turned away from each other.
c. Measure the valve clearance with a thickness gauge “1”.
**** TAKE NOTE THE SECTION IN RED IS WRONG!!!! IT TURNS CLOCKWISE ONLY!! ****
​

=================================================

The CCT takes out the slack on the backside of the chain. The back side has minimal loading during acceleration and more load when the crank decelerates. However, if the engine is rotated backwards CCW, it places excessive loads on the CCT and ones that are marginal, can cause them to fail.

I would be highly suspect of the CCT. I would also ask if the mechanic followed the work instruction in the manual. If they did without "exception", I'd say they owe you a new CCT.

I propose a STICKY of a very specific Title to warn EVERYONE!

I can't say this is is or is not your problem, It does however directly correlate to the event.

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm going to take an action item to write something and sticky it in the two major repair sections of the forum.

Sadly I forgot all about this error.

Do note; the R6 FSM is CORRECT and that is where our engine design came from!
FI

 

[LINDYMAC]

Very Very helpful guys. I'm unfortunately hesitant about heading back to the mechanic. It's like a he says she said kinda of situation. I say there is a noise, he says it sounds fine - I'm pretty sure I'm going to ask him to inspect it, he's not going to find anything (because he caused it in the first place) and then he's going to bill me @ 85 An hour, I'm not a fan.

I will ask him if he takes time to monitor what direction he's turning the motor over to align TDC. I'm also going to try and bring a decent MIC home from work to record the engine noise, for what it's worth - it is "louder" on the LEFT side of the bike, near the front of engine / headers. I'm still a relative newb with a wrench, but I giving myself baby step goals, this weekend I'm going to lift the tank & sync up the Throttle bodies (because, why not?) and Install a fresh K&N Filter. Is there anything else I might be able to ID while in there? can you check chain tension by hand / ruler? I'll snap some photo's and post here. I really appreciate the input, I will follow up as soon as it is resolved. I feel like a few other folks have posted on this same issue,

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'd FIRST ask him which way and how he turned the motor to TDC, don't give him the answer first.

The cam chain and tensioner are on the right side (as you sit on the bike), under that smallish cover, with the approx 1" plug in the middle.. You actally remove THAT PLUG, then put a socket on there and turn the engine slowly (as Randy pointed out, CLOCKWISE or FORWARD) over by hand to top dead center for checking valves.



Should the CCT be damagaed, again, its under $100 and doesn't take 1/2 hour to swap out...

Scott

BTW, if you are narowing down the noise to the LEFT FRONT side of the engine, it could very well be a blown header exhaust o-ring of more likely, the bolt just loosened up some. If you have a 12MM socket (I believe its a 12mm), just gently, when the engine is cold, check the header bolts. If one is MUCH looser than the rest, just snug her down(if you don't have a torque wrench). If its tight, DON'T LEAN ON IT/ FORCE IT.. You can so this yourself very easily