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Aluminum Bars, Vibrations, what to do

That's what I thought, thanks Scott.

So, REPORT time Blah

TB's -- All sync'd at 8.6 inHg.

Air screws -- All out between 5/8 and 7/8 turn.

Idle screw -- Out a couple of turns past half way (There's about 14 turns to bury it all the way, FWIW). Once it cooled down after the sync and I restarted, Idle was at about 1250. After it warmed up again, idle was down to about 950. When doing the sync, I had set it at 1025 or so, just over the 1k line, so now being down to 950 when warm, I'm sure it's just small differences in the movement of the idle control vavle spring. At 950 (and that was very stable: ride, stop, ride, stop) it lopes like an opposed motor. Blup blup blup blup....but it keeps running and like I said, very stable. Yes, I know, this wouldn't be great if I did a lot of city riding and left it idling like this always. But the throttle response is fantastic, and if/when at red light, I know how to rev :rolleyes:

CO values both at zero, and fuel controller hooked back up giving slightly richer mix than stock at idle. During riding, stock map, with slightly richer achieved by FC fooling ECU into thinking it's getting lean readings from O2. (In the software it's referred to as a richer closed loop)

Only other change I made was taking off the CA EVAP system. Capped the ports on TB #1 and #4, and took out all that extra vacuum line and the charcoal canister (of course while bike was open, before sync, hopefully I don't have to tell you guys that ha ha ha)


So...The Bad Vibes?? Well, I can certainly feel that I took out the imbalance from the motor. The amplitude has decreased significantly. In fact, to the point that before you'll remember I said it "stopped" around 6K? Well, not any more. Now the amplitude is far less but still a very noticeable buzz from just past idle all the way up. I know what it is now, it's just that exhaust of mine and these bars don't get along. My homemade cans sound great, but they do have a serious drone to them. Like if you took a stereo and left the bass and treble alone, but buried the midrange. That's my pipes. I'm not dropping 350 on a pair of cans, and I don't see how I can change my exhaust tone with these....An insert? No, the holes are only 1.6" each, which is perfect for the 1.75" exhaust coming into them, since there's 2 of them, but I wouldn't want to make it any smaller...

Seems like I'm the first one to try out these Mika Metals KTM bars. They're similar to Renthals, but surely not the same, and they resonate like crazy with the exhaust tone. I do like them a lot, as I do at least 70% of my riding down on the tank... I found EMGO superbike bars, look to be the same, but steel. Any other suggestions? Mine and Emgos have 2.5" rise and 4.75" pullback. I'd be OK with slightly less rise and pullback, but cheap is the name here...FZ1, yeah, but cant find any cheap...

So yeah, at least she's back to riding!! Thank you for all the help thus-far, I appreciate it!

Loren
 
I forgot to say, Water Bear, that as far as bars go I'm looking at ones with less rise and less pullback than stock. I looked those up, and they look nice, but definitely too much rise for me :-)

Loren
 
Something I don't remember you addressing as well comes to mind. (may have)

My Scorps are wrapped in a rubber and stainless steel strap, so it is NOT hard mounted to the frame, per say....

With that said, you could very well be getting "exhaust vibs" transferred thru the frame.

Unless you used the stock rubber, inserted mount (I forgot) there is an option to help/ at least reduce the hard mount....

And I'd crank that idle up to at least 1,100, for oil pressure issues. Mine cold is a couple higher but NEVER drops below
1,100 hot and is rock steady, no lope..
 
What a moron! (I am)....I can't believe the rubber mounting didn't come to me sooner. I KNOW better than that, especially from acoustics designing. I guess I wasn't thinking because I had hooked it up exact same as stock, where there wasn't any. I'll have to stop and get some rubber grommets. Drill some holes larger, retap, insert grommet. I've been meaning to buy a larger bore tap/die set. Thanks Scott!

As for the idle, I thought about that too. I don't think it's TOO low to hurt oil pressure though, but I may turn it up a little..,like I said at first it was just over 1000. I just want to keep it 1100 or below this time. The loping isn't a bad thing, it's not running rough, very smooth actually...suppose better safe, but then again, I'm barely ever stopped when I ride, and cold, it's higher...

I bet the rubber does it...you said that was an option stock?

Loren
 
The option I was going to mention was what you just posted. Opening the mounting hole(s), a rubber grommit, maybe a nylon lock nut and NOT bolting down super tight...

The 590 GPS I bought new. I had issues with and sent it back several times for malfunctions.. I eventually got them to send me a new one BUT I changed my mounting system some, introducing a rubber grommet in the set up, some rubber washers, and tightening down just the amount needed for no movement. Wether it was the GPS or my mount, there's no more issues.

Also to be noted, I do have a stock FZ fork/springs, 7.5 weight oil, BUT modified with air suspension which TIGHTENED up the suspension substantially (depending on the PSI-droop, ride height, etc). Been that way for about 1.5 years and works wonderful. Topped off the air twice (lost maybe 2 lbs each top off) so it's NOT like the GPS was attached to a mushy, stock front end.







 
Again, Thank you Scott. It's going to be a b$%ch to get them on. I thought I did pretty well welding the whole exhaust and y pipe and getting the mounts right, but, it was indeed tight. Not that it's any tighter of a fit than stock was, same fit, but the tail tidy/bottom part of the mount....I have those GIVI circular brackets that go around the exhaust and secure down at the bottom. Getting the GIVI brackets, exhaust (which contains the actual tapped holes), and tail tidy into place is a pain. Always has been, in fact it was worse with stock when I had to also get the screws through the plastic cowl that's now removed. But yeah, I'll have to grommet the bottom AND the top mount, as both of them are hard to the frame. I feel really confident that it will make a huge difference, as the handlebars after this recent tuning are literally "playing the exhaust tone" and vibration is exact same at standstill as riding. I knew for sure yesterday when I could feel the vibration, yet, still feel even little things in the road...

Which leads me to my next point, feeling little things in the road...I also do not have stock front springs. I went with the racetech setup with .95 springs. They say that's for 185-200lb with gear, I'm more like 165-170 with gear. Then I have the preload adjusters on top of them, pressing down an extra 1/2" or so, and my spacers are about 1/4" longer than stock (longer than the already longer taking into account shorter racetech springs)....so the .95 springs compressed about 3/4" over stock load. I like it a lot, since I did it, no mushiness. Back end too, preload set up to 7. For the back, it won't last, that spring has about seen it's day, but for now it's fine. Need to do rear shock next, though, probably go with Randy's setup there...

I'm off to school for now, got a late start today so in a rush. Back end will be off this evening. Hopefully locally available, some high temp rubber, or at least hard rubber, grommets.

Loren
 
That "L" shapped bracket you cut off the muffler is isolated with rubber as is the header and mid pipe. The trick is that they can not be forced into place or the rubber isolation is rendered ineffective.

Basically the bolts need to thread in and snug down without changing the component alignment pinning the isolation biscut to one side. Hence the reason I opted to keep the oem mid-pipe and couplers as those couplers allow some misalignment being as soft as they are and the mid-pipe rubber isolation. Most of the aftermarket world opts for a pipe to pipe slip fit relying on springs for retention.

Did I read that right; o2 sensor is connected and PC FC is in place? The ECU will attempt to sustain 14.6 afr and most steady state throttle positions thus overriding piggyback fuel maps. Basically who knows what the afr is as the ecu must have limits as to how much correction it can make.... disconnect the O2 sensor if you want to use the map in the FC....

FWIW: cold idle is maybe 1400RPM. As it warms from 150 to 185F or so the idle lopes. As it hits >200F it smoothes out.
 
KB2WYL said:
Again, Thank you Scott. It's going to be a b$%ch to get them on. I thought I did pretty well welding the whole exhaust and y pipe and getting the mounts right, but, it was indeed tight.
Click to expand...

You can probably confirm the "connection" by simply loosening up the 4 sub frame bolts. Then revving the engine (stationary), and see how much the vibes decrease(as your technically somewhat to a point disabled the "connection".

As Randy noted, the old top mount would be perfect to re-cycle. Cut part (just the top) of what attaches to the sub frame off, use the OEM piece in there and add metal as need be to make fit..If that makes sense. Might be easier to design once full access is opened up...

Hanging the Tidy Tag, etc, is pretty light. Leaving that attached (if possibly) probably would be ok. Certainly NOT as critical as the weight of the mufflers DIRECT mounted to the frame...

Something really simple to install would be making / using would be what older cars used to use to hang mufflers, exhaust systems., heavy duty rubber with metal plates pop riveted on each end. Use your existing tab, cut it enough to bolt a HD piece of flat rubber (a cut down tire carcass or a parts store muffler hanger), then bolt that to the frame (or muffler). Rubber in-between, no solid mount, minimal cutting...
 
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Well I did use all the original connectors, top and bottom, taken off old exhaust and welded to mine. Probably just too tight. The bottom is a direct connection to frame on mine because of the top rack mounts. But, yeah, I'll loosen, try, and add rubber as needed. I also have oem midpipe connection so that part is fine (yes took out cat, but still oem hanger) just cans top and bottom need better rubber insulation.

as for what you said Randy, about the O2 sensor. Yes FC is hooked up and yes O2 is hooked up. Isn't it that way on your bazzaz? I mean aside from the extra logging O2...my FC hooks the O2 in line. This is what allows me to fool the ecu. Yes it's trying for 14.6, but the fuel controller is telling it that O2 readings are leaner than they really are, so I end up lower. That's one of the things I like about the PCFC is that outside of maps, I can change the entire closed loop system to go for 13.8 as opposed to 14.6. And so when I use maps, I don't have to disconnect the O2. It's cheaper than yours or the PCV, but it's not one of those cheapo "add fuel only" units. I like that I have the comfort of knowing that yeah the ecu is still trying to hold the afr, but it's richer which suits my wide open in/out mods.

and your cold idle to warm and then to hot...that's basically what I have going on, except doesn't get back quite as high as 1400, but then again around here I never get to 200+ except when syncing....
 
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Well, Just got home and going to take the back end back down. I'm becoming an expert at this...Reminds me of the first car I ever owned....you know the feeling, when you learn all too well how to deconstruct something, and no longer need to itemize parts as you remove them....

I picked up an assortment of rubber grommets and, these look promising, expansion bolts. Rubber expansion bolts, duh!....They eliminate any chance of metal to metal contact. And, a rubber expansion bolt with THEN a grommet, and washer, and nut holding the bolt on, will certainly hold better as the rubber expands and fills in the threads once filled by the bolt. With the bolt alone, grommets on each side and in the middle, you can only tighten so much and then it's still wiggling a bit. I get it, that's the point, but it would wear out grommets pretty quick. Remember, though I plan on keeping it for a long time, this is my first ever completely home built exhaust, so I'm sure to change it eventually...If I find a set of Scorps or 2Bro for a couple hundred bucks, or get to a motorcycle junkyard when I'm in a big city...yeah eventually....

Mine did NOT ever have rubber anything on the top. The oem can had the L bracket bolted to it (vertical bolts) and then when you slid the exhaust slip-on over the mid pipe, at the same time you were sliding that L bracket over the two bolt holes (vertical bolts) in the sub-frame. I know that's right, but sans the rubber....

The bottom bracket, Scott, a lot of setups allow that to be changed. Mine however has to stay welded to the mufflers and stay in it's original location, X, Y, and Z, exactly. The two GIVI side supports, for the top plate luggage/plywood thing I have, they come together there and rely on being bolted down tight for strength. It's a keystone kind of thing, you can apply as much weight as you want (ya, to a point) as long as the piece in the center cannot be "squished". So, maybe with those I can use the grommets on the other end where the side supports bolt up under the frame. Because yes, right now it is just as much a direct a connection as the top is. If I didn't use it so much I would take it off, and use your rubber hanger idea....but I do... What's funny about it is that my "cans" are only 4" wide. WAY skinnier than a lot of y'alls aftermarket exhaust cans. But, since the oem muffler was also 4" tall, I have to have the cans all the way up to 3/4" from the seat plate, in order to get that bottom bracket up high enough for the GIVI mounts...

I'll take some pics. Interested to hear what you have to say about your FC and the O2, Randy...I figure yours must use it as well, or you would have just used the oem bung for your logger.....

Loren
 
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Yeah, I just got down to it....I was wrong, there are grommets, but they are so hard I never realized or gave it much thought. With my setup they are indeed pushed to one side, like Randy said, but even if they weren't, I could definitely see vibrations transferring. With a made for motorcycles, lightweight exhaust, maybe not. But with my heavier "glass packs", no way those are going to stop the vibrations. Ok, on to finding a solution. Thanks Scott,

Loren
 
Send me a link to the PC FC you have.
As I know it, piggybacks on the fz are not closed loop. The ecu will win the battle.

More detail; the FC is looking at TPS, CPS, Speed sensor for engine vitals. Is yours gathering more intell? If so what?
Going with the above inputs it then takes the oem injector duty cycle and adds/subtracts or does nothing (pass through) based upon applied map in the controller.

The ecu on the other hand is reading that o2 sensor and altering its steady state fueling to keep the cats swinging back and forth crossing14.6 AFR threshold to increase the cats efficiency. Note: the cats loose efficiency even when at 14.6 afr. Thus they keep it a moving target oscillating over the threshold of 14.6.... too much detail...

So, as the FC adds fuel the o2 sensor takes charge at cruise and begins building and storing offset to maintain 14.6 +/- swing of perhaps 0.1 AFR. That said, keeping the o2 sensor connected defeats the FC install.

The Bazzaz Z-AFM on Crisis is a wideband o2 sensor feeding data to a blackbox which then inputs that into the fuel controller (oem is narrow band o2). It is not closed loop, just a logger storing data that can be read later.

PC can run in closed loop but it must have the oem ecu out of the loop. Thus it also uses a WB o2 sensor into some microcomputer that also feeds data to the FC making adjustments on the fly. Many report it is great. Those who look at its workings say it can hit the rails going to extremes which is not good for your engine.

Like I said before, the bazz will average and suggest changes to hit the target afr I choose. It does not always interpret a valid input from one which is invalid and then can suggest I apply its suggestions which can be in error. If I had to speculate, the PC software would be doing this same thing to your engine whike you are riding but without your knowledge.... Basically until we have complete control of all inputs and outputs, control will be half @ss. Esp w/out a knock sensor!

Does that mostly make sense?
 
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It makes sense, I understand that, and Thank You. As I interpret it, the PCFC is fooling the ECU as far as what the O2 sensor is telling it. The ECU *thinks* it's maintaining 14.6 because the resistance of the O2 sensor is being changed by the FC. On top of that, then there's the map, which yes, changes injector duty cycle. To use it on the FZ6, you have to keep the O2 connected. It changes the target AFR to 13.6. You are limited as to how much of a map you can use, but yes, you can use some of it...And, on top of all of this, there are the 3 manual controls which override everything else to add to your map, and your target AFR, either more or less fuel, at low, mid, and high RPM.

I could go on trying to explain it but here:

http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/FC22014/install/pcfc/engIFC22014.01.pdf

Some of it is a little confusing, simple but confusing. I've seen varying reports of what it actually does. But I can tell you this:

The "closed loop adjustment" where you can change that target AFR from 13.6 to more lean, or more rich, does indeed work and make a difference, at all RPM. Too far one way or the other is terrible. I have it set at +1 (out of a range of +10 to -10) to get slightly richer than 13.6 as my target.

The 3 controls, low (0-2k) mid (2k-4k) high (4-6k), I have set to 2,1,2 respectively. PCFC claims that these are -100 to 250%, but the range is only -5 to +5 so that would mean I have +100, +50, +100....I can't see that that is true, but, again, yes they all do make a noticeable difference at their respective RPM ranges.

As far as a map, I don't run one. For me, stock is fine for now, Feeling that I have it set up to be stock map, but going for 13.5 AFR area instead of 14.6.

Does that mostly make sense? Ha ha I think I'm more confusing than you....I know, I need to get something better, but this is the best I can do with what I have, and better for the motor than stock, I believe.

Thanks again,

Loren
 
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That clarified things. I didn't know what model you had.
To bad they didnt make a hybrid that allowed use of a wideband vs oem narrowband o2 sensor.

The narrowband sensor has a range of +/-1 at 14.6 afr. Hence the unit reaching its limit at 13.6 as that sensor is at its minimum limit and can not produce data below 13.6 where as the wide band is able to read from like 5 to 22 or something like that....

This seems like a little bit of "seat of the pants" dyno ops!!! Regardless, its all good just play an listen. Find the happy spot(s)!!! :thumbup:
 
I didn't realize the narrowband was THAT narrow...I'm not too familiar with O2 sensor operation, but electronically it must be a variable resistor? Since it can only change so much, you're limited. I understand that you can't just put a wideband on and voila! But is there any flexibility there? For instance, the target AFR with the fuel controller is 13.6. So it's looking for the lowest reading (or highest, however it works) on the O2 sensor. So if one knew values, one could series or parallel resistance. The "computers" wouldn't know the difference, but now your range would be a more usable 12.9-13.9, or whatever you chose? I don't see how this wouldn't work. Yes the computer is set up to only go from 13.6-14.6 (either one, only target is different), but it's getting it's info from the O2, so if you change that?

Loren
 
Oh and I got grommets on. Tomorrow I'll post pics. Bottom line, this will help considerably, but I'm going to have to change it. These mufflers are just too heavy. Not a big deal, I'll ride it like this for a while. 40$ and good welding practice, but I realize now the heavy weight of those mufflers getting vibrating is going to come through no matter what, unless the whole system was "hung" from rubber, and that's nowhere near feasible. If anyone sees a good pair of used cans, let me know,

Loren
 
Hope the isolation biscuits work for you.

O2 - even if you could bias the voltage output from the sensor, it is of no value as the circuit it connects too has its own expectations and that would more than likely be an invalid input. So if input value is outside of its range, its not like its going to do some miracle and tell the ecu we're looking for 13.0....

It's about design inputs and design outputs. If we want to redesign it, by all means it is possible if our pockets are deep enough!
 
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That makes perfect sense, if the circuit is only able to accept a certain voltage. I did some homework, and it's not a variable resistor (though those types do exist). I would assume we have a zirconia sensor, the most common, and rugged, narrow band O2 sensors. From Wikipedia:

[h=4]Zirconia sensor[edit][/h]

A planar zirconia sensor (schematic picture)​

The zirconium dioxide, or zirconia, lambda sensor is based on a solid-state electrochemical fuel cell called the Nernst cell. Its two electrodes provide an output voltage corresponding to the quantity of oxygen in the exhaust relative to that in the atmosphere.
An output voltage of 0.2 V (200 mV) DC represents a "lean mixture" of fuel and oxygen, where the amount of oxygen entering the cylinder is sufficient to fully oxidize the carbon monoxide (CO), produced in burning the air and fuel, into carbon dioxide (CO[SUB]2[/SUB]). An output voltage of 0.8 V (800 mV) DC represents a "rich mixture", one which is high in unburned fuel and low in remaining oxygen. The ideal setpoint is approximately 0.45 V (450 mV) DC. This is where the quantities of air and fuel are in the optimum ratio, which is ~0.5% lean of the stoichiometric point, such that the exhaust output contains minimal carbon monoxide.
The voltage produced by the sensor is nonlinear with respect to oxygen concentration. The sensor is most sensitive near the stoichiometric point (where λ = 1) and less sensitive when either very lean or very rich.
The ECU is a control system that uses feedback from the sensor to adjust the fuel/air mixture. As in all control systems, the time constant of the sensor is important; the ability of the ECU to control the fuel-air-ratio depends upon the response time of the sensor. An aging or fouled sensor tends to have a slower response time, which can degrade system performance. The shorter the time period, the higher the so-called "cross count"[SUP][2][/SUP] and the more responsive the system.









So, according to this, our ECU would be set up looking for around .48 volts, just barely rich of the "optimal" 14.7 AFR of the "stoichiometric point", which is .45 Volts. So, I know it's not a miracle cure for narrowband sensors. Shoot, it's kind of a moot point as with proper Fuel management like the Bazzaz or PCV it gets taken out of the equation. But it's still interesting to me. Seems that if there was an added resistance, the ECU would receive less voltage. It would think the mixture was lean, and so add fuel. By the time the voltage that the ECU was seeing was back to .48 volts, the voltage being produced by the O2 sensor would actually be higher, I.E. actually be richer. I would expect the ECU to only understand inputs in this .2-.8V range that the O2 is able to output, but I would not think it has any other way of knowing that something is "wrong", if it is actually leaving the injector duty cycle a bit higher than it would be without the added resistance. Surely this is how my PCFC works. It gets the signal from the O2 sensor which plugs into it, at say .48 volts, and it outputs a voltage to the ECU which is slightly lower, telling the ECU "no, we still need to make this mixture richer".



Interesting what you were saying about the Power Commander and taking the ECU out of the equation, just running the map from the commander. I did not realize that was even an option. Maybe I understood wrong and it's an option, but not for our bikes? Not something I'd ever want in any case, as I'd agree with high potential for damage, but I thought with the FZ6 there wasn't anything out that could control the timing tables, I thought *WE* always needed to have our ECU for the timing??


Thanks again Randy, I enjoy going back and forth on this stuff and learning new things. Hopefully the rubber will make a difference, it seemed to help a good bit in the garage, but I'm not hitting 6K steady in the garage either :rolleyes:. Those Delkevic exhausts look pretty nice, and come with the bracket so I could retain my bottom mount for the GIVIs, but geez even those are 400$...For what you're getting....I am looking to see if I can find any other builds out there where someone used just cans and built their own like I did. I've found some with the R6 cans, but I'm looking for some builds with just simple 40-50$ universal stainless cans. There's plenty out there, but if I end up building another system to save $$, I'd like to see how it looks on this bike....

Loren
 
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