Aluminum Bars, Vibrations, what to do

[KB2WYL]

That's what I thought...and mines 94, nice and low. The FSM for adjusting talks about checking the voltage at idle, not that that's a problem, easy enough to do, but I figured in Diagnostic mode I can just simply physically adjust it the tiny bit to find ~100+. Right? Voltage output from it is fine, I already know that from last time I was checking the FC as it reads it out (it hooks TPS inline)

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I don't know how they checked mine(volts or just diagnostics), but by hand and with the diagnostic on the gauges, you should be fine...

BTW, you want to check ALL the #'s in-between, there should be no skipping, no missing #'s, etc...

 

[KB2WYL]

Yes, thank you. I did, it's nice and smooth no dead spots. That's why I forgot about it last couple weeks...but I do need to change it. Also one other small thing I need to do is to hook back up a hidden switch for my motor run switch. With it wired ON like it is now, I cannot perform diagnostics in which it needs to be shut off.

Thanks,

Loren

 

[KB2WYL]

So since the page is up and the computer is here...real quick...Just got the TPS adjusted....I can't get within bottom AND top end. I went with 20 and 100. I'm thinking that the lower end, the 20, will be reset a bit when I start it at idle. I'm thinking that's why they say to adjust idle BEFORE doing TPS, which I did. Couldn't find any direct info in FSM or on web, except for resistance and voltage checks, all of which it passes...

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As long as the top end as very close to 100 your fine... Going over richens the mix a little.

The puter thinks the throttle is open more than it actually is(more fueling)..

I wouldn't worry about the closed throttle idle #'.. Your not likely not to lean out and cook a piston at idle

It's like the manual wants a certain pressure specified at sea level whilst doing a sync. Ain't gonna happen..

 

[FinalImpact]

You have a fuel controller so I'd say it is moot point and would opt for good ###'s at idle. The volume of air at idle is minimal and needs the correct ratio. That said it needs to be in spec for proper idle.

WOT.... in terms of closed to WOT you have what roughly 82° of rotation and 98.5 - 15 = range of 83.5 data points. My point is the percent of error is so small that at WOT it is likely fueling exactly the same 90 as it is at 100 because the blades physical position has little impact on volume through the TBs....

If you can get both ## in spec great, but I'd opt for a stable idle as the ACTUAL Difference in FLOW through this TB at those angles are next to nill. Can you tell a difference like something really kicks you in the @ss that last mm of grip twist??? Nope... thats my thoughts.... others may vary....

 

[KB2WYL]

Well guys...I'm in the middle here. I think that at WOT, or at 75% throttle, or whatever, that there is a difference. It's not about where I have the throttle. Who cares if I get full power at full 82% rotation or at 81% or...To me, it's about how much fuel CAN be delivered. FZ6 goes off its maps for acceleration, right. So, if I open it wide to accelerate...I'm already leaner than stock, airbox, all the exhaust stuff...So if computer thinks "well, give it enough gas for 94 (that's where I was) percent, then of course I get less gas than I would if it was thinking it was at 100.

Now idle, I understand the importance there as well. But, I'm still thinking that when I restart the motor, that bottom end will change.

See service manual says between 4-6K total resistance. So it's not like I'm moving an encoder or something, with only a fixed amount of outputs. Seems to me like I'm setting the top end, and then bottom end is set by the fact that it's idling (It says in FSM, bottom end set by tach at idle)

AND, my fuel controller, only works at idle up to 40% throttle, and 8K RPM. It's going for a 13.6AFR. So yes, kind of moot point, but at the bottom end not the top. At the bottom end, at idle, it's in closed loop with the controller keeping that 13.6. Right?

We'll see, probably tomorrow morning. Little bit of messing around tonight. I'm going to use the rod idea Randy, thanks, but instead of going back to the frame it's going to just have to go couple inches from the 2Bro tail tidy back to where the GIVI mounts meet together under the cans. Everything fits, It's snug all right, but no direct contact where it shouldn't be.

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

I'll loan you my backup TPS! It goes from 10 to 111!

Reads as Diagnostic: 01 = 10 & 111. Not bad for a hack!


Haha!!! Blah Blah

 

[FinalImpact]

When you look down here and think in terms of critical angles vs flow volume, which angle is under huge scrutiny to do the right thing???? The sharp 90'ish where it comes off idle or the one where its open and then opens a tiny bit more??

Just guessing but from 85% grip open to 100% the air flow is not jumping off the charts so it is very likely the injection duration changes very little if any...

Do as you see fit....

 

[KB2WYL]

That makes sense Randy, and thank you. Believe me, as I see fit is changing as I learn more and more about the FZ and these systems in general.

I get what you're saying, I agreed before that low end most important, but I suppose I wasnt thinking of how little the fuel would change as the butterflies physically go from 80-83....yeah, very little.

well, ok then. Still, how does the ECU decide the values on the low end to begin with? There must be something that changes the low value besides just moving the sensor. I cant see that it's "exactly x volts returned equals closed throttle". Because in the FSM its a wide margin of total resistance that is acceptable.

And, it tells us that "closed TPS is decided by tachometer..,,I mean i don't think the TPS is bad, it's super smooth, something must be limiting it to 80% instead of 83?? I suppose ill just have to look it up, that's probably common as well.

Thanks again for taking the time and the pics, I appreciate it.

Loren

 

[KB2WYL]

I've searched all over the Web. Can't find anything but general TPS info, what it is, what it affects, I understand all of that.

What I don't understand....

A variety of resistance is acceptable. If you have a pot with 4k total, that's fine, but another one with 6k total is also fine (as per FSM). That's a BIG difference.

And so, if we have two bikes with different total resistance pots on them, then the amount that resistance changes as you twist the throttle is different

But, on those two bikes, the amount that the butterflies actually move as you twist the throttle is NOT different.

So on one bike, from 0 to 4K is "16 to 100".....But on another bike, from 0 to 6K is "16 to 100". If I took two different TPS that were both in spec and worked fine, and hooked them up one at a time and adjusted them so that they both had the same resistance at idle, they would have different resistances at WOT.

So there must be some part of this operation that is set by the ECU....??


Thanks guys,

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

Best guess is it goes something like this; unlike an old carb where you open and close the throttle plates a small amount to obtain proper idle speed, these always return to zero for lack of better words and this zero has some output voltage, right? So ecu thinks plates are closed and supplies fuel based on temps, vacuum, rpm, and tps and its always evaluating this data from its look up tables and outputs spark an fuel.

The loose spec for tps is total resistance across three points. In that picture where I did a hack tps into I think a 5K ohm pot, well I added a resistor to each the ground and 5v input. Why? Two reasons. 1, to meet the basic total resistance. 2, and most important to save my potentiometer from burning at either fully closed or fully open as I need to limit current through the pots wiper or it would apply 5v against zero ohms and fry it. The external resistors protect it.

Back to the bike, the resistance is of little value it is the act of voltage dividing that matters. Thats how my makeshift pot fooled the ecu into thinking it has a valid input.
Its why they want you to set the voltage and then do your work.

I may edit this.... but thats what comes to mind. And if the total resistance is off, its good indicator the tps is damaged.

 

[KB2WYL]

Ok, again I get everything you're saying, except that the resistance has little value. In a voltage divider, as you know, voltage is taken (or in this case sensed by ECU) from in between two resistors.

So, either 4 or 6 k total, either way we're getting current flow down low so that the TPS doesn't heat up, I get that.

And either way, we're moving what spot the wiper is in so that at closed (idle) the divider network yields 5V...ok I get that too, and looking at the schematic I see how it works in conjunction with the air pressure sensor, lean angle sensor, etc.

So is it that at idle, we are setting the divider to 5V, and then at WOT the divider is not dropping any voltage?

Thanks again,

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Does that bike ever get ridden??

 

[KB2WYL]

Ha ha...funny...Hey, out of the 3 people on this thread, I'm not the one with the least ride time this year ...And FWIW, this isn't about me chasing after some setting with MY TPS, this is just gaining knowledge, since there are minds here that know more about these systems on the bike than I ;-P

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm going for a ride.

 

[KB2WYL]

I bet you did...Floridian!....I was supposed to go on a 500mi round trip ride, starting in 2 hours from now. Instead I'm picking up what remains of my backyard after last nights 70mph+ gusts of wind. And, more rain for the next 2 days. I bet you count the days you can't ride, that's how it's been the months I've spent in FLA...Of course, It used to be that way here as well, when I moved here 8 years ago. This year the rainy season has been more like the constant rain season. Stinks....We've had less than 8 GOOD riding days this year, all of which I was working or in school and so got only small rides. Blaaa!!

 

[KB2WYL]

Figured I'd reply here Scott. Yep, vibes are gone. There's still a *little* buzz in the bars, but I'm convinced it's just those AL bars and the frequency of the exhaust. This week I'll finish machining my bar ends, about 10oz each, that should do it

So yeah, wanted to post some pics of the exhaust, and the couple little other things I did.

Here's the taillight. They get loose, and because of the way they are mounted, it's a PIA to get them snug to the top while keeping a "soft" mount. So, I figured one better. This grommet fits in and keeps the lens pushed up as far as it will go. Now, it cannot vibrate against the exhaust fairing or the seat fairing. Because it comes to a point like it does on the bottom, the grommet stays put, and I bet no one would have even noticed in the pics from normal viewing distance. Good for that exhaust fairing as well, one more point to keep it more secure since it's so thin back here.

Up underneath. I took the A-Frame and cut off just the mounts to the frame. This way I didn't have to make anything to secure the bottom of exhaust fairing and the seat fairing. All I kept of it were literally L brackets, just the hole for the horizontal bolt to hold it on, and the tapped hole for the vertical fairing hold bolts.

See, can't even notice the grommet unless you're really searching for it.

And,. even though I posted it in the other thread, the exhaust now:


Only thing I didn't do yet are the plugs. We'll see them in a week or so after a couple of rides with the flow of this exhaust factored in.

Thanks Guys!

Loren

 

[KB2WYL]

Oh, and since this is Important I won't just edit the last post.

I should have mentioned though....

I've said it before and will again, I think I did a nice job on the homebrew exhaust. But being as though I am just learning about exhaust, this ended up nothing more than a great teaching experience. What I learned:

1: If you can weld and you really want to make an exhaust, go for it! Take your time, don't settle for anything, and you'll get what you want.

2: KNOW WHAT YOU WANT! This is the important one. I *thought* I wanted a straight through muffler hooked to a Y-pipe. Larger than exhaust pipe and smaller than 2.5" I.D. I mean, at first glance that is what all our aftermarket exhausts are, right?

Well, *kinda right*. If I was going for better breathing, mechanically solid, louder/better tone than stock, then hey I hit the bullseye. That's where I think "ya, I did a good job". BUT....what I was really going for were not only those things but also smoother running, and no increase in vibration (over stock). I knew going in to this that exhaust was a science, but I did not realize my lack of knowing the math would affect this much....

The differences in "vibration produced" and "flow" are stunning. My exhaust Y was very similar in shape and same size tubing. My cans were all of 1/2" narrower I.D., 1" shorter, and 3/4" smaller outlet (and as for outlet, same as some of the 2Bro tips). Those differences combined with the physical weight of mine caused gnarly vibes (even when completely frame isolated). Those differences made the bike lope at 1000RPM, VS rock steady idle of 1100RPM (when I first started bike, 2 Bros, running temp, before ANY idle adjustment).

Moral of the story is that yes, exhaust is an art. If anyone ever reads this and wants to build their own, I say go for it! Seriously, I feel confident you can make a system every bit as good as the 2 Bros., or any other aftermarket exhaust.
***But make sure you know how to calculate sizes, or copy one of those designs as closely as you can!*** Materials and all...

If you've read through this thread, and think I'm just over-analyzing it or the vibes weren't from the exhaust, I'll be happy to send you a nice set of heavy steel cans, with y-pipe, just for the cost of shipping Blah

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Quote: "Those differences made the bike lope at 1000RPM, VS rock steady idle of 1100RPM (when I first started bike, 2 Bros, running temp, before ANY idle adjustment)"


Think... Engineers spent many hours designing, testing, etc before these pipes(or Scorps, or most any other) go to the public.

My open Scorps, no mods, idles dead smooth at 1,100. Absolutely no issues, vibes, etc.


I also enjoy designing and making things, weld, etc and have a distributor in NC that sells MY designed /manufactured product WORLDWIDE.
The Easy Helmet Lock for the BMW K1300S, K1200S, K1300R, K1200R, K1200R Sport, R1200R , The Easy Helmet Lock for the BMW K1300S, K1200S, K1300R, K1200R, K1200R Sport, R1200R , The Easy Helmet Lock for the BMW K1200RS / GT , http://www.fjrowners.com/forums/24-fjr-specialist-suppliers/14214-fjr-lock-brackets-available.html, (and more)

However, exhaust and other things as such, take much engineering to work best...