FZ6: Fuel / ignition - Running Problem (won't rev)

[Mkii]

You posted your battery is as low as 50% discharged STATIC, unknown the CRANKING voltage, however you don't seem to want to addresss it.

It NEEDS to be FULLY CHARGED and LOAD TESTED to rule it out. Any auto parts store/ Walmart, etc, can check it.

IMO, until thats done, and ruled out, your chasing ghosts...

Good luck...

i don't know what to trust tbh.

My volt instrument says 13.3V but when i start the bike in diagnostic mode it says 12.5V. and this is simultaneously. so what to trust?
it drops to about 9.5-10 volt when i try to start it and it's fully charged.

but i'm gonna test by connecting a fully charged car battery to it. just waiting for it to be charged.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

i don't know what to trust tbh.

My volt instrument says 13.3V but when i start the bike in diagnostic mode it says 12.5V. and this is simultaneously. so what to trust?
it drops to about 9.5-10 volt when i try to start it and it's fully charged.

but i'm gonna test by connecting a fully charged car battery to it. just waiting for it to be charged.

Ok, that's what I was waiting for, thank you. (9.5-10 volts is pretty low but not a deal breaker). Going straight to the battery or the VR will give you the most accurate #'s

My battery is on its last legs but still works (I have a new one waiting for fill, charge and install once this one is toast).

With that said, If I check at the VR, I get 14.1 volts max (higher RPM's). At the battery, max about 13,8 13.9 volts. Its seems, in my case, with the battery failing, it just DOESN'T accept a full CHARGE/nor show it.

I would check at the battery itself and while revving it to say 3-4,000 RPM's, see what the voltage is at both the battery and VR. You should see close to 14 volts..

If its staying below 13 volts @ 4-5,000 RPM's, you have charging issues, potentially a bad battery. That will affect all your systems including the fuel injection..

I mentioned jumping the battery and see if it keeps running as the bike will NOW be running off that second battery (should the charging system NOT BE WORKING as it should..

Just rule out the charging system and go from there. From your first video, I could hear it cranking over MUCH slower than it should. The starter is pulling current from the rest of the system.

 

[FinalImpact]

i don't know what to trust tbh.

My volt instrument says 13.3V but when i start the bike in diagnostic mode it says 12.5V. and this is simultaneously. so what to trust?
it drops to about 9.5-10 volt when i try to start it and it's fully charged.

but i'm gonna test by connecting a fully charged car battery to it. just waiting for it to be charged.

Both - The ECM is regulating its internal supply to the items it has control over!

As said, 9.5v - 10 while cranking is not deal breaker. Next time its fired up on its OWN battery, switch you meter to AC VOLTS and make certain the output from the regulator shows LESS THAN < 1.0 VAC

FWIW and to my surprise my 08 with its 08 battery shows 1V of AC at 6000 RPM. IMO this doesn't seem proper but.. .. ..

Scott, care to check yours, Idle, 2500 and 6000.

If in your shoes and adding fuel to the TB DOE NOT allow it to rev, well I'd be looking very closely at ALL electrical connections! Like the leads to the coils, kill switch, ECM, but my suspicion says, if the charging system is OK, your ECM may have crapped. But lets not jump to conclusions until you verify the following:

• AC voltage at RR <1.0 VAC
• Grounds to ECM intact. Measure them....
• Power to coils (think kill switch) has near battery voltage
• Connector into ECM is corrosion free. Disconnect Batt, remove the 40 pin plug and inspect it.

Also - have you verified the plug wells are not full of water, oil or any other contaminants? And what do the plug look like? How old are they? If inspected at this point they should be WET if the ignition is the cause of failure. To which - they should be replaced! Can you show us a picture please!

Of course a quick down and dirty option is to heat the base threads with a propane torch to roughly 350°F very slowly and let them cool. It will cook the gas off the porcelain. If they start smoking, that means there is something there to burn off.​

They should have a color about like this:

 

[Mkii]

Both - The ECM is regulating its internal supply to the items it has control over!

As said, 9.5v - 10 while cranking is not deal breaker. Next time its fired up on its OWN battery, switch you meter to AC VOLTS and make certain the output from the regulator shows LESS THAN < 1.0 VAC

FWIW and to my surprise my 08 with its 08 battery shows 1V of AC at 6000 RPM. IMO this doesn't seem proper but.. .. ..

Scott, care to check yours, Idle, 2500 and 6000.

If in your shoes and adding fuel to the TB DOE NOT allow it to rev, well I'd be looking very closely at ALL electrical connections! Like the leads to the coils, kill switch, ECM, but my suspicion says, if the charging system is OK, your ECM may have crapped. But lets not jump to conclusions until you verify the following:

• AC voltage at RR <1.0 VAC
• Grounds to ECM intact. Measure them....
• Power to coils (think kill switch) has near battery voltage
• Connector into ECM is corrosion free. Disconnect Batt, remove the 40 pin plug and inspect it.

Also - have you verified the plug wells are not full of water, oil or any other contaminants? And what do the plug look like? How old are they? If inspected at this point they should be WET if the ignition is the cause of failure. To which - they should be replaced! Can you show us a picture please!

Of course a quick down and dirty option is to heat the base threads with a propane torch to roughly 350°F very slowly and let them cool. It will cook the gas off the porcelain. If they start smoking, that means there is something there to burn off.​

They should have a color about like this:

i will try to check it all. but the problem is i can't rev above 1200rpm atm. so it's not possible to check for any higher rpms. when i added fuel to the TB ( i suppose it's still in the tb when i add it via the air intake (separately to each 4 "intakes" after the air filter) i was able to rev it to about 1800rpms (or well it idled to 1800 at least for some time, then same story.)

Is it any idea to take of the Fuel rail and check for stuff stuck in it? or is it just a waste of time?

Edit: My spark plugs looks like urs, maybe a bit nicer at the part bolt/screw area (please correct me on that because i'm not sure what the part you screw in is named in english). but anyhow. less or more the same look.

I will try to attach some pictures from my phone. i took some pics 2 days ago when i checked it. just give me some time and i'll try and submit it

 

[FinalImpact]

Guys i was thinking.
the ignition and spark seems okay but is it possible that some sort of junk from the fuel pump (sediment or whatever) can have been stuck inside the fuel rail?
Does anyone know a good and none destructive way to dismount it and check it?

Yes, I've had it off. And the injectors can be back flushed. You'll need an air compressor and a some test leads. The injectors are 12VDC. The ECM just controls how long they stay open.
- Connect a hose to the outlet of the injector, connect this to an air supply with no more the 45 PSI and some kind of air valve (shut off).
- Connect test leads to injector terminals and battery
- Apply air pressure to injector

- BE WARNED - there is a filter on the inlet. Blowing the filter across the yard is a bad idea. Cover the end 100% with a large cloth to contain fuel mist and filter.

*** BUT *** if the SPARK PLUGS are DRY, and ADDING fuel (See my previous posts) did not change the condition, I don't think this is your problem!

You will need a Japanese Phillips tip OR YOU WILL HATE YOURSELF!!!
JIS B 1012

The JIS B 1012 is commonly found in Japanese equipment. It looks like a Phillips screw, but is designed not to come out and will, therefore, be damaged by a Phillips screwdriver if it is too tight. Heads are usually identifiable by a single dot or an "X" to one side of the cross slot.[9]

Specific "JIS" standardized cruciform-blade screwdrivers are available for this type of screw.​

Question: is the inside of your tank rusty? has the bike ever sat for 6mo without being ridden?

 

[Mkii]

Yes, I've had it off. And the injectors can be back flushed. You'll need an air compressor and a some test leads. The injectors are 12VDC. The ECM just controls how long they stay open.
- Connect a hose to the outlet of the injector, connect this to an air supply with no more the 45 PSI and some kind of air valve (shut off).
- Connect test leads to injector terminals and battery
- Apply air pressure to injector

- BE WARNED - there is a filter on the inlet. Blowing the filter across the yard is a bad idea. Cover the end 100% with a large cloth to contain fuel mist and filter.

*** BUT *** if the SPARK PLUGS are DRY, and ADDING fuel (See my previous posts) did not change the condition, I don't think this is your problem!

You will need a Japanese Phillips tip OR YOU WILL HATE YOURSELF!!!
JIS B 1012

The JIS B 1012 is commonly found in Japanese equipment. It looks like a Phillips screw, but is designed not to come out and will, therefore, be damaged by a Phillips screwdriver if it is too tight. Heads are usually identifiable by a single dot or an "X" to one side of the cross slot.[9]

Specific "JIS" standardized cruciform-blade screwdrivers are available for this type of screw.​

Question: is the inside of your tank rusty? has the bike ever sat for 6mo without being ridden?

Thank, i'm still gonna Check the spark plugs, "you never know".

well. the bike have been sitting for Years before i bought it i think. i bought it 2013 and it only had 2540km on it (some 1.5-2k miles?) so that's quiet "very low" milage for a 7 year old bike at that time. so i'm expecting its been for long times. anyhow i've been riding it for 2 seasons now, and been running it for about 7500km in total, i store it in an "hot" garage during the winter and fire it up for some 30-60mins (just idle and give it some gas then and then, well psychologically fun for me :cheer: )

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

When you would park it for lenths of time, did you have a fuel stabilizer in it?

If your getting a rise in RPM's spraying in fuel/starter fluid, its obviously not getting additional fuel.

Sounds as if, on initial key turn on, your fuel pump IS pressurizing the fuel rail. The engine fuel injection nozzels operate (at idle) until fuel pressure is gone for a very short period of time.

Do you have any visable rust inside the fuel tank (try to look at the sides)?

 

[Mkii]

When you would park it for lenths of time, did you have a fuel stabilizer in it?

If your getting a rise in RPM's spraying in fuel/starter fluid, its obviously not getting additional fuel.

Sounds as if, on initial key turn on, your fuel pump IS pressurizing the fuel rail. The engine fuel injection nozzels operate (at idle) until fuel pressure is gone for a very short period of time.

Do you have any visable rust inside the fuel tank (try to look at the sides)?

*I have Progress! please stay tuned for youtube video to upload! :thumb up:
*I had no rust in my fuel tank when i checked the fuel pump (well, i just took it out looked at it and gave up and inserted it again. but no rust what i could see)

* Video with me talking to you guys!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKp27nhGiaU&feature=youtu.be

I just measured my Fuel pressure (from the Fuel tank.).
i connected the fuel hose from the fuel tank to an tire pressure measure-tool (manometer?). when the bike was turned off it shown 0.7bar when i turn the ignition on it rise to 1.5bar, when i hit the start button it drop to 1.2bar. (ofc i think the drop is due to lack of Volts because i'm trying to start the bike without having fuel hose connected to the fuel rail.

Anyways: Is this normal pressure when the fuel pump starts or is it an sign for it's broken?. since the manual says 2.5bar at the fuel rail. but i don't know how the pressure behave when the bike is turned off and not connected to the fuel rail

 

[FinalImpact]

If the pump itself will fill liter container in 12sec (just a guess) then the pump is likely fine but the assembly needs removed to clear debris from the pressure regulator.

You found the issue if that gauge is even close to correct as it only has half the pressure needed.
Empty the tank and remove the pump assembly. Remove the PR. Go to this thread and start reading at fuel pump troubleshooting.
http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579362

This likely has something stuck in the seat making a permanent leak which limits fuel pressure and keeps your bike from running.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yep, with battery jumped, you should have full voltage to everything.

In the shop manual, it shows how to check the pressure off the fuel rail. If you not getting full pressure to there, and maintaining it once its running.

While the fuel pump is out, check the filter for any debris as well;



PM sent to OP...

 

[Mkii]

If the pump itself will fill liter container in 12sec (just a guess) then the pump is likely fine but the assembly needs removed to clear debris from the pressure regulator.

You found the issue if that gauge is even close to correct as it only has half the pressure needed.
Empty the tank and remove the pump assembly. Remove the PR. Go to this thread and start reading at fuel pump troubleshooting.
http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579362

This likely has something stuck in the seat making a permanent leak which limits fuel pressure and keeps your bike from running.

hey there u said something! the fuel is leaking in an constant stream when i disconnect the fuel hose. it's the same speed as if it was open (like old bikes with manual switch for turning on and off the fuel supply). Is it true to say : when the hose is disconnected then it should not be releasing it's fuel?

 

[FinalImpact]

If the pump itself will fill liter container in 12sec (just a guess) then the pump is likely fine but the assembly needs removed to clear debris from the pressure regulator.

You found the issue if that gauge is even close to correct as it only has half the pressure needed.
Empty the tank and remove the pump assembly. Remove the PR. Go to this thread and start reading at fuel pump troubleshooting.
http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579362

This likely has something stuck in the seat making a permanent leak which limits fuel pressure and keeps your bike from running.

I will add this, if the pump has sucked sediment and debris for extended periods, it loosens the fit between the rotor and the housing. If this is the case, the pump may not be able to obtain pressure. I'd certainly start with the PR. Its free and it pops out easily.

Here it is at the bottom:

As for shut off time. Purely based upon engine rotating. If its not, ecm times out the relay and the pump shuts off. The fact that its best effort is 1/2 of spec indicates an internal leak of some kind. Well unless its current is limited due to a bad connection.

 

[FinalImpact]

hey there u said something! the fuel is leaking in an constant stream when i disconnect the fuel hose. it's the same speed as if it was open (like old bikes with manual switch for turning on and off the fuel supply). Is it true to say : when the hose is disconnected then it should not be releasing it's fuel?

The whip from the tank has a check valve. If connected directly to the tank, no valve. So it will drain at gravity pace.

If while powered it drains AT THE SAME PACE AS GRAVITY, POWER IT DIRECTLY W 12V SUPPLY. If it increases in volume, its an electrical issue on the bike. If there is no change, the pump has issues. Disassemble the pump. Clean the strainer, check valve, and inspect the pump and wires.

 

[Mkii]

If the pump itself will fill liter container in 12sec (just a guess) then the pump is likely fine but the assembly needs removed to clear debris from the pressure regulator.

You found the issue if that gauge is even close to correct as it only has half the pressure needed.
Empty the tank and remove the pump assembly. Remove the PR. Go to this thread and start reading at fuel pump troubleshooting.
http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579362

This likely has something stuck in the seat making a permanent leak which limits fuel pressure and keeps your bike from running.

when i tried it, it was not even close to 1l in 12sec. it was maybe 1l in 1min or so when i emptied the tank. i'm gonna go right on the fuel pump now and search for malfunctions or other issues

 

[Mkii]

well some update then
*no rust in tank.
*was some debris on the filter. did clean and remove it all. (looks very nice now)
*Checked the pressure regulator. was able to blow air from one side (with my mouth) but wasn't able to blow the other way, so no leak?
*mounted everything again after cleaning

** Same results as before.

*Did not check Ohms since my tool is no where to be found atm.
*Should i conclude no further checking should be done on the pump area or is the ohms values of importance for my issue? :S

Best regars
mkII

 

[FinalImpact]

well some update then
*no rust in tank.
*was some debris on the filter. did clean and remove it all. (looks very nice now)
*Checked the pressure regulator. was able to blow air from one side (with my mouth) but wasn't able to blow the other way, so no leak?
*mounted everything again after cleaning

** Same results as before.

*Did not check Ohms since my tool is no where to be found atm.
*Should i conclude no further checking should be done on the pump area or is the ohms values of importance for my issue? :S

Best regars
mkII

You need to repeat the test!!!
Either set a pressure regulator to 32 psi (x.x bar and it holds/ then at 40 psi it should leak air) basically blow into the valve proving it holds or confirm the debris removed from the strainer allows it to flow the proper volume and pressure (36 psi)!
** Use something LESS FLAMMABLE THAN PETROL! like diesel. **

You must verify the pump meets pressure or there is NO point in installing it. Just submerge the pump in a pan with SPARK FREE SAFE CONNECTIONS! Then power it up and testbit for pressure & volume.

 

[Mkii]

You need to repeat the test!!!
Either set a pressure regulator to 32 psi (x.x bar and it holds/ then at 40 psi it should leak air) basically blow into the valve proving it holds or confirm the debris removed from the strainer allows it to flow the proper volume and pressure (36 psi)!
** Use something LESS FLAMMABLE THAN PETROL! like diesel. **

You must verify the pump meets pressure or there is NO point in installing it. Just submerge the pump in a pan with SPARK FREE SAFE CONNECTIONS! Then power it up and testbit for pressure & volume.

i did. and for sure it did leak when i used "high" pressure. maybe 3-4 bars? i'm not sure since i can't messure the absolute pressure that i apply to it. but it opened at least. now i just borrowed an R6 fuel pump (that was possible to use according to manual, i will just replace the pressure regulator)

 

[FinalImpact]

i did. and for sure it did leak when i used "high" pressure. maybe 3-4 bars? i'm not sure since i can't messure the absolute pressure that i apply to it. but it opened at least. now i just borrowed an R6 fuel pump (that was possible to use according to manual, i will just replace the pressure regulator)

The only thing you **can use** is the motor/pump itself. Cane you measure the actual length of the pump motor and its diameter, AND take some close up pictures of the inlet / outlet. Tks

Any issues getting it apart?

 

[Mkii]

The only thing you **can use** is the motor/pump itself. Cane you measure the actual length of the pump motor and its diameter, AND take some close up pictures of the inlet / outlet. Tks

Any issues getting it apart?

was at the scrapyard today and bought an r6 -03 (injection model) pump / unit. swapped the pump only since the pressure regulator was different so i only swapped the pump. anyhow. No different. the pump is now less noisy. it's more quiet than b4.

the pressure regulator seems to work just fine i think, it looks nice and opens only at quiet high pressure (maybe some 2++ bars).

Should i still be investigating pump system or move on to something else? like the computer?

 

[Mkii]

Problem Solved…

We took the whole unit from the R6 pump. then we took the "bottom part" from the fz6. we bored a hole in the R6 plastics so we could use the "old" pressure regulator. We also pushed the pressure regulator so we tightened the spring a bit.

Now it's running Very well.

Possible Problem:
The big thing (filter thing?) that you can't open. my FZ6 "filter thing" was very dark in color. the R6 "same thing" was more bright/ white-is.

Anyhow this things made my bike run like never b4. i think it's running even more smoother now :S

anyhow. i'm happy and thank you all for the help. it's been really worth it.

Cheers!!!
//
Jesper from sweden