Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[FinalImpact]

Nope; no pic.
But I have this;

Notice white paint on the E for Exhaust.


Notice bolt positioning. I have a degree wheel on the crank checking TDC.

 

[bigborer]

Thanks for the pic. I thought that white paint was done by the previous owner.

Now I'm even more sure that I reinstalled the cams correctly...

 

[FinalImpact]

Tdc, gear marks 180 apart, produce a picture of cylinder #1 cam lobes!

Confirm cam angle / bolt position looks like so!

 

[bigborer]

It does (it's the upper pic). "I" to the far left and "E" to far the right

 

[FinalImpact]

My bad. Gears are the same. The bolts will be the same position if installed right or wrong.

It is however a 4 cycle engine. Cylinder ONE VALVES MUST BE CLOSED! Repeating myself but take a pic of cylinder #1 cam lobes. They should be pointed up and away from each other. IIRC in a V configuration!

The picture above does not show any cam lobe positioning.


This isn't mine but I think it is set to TDC #1 firing...

 

[bigborer]

Here are the pictures. Only screwed in the first cap before taking the picture so all lobes can be clearly seen.

Noticed one more thing- the intake has "IN" written on it and exhaust the "EX".

The cams were positioned like this every single time I tired to fit them.

 

[FinalImpact]

Someone suggested getting all the pistons halfway down.
I second that.
Now find something that won't damage the head and push each of the valves down. Something must be off with one or more of them.

 

[bigborer]

Did some more checking-

Firstly I put the crank at TDC and the cams 180 degress apart (both marks facing on the inside)- that's the same position as if I started right and went 360 on the crank. SAME binding spot.

Looked through the ports and at the binding point all valves are up (apart from the ones where the cam lobes are down), and also all the pistons are almost half way down, so even if one valve was 1-2mm out it'd be impossible for it to stop a piston.

Then, I removed the intake cam and managed to rotate the exhaust cam past the binding point.

Now, this only leaves one thing- the intake cam. As I mentioned, at the binding point the intake cam has the lobes from #2 starting to push in the buckets.

Now find something that won't damage the head and push each of the valves down. Something must be off with one or more of them.

That's probably the only thing left- anyone got any ideas what to use for this? I've tried tapping in with a screwdriver and rubber mallet (with the screwdriver handle on the valve side) but it didn't get to any conclusive result...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Did some more checking-

Firstly I put the crank at TDC and the cams 180 degress apart (both marks facing on the inside)- that's the same position as if I started right and went 360 on the crank. SAME binding spot.

Looked through the ports and at the binding point all valves are up (apart from the ones where the cam lobes are down), and also all the pistons are almost half way down, so even if one valve was 1-2mm out it'd be impossible for it to stop a piston.

Then, I removed the intake cam and managed to rotate the exhaust cam past the binding point.

Now, this only leaves one thing- the intake cam. As I mentioned, at the binding point the intake cam has the lobes from #2 starting to push in the buckets.


That's probably the only thing left- anyone got any ideas what to use for this? I've tried tapping in with a screwdriver and rubber mallet (with the screwdriver handle on the valve side) but it didn't get to any conclusive result...

So, long story short, the intake cam is binding up by itself, not hooked up to anything, correct?

To confirm THAT cylinder has bent valves, set and lock the crank at TDC, ("lock" the crank from turning).
Get those valves (for that cylinder) closed.

Perform a leak down test to that cylinder. Should the valves be bent, they won't seat and you'll get mucho air flowing back thru THAT THROTTLE BODY (confirming their NOT seated / bent / binding)

 

[bigborer]

So, long story short, the intake cam is binding up by itself, not hooked up to anything, correct?

Most likely, yes. But didn't manage to spin the intake cam by itself- it required a lot of force and I was afraid I might put too much force in places that weren't design to take that much force. But since by themselves the exhaust cam spins freely and the crank spins freely, I'm thinking that the intake is all there's left.

What do you think if I used an overhead valve press like this? If I managed to freely move and rotate the intake valves by hand, that should also tell if they are still straight.

View attachment 69524

I might have one delivered in 2-3 days, while a leak down tester would be much harder to find. I might try to build one myself, but getting the parts for that won't be too quick either...

 

[FinalImpact]

At full valve lift the pressure is not all that much. Frankly you should be able to push each halfway open with your thumb.

Grab a round dowel of wood close to the bucket size then maybe push that stem down with a plastic hammer handle or ????
Movement is what 0.30" , so any that don't budge from moderate pressure are suspect.


How was the head cleaned? It wasn't pressure washed or anything was it?

A bit a muscle should get movement. If not, something is wrong.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Most likely, yes. But didn't manage to spin the intake cam by itself- it required a lot of force and I was afraid I might put too much force in places that weren't design to take that much force. But since by themselves the exhaust cam spins freely and the crank spins freely, I'm thinking that the intake is all there's left.

What do you think if I used an overhead valve press like this? If I managed to freely move and rotate the intake valves by hand, that should also tell if they are still straight.

View attachment 69524

QUOTE]

Alreaty, got it narrowed down... The cam itself it not the issue. The valves that it's pressing on IS...

At this point, it's a no brainer, valves are jammed / bent, etc. They should move easily just like the others..

The valves bend at the surface/ "working end", the stem(from the piston interference. That goes way up in the head isn't bent. Should you push the valve off the seat-into the combustion chamber, it WILL ROTATE, again, the stem up thru the head ISN'T bent..

The head has to come off.. The more force you do to it, you may need guides, etc. Hopefully there's no damage to the piston (likely not as the engine wasn't running) and just the valves.


You could rig up compressed air into that spark plug hole and listen to air come out that cylinder (intake side), which just confirms valves are not closing fully. We already know that with the engine locking up while spinning over.

Glad it's narrowed down, sorry for the bad news...

 

[bigborer]

At full valve lift the pressure is not all that much. Frankly you should be able to push each halfway open with your thumb.

Grab a round dowel of wood close to the bucket size then maybe push that stem down with a plastic hammer handle or ????
Movement is what 0.30" , so any that don't budge from moderate pressure are suspect.


How was the head cleaned? It wasn't pressure washed or anything was it?

A bit a muscle should get movement. If not, something is wrong.

I can't press any of the intake valves by thumb. I did try to tap them in a bit with a rubber mallet but that didn't help draw any conclusions- the issue is in the last 1/3 of insertion, the first 1/3 seems to go in as it should.

The head was cleaned using air, a toothbrush and various solvents.

Alreaty, got it narrowed down... The cam itself it not the issue. The valves that it's pressing on IS...

At this point, it's a no brainer, valves are jammed / bent, etc. They should move easily just like the others..

The valves bend at the surface/ "working end", the stem(from the piston interference. That goes way up in the head isn't bent. Should you push the valve off the seat-into the combustion chamber, it WILL ROTATE, again, the stem up thru the head ISN'T bent..

The head has to come off.. The more force you do to it, you may need guides, etc. Hopefully there's no damage to the piston (likely not as the engine wasn't running) and just the valves.


You could rig up compressed air into that spark plug hole and listen to air come out that cylinder (intake side), which just confirms valves are not closing fully. We already know that with the engine locking up while spinning over.

Glad it's narrowed down, sorry for the bad news...

I understand, but what if after using the overhead press I removed the cotters, then let the valve get down inside the bloc a bit (while being careful not to fully drop it), and then rotated it. Doing this at various depths should indicate the stem roundness at various points on the stem, from bottom to top.

Now I'm hoping that it's something silly such as one inner spring sitting crooked or something. Because the other possibility (bent valve jamming in the guide) likely implies a damaged guide. And a damaged guide isn't something one could just replace after Sunday breakfast- it requires heating to a certain temperature + a remover tool + a installation tool + possibly a reamer; most likely it'd be easier to just get another head.

I really thought that all there was left to do was to check the clearances, screw the top cover and then I could put the engine inside the frame. But I should have known- after all the work and trouble... it would have been too good to be true, to just finish this so easily...

 

[FinalImpact]

Let's recap:
If the stem was bent at the head the valve would not seat and it would have a bunch of extra clearance. It may also hit the piston but with the cams out, the crank turns 360° no problem. All true, yes?

But what we have here is different. It begins to move off the seat and stops.

My guess is you somehow dropped a shim or something into the bucket and its preventing the valve from being able to be fully depressed. That is why it comes to such a hard stop with zero give.

With the cam out, remove all the intake buckets and look for anything abnormal. Did this also get new valve stem seals? Any chance one is not seated all the way? Something is preventing it from moving, coil bind (stack), seal not seated, something on the top of the head, not the bottom.

Isolate which valve it is by pressing on them (use cam free of chain if thats what it takes), bring that piston to TDC and use a tool to remove the keeper.

There is an old technique of placing the piston at BTDC and insert a small rope into that cylinder and then rotate crank until it pins the valves. Using this method there is no risk of damage or dropping the valve.

But first pull all the buckets and inspect as I don't think you have a bent valve as the problem is isolated to the head and its not that the valve won't close, it's that it won't open. This doesn't jive with the valves head being bent and it would take a lot of effort to bend the stem at the keeper side.

 

[bigborer]

I did pull out the buckets and nothing seems abnormal. First thing that came to my thought was that a shim got tilted and was raising the bucket a bit, leading to binding, but this wasn't the case.

Yes, I did install new valve seals. I assembled the head around 2 months ago but I remember that I double checked and all seals seemed fully seated.

Until the tool arrives I'll try to find a longer needle or something to probe around the outside of the intake springs.

 

[FinalImpact]

And you confirmed all of the keepers (locks) are present, accounted for as well as seated correctly?

I think I would get a long wood dowel and press on each one until you find the culprit. Maybe slip a large socket over the end of the dowel to increase the surface area and lean into it.

 

[bigborer]

As much as I can tell by looking from above yes, they seem to be in the right places. And no extra or missing parts

If my estimations are correct (knowing the free length, installed length and installed force, as they are specified in the manual) it'd take around 33kgf to fully push in an intake valve on this engine- I could easily push that hard if I grabbed on something such as a bar or handle. But- the only tool I could find that was the size of a bucket was the handle of a screwdriver. Keep in mind that I'm doing this on the floor while with the other hand I'm holding on the engine case not to slip or rotate (don't have an engine stand, not even a sturdy work bench)- so if anything slips, I'll stab myself in the stomach with the screwdriver tip. Few months ago I've been every day for 10 days visiting someone at a gastrointestinal section of a hospital- while they do have one quite hot lady resident doctor and a few other... appealing... female staff, I really don't want to see that place again anytime soon.

I've ordered an overhead valve press which should arrive this week.

 

[bigborer]

So... after what's been described as (quoting the sales rep) "a error that made your order to be taken off the workflow thus leading to delays" I finally received the overhead valve press. As expected, the press end was too wide for a bike head but luckily it had a M12 thread- same as the press end I initially got for the "regular" press.

Turns out the spring from valve no1 was binding at about 75% compression. So couldn't take that valve off but managed to take the other valve off and guess what... turns out I had done what the internet refers to as "going full retard".

I had all the parts for each valve labeled (1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 2-2, etc) inside the slots of 2 different screw organizer boxes. So while each valve theoretically went into it's position original (first valve- cyl 1 pos 1, second valve cyl 1 pos 2, and so on), I somehow managed to mix up the "intake box" with the "exhaust box". Specs say they have almost identical stem diameters (3.975–3.990 vs 3.960–3.975) so it's unlikely that anything got damaged. I will however rotate each valve inside it's guide at various points to recheck the stem roundness.

Good news is that I managed to find a head gasket for around 70€ (~$80) incl shipping and no customs and no taxes (it's from the EU).

So now, if I just swap each intake valve with it's corresponding exhaust valve, and retorque with the new gasket everything "should" work.

But thanks to everyone who contributed with replies and sorry for wasting your time

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Stuff happens, glad you found it!

I don't remember (LONG thread), you pulling valves from the head...

Once the valves are installed, you may want to (before the head is installed) again, push down on the valves, check for binding, etc.

Anyway, please update as you progress!

 

[bigborer]

After taking the head apart I think I figured out what I did- I did put the valves in the right places, but then I put everything else (springs, seats, buckets, keepers) swapped.

So the reason it was binding at that point was that as the exhaust springs were in the intake valves while the intake valves are bit shorter and the exhaust springs are a bit longer, it made the spring coils bind. Probably most of the valves had a bit more clearance, so that's why not all of them got the coils binding.

Turns out, it wasn't the greatest idea to assemble the head late at night after a full day of work.

DON'T FORCE ANYTHING. You probably just bent a valve forcing it

Turns out you were right .

While forcing a bit, the keepers in some valves got really pushed down the upper spring seat.

Now, when removing them, I tried to tap, tried pick the keepers a bit but with no avail- the only thing left to do was to force the valve press. And by force I mean using at least 3x more force than what these valves usually require.

So now I got 2 intake valves that got a bit bent, and one exhaust valve that's very slightly bent. I'll be replacing all 3.
Just ordered them on ebay- they should be off an FZ6 engine with only 7500mi. I'm not the biggest fan of second hand engine parts, but these cost me less than half of new ones and theoretically they should be at least better than any of the other existing valves on my bike. If they have ANY bends or marks I'll ask for a refund.

One more thing- I've discovered that there is a bit of cross threading in the upper engine mounts. Most likely this happened when the previous owner installed the frame crash pads. Therefore I've also ordered a set of M10 * 1.25mm thread tap and die.