All Obama supporters should watch this:

[mdr]

That is fine, if you are a socialist just stand up and say that you are. Don't sneak around and pretend that you aren't.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Everyone in America is now a socialist by definition. George Bush nationalized the banking industry. Get over it. Paulson wants to add the insurance industry. Get over it. "Socialist" isn't a bad word anymore. Get over it. Even my son - who's never voted for a Democrat in his life - is voting for Obama. He summed up his change of heart this way, "I don't care what you call Obama, I think he can unwind the economic mess we're in - so he's got my vote."

Hotei

 

[bertmoog]

[COLOR=\\\"DarkGreen\\\"]Uhhh....the government IS considered a productive company...and a regulator...that looks out for the financial well-being of it's citizens. Right now, the situation is stagnant. Barrack Obama simply wants to justify everyone's well-being (not JUST blacks). That's nothing remotely similar to communism.

If you want socialism and communism, just look at the bailout. I think you're dumping your **** in the wrong place... [/COLOR]

I dont really understand where your getting the whole "government = company" thing. No company I have ever witnessed has taken money from me and spent it in a manner against my wishes. Most certainly they are a regulator, which is a good thing in a sense. There are punishments for crimes for instance. However, the financial well being of the citizens of the US is desired by the majority our governing officials insofar as it helps their own financial or political status. Most of them are puppets of lobbyists. Make no mistake, Im not a Republican or Democrat, but I do find that McCain is the lesser of two evils (by far) of the two meager choices upon which we find ourselves once again deciding.

Maybe you meant "'ensure' everyone's well being"? If thats so, do you think that Obama is going to part with his millions? I understand he is wants to give my income to many people not just blacks. However, if you will listen to the audio again, please, you will see he is talking about the civil rights movement, i.e. the balck civil rights movement, and he said the supreme court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth(socialism) and "economic justice". In other words, the black people have been oppressed for so long that you owe us something. He's just stating it in a politcally correct, warm, fluffy way.

I also never said that this equalled communism, I said this would lead to communism. Is not the mantra of all liberals "More government". Legislators add laws all the time. Imminent domain, for example. How would you like it if someone came over to your house that you'd been living in for 40 years that your grandfather built and said, "This is a prime location for my mini mall, I'll take it. Oh and here's a little something for your trouble." That is essentially what that law means. If the state sees that your property stands in the way of some kind of commercial economic gain, it has the right to take it from you and offer you what it wants. You tell me honestly, and rationally that that does not sound like the beginning of communism. Big Brother, telling my children what is fact in schools. Theyre trying to disallow home schooling so that your children must be raised up hearing the same liberal propaganda as every other child in America. When did it become the governments job to raise my child?

Finally, do you honestly think that the bailout was my idea? Or that I agreed with it in any way? But, just so we're clear: Open Left:: Caucus Breakout on Obama's Bailout

I think you're dumping your **** in the wrong place...

Colorful, thank you.

 

[Scorphonic]

Without getting into a huge debate, nothing you said really makes any sense. Productive companies dont put a nation into debt. Government overspending puts a nation into debt. Our government believes it knows better what to do with our money than we do. Thats why we pay them over 25% of our income. Oh and guess what, companies pay half of the total income tax also, so the more workers they employ on the States side, the more money they have to shell out to this government to make sure that deadbeats get free housing and to make sure that our astronauts can drive across the moon in style while picking up rocks. Capitalism doesnt suck unless the goverment interferes.
So, to answer your question, no, I dont want things to stay like they are now, but if you think socialism is the answer then you must be currently living in government housing and I guess I'm supporting you with income.

Look at russia...are they in serious trouble with their economy??? NO. Why??? Because their government know how to run their country in an efficient manner. Now I dont want to draw a comparison between america and russia, god knows what trouble I may start there but lets keep this on track and take russia as an example of a well organised socialist/communist country. My Fiancee is from a socialist country and I have never seen such happy people, comfortable in their lives and content with what they have. There is no major levels of greed and the society as a whole are happy. Now if you think change is bad then you need to polish your clouded judgement to begin to see the light clearer for a second...change is good when you find yourselves in such debt. When I saw that america is in debt of 10 trillion dollars I can finally rest my case and say that America has got to be the weakest country in the world right now...do yourselves some good and vote in a president that is strong, capable and not republican!!!

Now I'm not an american so i'm not being submersed in your political boredom day in, day out. Franklly I dont care who rules America...if things go belly up in America the world economy will simply change (there's that word again) in a new direction and no longer rely on the american economy. That would spell absolute disaster on your economy and I doubt very much if the country can survive through that. Now thats the worst case scenario. I believe that if you put another eejit into the white house then your in serious trouble. Its time that America looks after itself.

I'm sorry if I come across very strongly but I think America has pushed its luck for a long time..surely all this war is costing you a massive amount of money for nothing. While countries like Russia are sitting back and smiling, as you get weaker they get stronger.

The current war in Iraq is a money pit and a waste of time...get your troops out now, put your army back to bed and start to get your country back in order to its former glory. If this is what Obama can offer then I think you have your only candidate right there!

 

[bertmoog]

I did not bring this topic up. Besides as much as I dislike McCain's administration I don't post propagandic clips a week away from Election Day in attempt to persuade others to vote for Obama. Therefore, I am free to voice my points, as much as you do.

$20 on Obama. Money talks B.S. walks.

I appreciate your candor, I for one do not have high hopes that McCain will win, nor do I necessarily want him to. But I absolutely do not wish for Obama to win which is exactly why I posted this thread. I'm curious, why do you dislike "McCain's Administration"?

 

[bertmoog]

A few observations.....

Anyone who breaks out the \\"Hussein\\" in Obama's name cannot be called neutral legitimately. If you want to convince undecided voters this is a bad move at least and racist at worst.

I never claimed to be neutral. On the contrary, I believe I'm being decidedly biased. But not biased based on opinion. When discussing the governances of a country, one must not base his stance on opinion. You are perhaps correct about this being a bad move as it seems to arouse people from the onset. I dont see it as being racist though. Do you? Ah, but it does tie him somewhat to Islam (in which he has some roots) and Islam "extremists", coincidently, are the ones who are constantly and viably threatening us and killing us. I see your point.

There's nothing wrong with socialism in principle. It's an idea - there is no absolute right or wrong about it

Interesting, and I suppose you would say the same of cannibalism? It is, after all just "an idea".

(I forgot....there WERE times in the history of this country that one could not claim to be a socialist.....despite the supposed freedom of speech we're supposed to have).

You technically cant be a socialist unless you are living in a country whose economic structure is socialistic. I for one do not want to live in such a country.

Distortions of any political system aren't helpful. The REAL questions is, how can we have such a wealthy country and produce such poorly educated citizens and so many without health care (if the far right is so worried about protecting innocent life, why not start by helping us reduce the INFANT MORTALITY RATE....we're like only ranked 29th in the world in this measure). We should be concerned about these things - socialism or not!

I cannot agree more! Thank you. How can we have such poorly educated citizens? Because we have what? Socialized education. Yes, whether anyone wants to admit it (and Im gonna get "flamed" for this one) we have a socialized educational system. I dont guess Ill waste my time in pointing out all the ins and outs of this because I will only be bashed by someone who doesnt proof-read his post.

In all seriousness, though, the infant mortality rate is astounding and a great tragedy. It is interesting to point out however that there was a bill to be passed a few years ago (I'm not sure if it passed) that would allow young, pregnant, irresponsible mothers to have state funded abortions apart from their parents consent. In other words, I would be paying for something which I utterly detest.

I come to this forum to talk about the FZ6. The fact that the original post was in 'General Discussion' shows a blatant disregard for what this forum is about and should be subject to an immediate :ban:

Yes Mac, so do I and I love this forum. My blatant disregard is profound in that I have started so few threads as not to know of "The Bar". Terribly sorry to have offended you.:thumbup:

 

[D-Mac]

I guess I must be a socialist.

I've lived in Canada and the U.S. (and I travel back and forth regularly). I've lived in 5 provinces and 2 states. I've spent about 8 years living in each country as an adult. I love both countries.

Health care is much better in Canada. Benefits for the unemployed/ underemployed are better too. End of story. You might have to wait an extra few days for something medically-related to be done in Canada (procedure for a non-life-threatening condition), but everyone is covered. It's not the horror-story that many americans believe exists. I notice almost NO DIFFERENCE except that you NEVER get a bill in Canada, and in the U.S. you get billed like CRAZY. I take Americans on trips to Canada regularly and they are always shocked at how comparable the health-care system is to what exists in the U.S.

It's true - taxes are a bit lower in the U.S., but not so much lower as Canadians might think. To be honest, I don't notice much difference in tax rates between the two countries. I think I paid LESS income tax in Canada, although sales taxes were higher. I was also able to benefit from the higher education system in Canada, which allowed me to complete several degrees with heavy subsudies from the government. I would never have been able to go to college without that help.

Canada consistently ranks much higher than the U.S. in issues such as quality of life and happiness. I don't think that's because of the long winters!

It's true that there are more opportunities for highly-educated people in the U.S. I think has more to do with the fact that it's a much bigger country than Canada than anything else. Canada does have a higher unemployment rate too, although I've currently living in Michigan and things seem worse here economically than anywhere I lived in Canada (and I've lived in the poorest parts of Canada along the Atlantic coast).

Don't get me wrong - I love living in the U.S. I just wish we could be more open to borrowing ideas that clearly work elsewhere. Why do we have to re-invent the wheel every time we want to do something new?

Clearly, no system is perfect (but the default position should not be that the existing U.S. system is AUTOMATICALLY better either). I think that there can be a balance between government controlling our lives and turning everything loose to the free market. We don't have to choose betwee the two extremes (in fact, we never have!) I favor a plan that's closer to what the Dems are suggesting at this point. I find the counter-arguments based more on misunderstandings and fear-mongering than logical reasoning (sad, because I think there ARE valid arguments that could be made for less government involvement and that's the debate we SHOULD be having). I think it's time we gave some new ideas a chance.

 

[KEELER]

Wow guys, i joined this forum becaue it was SUPPOSED to be about the FZ6. I sat down here this evening to post for the first time, to express my gratitude for all the good info concerning my Fazer and i read this political crap. Thought this was a motorcycle community, not a political outlet.

 

[bertmoog]

Health care is much better in Canada. Benefits for the unemployed/ underemployed are better too. End of story. You might have to wait an extra few days for something medically-related to be done in Canada (procedure for a non-life-threatening condition), but everyone is covered. It's not the horror-story that many americans believe exists. I notice almost NO DIFFERENCE except that you NEVER get a bill in Canada, and in the U.S. you get billed like CRAZY. I take Americans on trips to Canada regularly and they are always shocked at how comparable the health-care system is to what exists in the U.S..

Can't speak to which is better but I can tell you that just because you dont get "billed" doesnt mean youre not paying for it. I wonder if (Ive alluded to this in previous posts) doctors in Canada are as likely to be sued by their patients or if pharmaceutical companies advertise like crazy on every cable channel.

I was also able to benefit from the higher education system in Canada, which allowed me to complete several degrees with heavy subsudies from the government. I would never have been able to go to college without that help.
.

I went to college also from the help of the government but mine came in the form of loans which I'm still paying back. I was also able to get Pell grants which most low income people are able to get for college. These are non-repayable.

I think that there can be a balance between government controlling our lives and turning everything loose to the free market.

Yes! Thank you! I never meant that the state we are in now is perfect.

I favor a plan that's closer to what the Dems are suggesting at this point. I find the counter-arguments based more on misunderstandings and fear-mongering than logical reasoning .

What? Please elaborate.

I think there ARE valid arguments that could be made for less government involvement and that's the debate we SHOULD be having). I think it's time we gave some new ideas a chance.

That is quite true. This is only a branch off of that underlying debate.

 

[bertmoog]

Wow guys, i joined this forum becaue it was SUPPOSED to be about the FZ6. I sat down here this evening to post for the first time, to express my gratitude for all the good info concerning my Fazer and i read this political crap. Thought this was a motorcycle community, not a political outlet.

If you are not interested in this thread topic then why did you click on it and give everyone who has posted here a :spank: There are about 10000 threads that you can click on that have to do with the FZ6.

 

[Hollow]

Politics... :ban:

:ban::ban::ban::ban: Do you not think before you talk?? I don't care much about politics but when your attacking members off the forum I think you deserve a nice long ban... btw REPORTED

Where is bertmoog attacking ppl on the forum? All I see him doing is talking politics and making assumptions. When you make a assumption is that the same as attacking someone? Seriously I am asking you is it? Hmmm... If I remember correctly Macster is the one who flew off the handle and was the closes to attacking anyone. O and so you know I am not attacking you ok. So please don't report me again and again. Matter a fact lets just all do this and watch what happens. To be honest I don't care nothing about either McCain or Barrack blank Obama. What ever happens is meant to happen anyways. I am curious to see what happens no matter who is voted in. As far as welfare I don't know which races are in majority of the ones in welfare. Nor do I care. I work everyday for my money. I know this may offend some but I am sorry and again I am not attacking no one. But what I work for should not be TAKEN from me to give to someone who constantly keeps making stupid choices OR is not willing to work for there own. O before you go off saying I don't care about others. I don't mind money being used to a extent being taken to help aid those really in need. But if you are able to but not willing to work for what ever you need not just want then you shouldn't even be able to eat not to mention have 8 kids for crying out loud. O and I also give every month to United Way. Please don't say I don't care. I forgot to mention I help give to ppl who ask for help, food, money when I am out in the field also.

 

[bertmoog]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Everyone in America is now a socialist by definition.

In the sense of the bailout you could not be more correct. Thank you.

George Bush nationalized the banking industry.

Why does everyone think that George Bush is all-powerful and is not accountable. Once again, I cite: http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8819
News Flash: More liberals voted for the bailout than conservatives.

Get over it.

Get over what exactly?

\\\\"I don't care what you call Obama, I think he can unwind the economic mess we're in - so he's got my vote.\\\\"

Well if your son thinks he can, I think he can. In fact I dont know why I posted this thread anymore.

 

[Hollow]

I don't think you are. He NEVER said that he wants to tax everyone so that he can pay reparations to Black people .
He didn't say, imply it, or suggest at it.

I don't know what he said and don't care. But if that is what he really wanted to do anyways do you think he is going to tell you? lol. Truth be known you can't and never will be able to trust any of them. (Them being politicians)It is like trying to vote which snake you want to bite you in the ass. I hope I don't pick the one that is the most venomous.

 

[Steph]

As a Canadian, I'm not going to get into this, but with everyone saying that they have a crap choice and don't want either and are voting for the lesser of 2 evils, I am reminded of this.....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSMBfoMVHk"]YouTube - Sue's famous Rat and Snake speech[/ame]

 

[Hollow]

The truth is Obama is going to win. Does truth really hurt?

No it doesn't hurt me. I don't care either way. But I do wonder how do you know this? Make sure the media doesn't have YOU fooled.

 

[bertmoog]

To all the \"Free Marketers\" and the \"Anti-Socialists\" and \"No Government Regulations\" types, I have one question:

After 28 years of having gotten virtually everything the \"Trickle Down Economics Philosophy\" espoused, Tax Cuts for the Wealthiest (cause they are the most productive and shouldn't be punished)

Yeah, heres the tax brackets and percentages:
10%: from $0 to $8,025
15%: from $8,026 to $32,550
25%: from $32,551 to $78,850
28%: from $78,851 to $164,550
33%: from $164,551 to $357,700
35%: $357,701 and above
Im no accountant but it looks like the wealthy typically pay more. I have been wrong before and maybe someone on here can correct if I am. Oh yeah, and that 10% number did not exist before Bush.

Merger Mania (cause competition loves fewer companies)

Here we go jumping to conclusions again. Capitalism for those of you who do not know, is NOT the absence of government. There are monopoly laws in place and they are good.

globalization of the labor markets (cause lower wages are good for the middleclass and America) (I wonder why they don't out-source Executives?), and no government regulation or oversight (cause the free hand of the market will make everything wonderful like magic)

I do appreciate your sarcasm, very witty! I agree with you that this is one of the most damning things to our country. Perhaps its not that there is no government oversight but merely they are paid handsomely to look the other direction. Oh and Im pretty sure that China doesnt have the sort of job hating labor unions that we have over here. Oh and I almost forgot, they probably dont have to pay a stupid amount of co tax on each of their employees like they do for every citizen of the US that they employ. You think that might be it?

Oh, that's right, its those godless socialists and damn liberals!

Very nice! :thumbup:

 

[Hollow]

um that says specimen.... i said your $20 not a pic off of google.... and i didnt say either way....

:rof:..................................................................

 

[nimzotech]

I appreciate your candor, I for one do not have high hopes that McCain will win, nor do I necessarily want him to. But I absolutely do not wish for Obama to win which is exactly why I posted this thread. I'm curious, why do you dislike \"McCain's Administration\"?

Careful, I never stated "I dislike McCain's Administration". Look at the historical records; "W" is appointed president with a nice cushy $145-billion national surplus. Few months later it's gone. Now, eight years later look at the astronomically large U.S. deficit we're in. On top of that a $750-billion bailout, which even the GOP was against passed. It's time for a change. Both Gore and Kerry should have won the election years ago. All in all, I don't think my life will be affected drastically regardless who the president is. I can safely say that Obama is generally more accepted not just in the U.S. but world wide.

Cheers.

 

[Hollow]

nizmotech, is this like \"neener-neener\" to you or something?



My post seemed to indicate that I had a stong opinion on the matter (health care). I don't. I don't feel that I know enough about it to have a strong opinion. Anything I argued would be largely unfounded. It just scares me a little bit that a major illness could completely change my families life because of $$$$.

I know what you mean. I remember when I was real young my grand parents had a good life. They weren't rich or wealthy but they did what they were suppose to with what they earned. Oneday my grandfarther had a massive heart attack following 6 others, 7 strokes, heart by pass, had a dephibilator put in, then a heart transplant, then my grand mother passed out in a car, had a crash, now is confined to a wheel chair, and my grandfarther a couple of years back past away. I watched it since I was young go down hill for them and very hard to do or afford anything because of the medical bills. I know what you mean.

 

[Hollow]

hi there

I live in Canada (please don't hate me) and my province (ie state) is British Columbia.
Our national government is Conservative (just re-elected for the 2nd time to a minority government). My provincial government is also conservative (although they're not called that. I can't tell you what they called b/c you'd freak and call me a lying liar!).

I probably pay a bit more in taxes than you folks south of my border. But I get all of it back. We have SOCIALIZED medicare up here. Everybody gets medical care up here - OMG! poor people, middle class and rich people all get health care. We all buy in.

Now here's my twist - my daughter is pretty disabled, spina bifida t10 and she gets everything. All of her meds (including her growth hormone at $1000/mo) paid for. Wheelchairs, standing frames, respite care, wipes, needles, diapers, etc - all of it. Very little cost to our family.

All of the taxes I pay, I'm sure I get it all back. Up until a month ago my annual wage was $130 G USD (it's around 100 now with the dollar being depreciated, yay economy).
But if everybody buys in, stuff gets cheaper.

I know you guys have a bunch of wars to fight because you're protecting the world and everything, but maybe banding together and helping people in your own country isn't a bad thing.

:bow://////////////////////////////

 

[Hollow]

Well if I want to see alot of post on my threads I now know what to mention in it. lol