Replacing r/r

Hey guys
My battery gave up on me today. I have a feeling it was the original, so replaced it (2006, bought by me this year).
Problem was, although it gave a nice 12.8V when off, it gave me 12.8V when running, even at 5000rpm.
Checked the cabling, then stator, then whipped the r/r off and tried a different one at my mate's yard. Ah-ha, that worked. I concluded the r/r was kaput, so fine I'll buy a new one.
He reckons that the shunt r/r that was in there will just give up again, and I'd be much better with a mosfet. I've sourced one from a Kawasaki ZX10R.

Just wondered if anyone else had gone with a mosfet?

I haven't and MOSFETs are popular as series type regulators for racing and I would imagine this is what your friend is talking about versus a shunt type regulator? If you're doing series type regulation you may have to change how the wiring is done so as to isolate and keep spiking from occurring. MOSFET refers to the solid state junction type and properties. RRs don't really wear out. They, like all solid state devices have a very long lifetime and are most likely to fail from mistreatment. If the bike has been jump started from a car with the engine running there is a good chance the RR has been damaged. Because it is a shunt regulator the car alternator has much too much current delivered to the bike's shunt RR which overheats it causing damage or failure.

I'm not sure that the shunt in the OEM is not MOSFET (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor) type technology.

I personally would stick with the OEM as I've heard of only a few failures and probably most were from mistreatment.

If I was to modify any RR I would figure out a way to cool it better.

If the ZX10 RR has higher wattage dissipation with the same wiring configuration I think that would be fine.

Been here since 2011 and have seen like 3 bikes with another RR used on them and although they "mostly" worked, all caused pain and suffering from other problems. One that comes to mind was the CEL lamp coming on above 8000 RPM.

Anyway - at the expense of possibly damaging the stator coils, I'd also opt for the OEM RR. Also - here are some threads on system operation if you need details.

**************************
CHARGING SYSTEM AND BATTERIES
http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579412
**************************
LEAKAGE CURRENT KILLING YOUR BATTERY??
http://www.600riders.com/forum/showpost.php?p=584217&postcount=10
**************************

I didn't look to see your location but I'd like to saw open a dead RR and see if there is a repair option. I know it looks potted but if we know what's inside, we stand a better chance of matching other components too.
Think about that... Tks

Well, two things spring up here.
One is that I can't believe anyone who has been around bikes thinks that regulator rectifiers have long shelf lives! Ever tried a Triumph?! They don't fail because of mistreatment, they fail because they are inherently inefficient. The beauty of a MOSFET is that it only uses the useful part of the phase so doesn't need to dissipate heat so much.

The more pertinent point for me is what r/r's have caused folk issues and why?

yourebarred said:

Well, two things spring up here.
One is that I can't believe anyone who has been around bikes thinks that regulator rectifiers have long shelf lives! Ever tried a Triumph?! They don't fail because of mistreatment, they fail because they are inherently inefficient. The beauty of a MOSFET is that it only uses the useful part of the phase so doesn't need to dissipate heat so much.

The more pertinent point for me is what r/r's have caused folk issues and why?

Click to expand...

Here's some good info on MOSFET and it's characteristics. Field effect is I think the key word. MOSFET - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When you refer to more useable part of the power phase I think the reference is related to series regulators. Most bikes today are shunt regulators. Can you series regulate a bike? Of course you can!

I have friends that I ride with that have Triumphs and their charging systems work just fine. Also I see little failure of the RR's on the FZ6. If you jump start a bike with a car and the engine is running you can damage and ruin a shunt RR because it is being abused. You can jump start your bike from a car but the car engine should be off.
There are far more people abusing RRs because of lack of experience/knowledge than there are engineers who design OEM RR's that last the life of the bike.

I wonder how many RR's get replaced unduly because of misdiagnosis, but cost the unwary bike owner. Are these RR's also figured into the statistical failure numbers?

I've personally owned 7 bikes and not one has had a regulator or stator failure. Batteries failures, yes!

To answer your question. I don't see many failed RRs on this forum and when they fail no one has an answer except of course what we do know about the current limitations and abuse. Can you build a more bullet proof RR? Sure!
I would say the majority of charging system failures seem to be the battery. We have members with bikes from 2004 and many, if not most, I'll bet, have the original RR.

The older a bike is the more likely it has had more batteries. This means there is a higher chance the bike has been jump started at some time from a running car.

If your battery is good and you have a healthy stator and connections, replacing your RR with the OEM should be good. If you want to build a better more bulletproof charging system, that's great!
Please share what you come up with.

I wasn't criticising, sorry.
The problem for me wasn't caused by jump starting from a running car, it was caused by a failed r/r. What caused it to fail? I don't know. Usually they fail because of a faulty connection causing heat buildup or because they're crap to start with. Remember those VFR's? A few bikes had them mounted in really hot places, like the Triumph Daytona. Glad you haven't had any fail mate, and glad to hear that in general the fz6 isn't known for it.

Anyhow, my original question was has anyone upgraded to MOSFET?

So, going back to your OP, the current RR is dead with no discernible output. Honestly there have been few that failed in this manor. Then the goal was to replace it with a different type due to the shunts failing.

Id highly recomend a deeper investigation about what does and does not do. The reason is this, it seems really odd that all the diodes of the rectifier opened at once. That said, gove it one more look and test for AC voltage from each stator winding.
My point is even if the shunt burned up, you should have DC output so I'm wondering if your stator is cooked open?

And no, sorrry. No help as i don't know of anyone converting the RR to other types successfully.

FinalImpact said:

So, going back to your OP, the current RR is dead with no discernible output. Honestly there have been few that failed in this manor. Then the goal was to replace it with a different type due to the shunts failing.

Id highly recomend a deeper investigation about what does and does not do. The reason is this, it seems really odd that all the diodes of the rectifier opened at once. That said, gove it one more look and test for AC voltage from each stator winding.
My point is even if the shunt burned up, you should have DC output so I'm wondering if your stator is cooked open?

And no, sorrry. No help as i don't know of anyone converting the RR to other types successfully.

Click to expand...

My main point was the claim that the RR's are not good to begin with or have less a life than other solid state components. There is no data to support that. Also remember the failures we see are the ones that get posted. No one posts that their RR is working fine and there are many bikes that run just fine.

Yes the Honda VFR did get a lot of notoriety for it's RR and people were fixing that with modified heat sinks and other alternatives etc. Again, I don't know how many VFRs operated successfully.
People continue to get out the rakes, hoes, and pitchforks at the drop of a hat with misinformation.

Remember that a component can fail at different states. The RR shunt may fail in a conducting state so the stator output is loaded and we'll have no charge. It may fail in an open state where we'll see over voltage.

I know you know this test FI but I'll post this link for future viewers. This is a basic diode test that works very well for determining RR health. You can have a RR with partial diodes working or even leaking diodes that will cause lower current from your charging system and/or a drain on the battery. If you do this test and you test the voltage with the bike running to see charging voltage, you'll be very close to knowing whether your RR is good or bad.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8EjV0IjW9Q"]Stock motorcycle regulator/rectifier check out - YouTube[/ame]

Motogiro said:

My main point was the claim that the RR's are not good to begin with or have less a life than other solid state components. There is no data to support that. Also remember the failures we see are the ones that get posted. No one posts that their RR is working fine and there are many bikes that run just fine.

Yes the Honda VFR did get a lot of notoriety for it's RR and people were fixing that with modified heat sinks and other alternatives etc. Again, I don't know how many VFRs operated successfully.
People continue to get out the rakes, hoes, and pitchforks at the drop of a hat with misinformation.

Remember that a component can fail at different states. The RR shunt may fail in a conducting state so the stator output is loaded and we'll have no charge. It may fail in an open state where we'll see over voltage.

I know you know this test FI but I'll post this link for future viewers. This is a basic diode test that works very well for determining RR health. You can have a RR with partial diodes working or even leaking diodes that will cause lower current from your charging system and/or a drain on the battery. If you do this test and you test the voltage with the bike running to see charging voltage, you'll be very close to knowing whether your RR is good or bad.
Stock motorcycle regulator/rectifier check out - YouTube

Click to expand...

+5 ^^

True - I made an assumption the shunt would **likely** burn open. As you mention, it could feasibly short also. I'm guessing it must have an internal fuseable link or something as that condition would raise hell! :spank:

Great Video I'm going to steal it and add to the diagnostic troubleshooting thread here.... http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...uel-pump-battery-charging-brake-bleeding.html

Lecture over I presume. I've fitted a MOSFET from a zx10r and all is good.

yourebarred said:

Lecture over I presume. I've fitted a MOSFET from a zx10r and all is good.

Click to expand...

Did you have to modify the pinouts? Was it Plug n Play? I can only assume it was also a shunt type regulator?

It required cutting the old connector off, and wiring to new r/r, so not plug and play. I think EasternBeaver.com sell some sexy connectors, but that will have to wait.
I spoke too soon.
The output voltage at 5000rpm was still just 14V.
I have a really annoying Acumen alarm the PO had installed, so after much cursing and splicing, that was binned. Very small increase.
I then removed the Bd43 headlight mod cable and finally got a decent voltage.
So, given that some people manage to run that mod, heated grips, an alarm and whatever else, I'm guessing the stator usually is strong enough?
So even though mine is functioning, maybe it isn't right?

yourebarred said:

It required cutting the old connector off, and wiring to new r/r, so not plug and play. I think EasternBeaver.com sell some sexy connectors, but that will have to wait.
I spoke too soon.
The output voltage at 5000rpm was still just 14V.
I have a really annoying Acumen alarm the PO had installed, so after much cursing and splicing, that was binned. Very small increase.
I then removed the Bd43 headlight mod cable and finally got a decent voltage.
So, given that some people manage to run that mod, heated grips, an alarm and whatever else, I'm guessing the stator usually is strong enough?
So even though mine is functioning, maybe it isn't right?

Click to expand...

14 volts is what it should be...

I have just the BD43 mod and get (coming out of the regulator) just over 14 volts @ 5K RPM's. At 1,100 or so RPM's (again with two headlights), I'm just slightly charging at about 13 volts..

Motogiro said:

I know you know this test FI but I'll post this link for future viewers. This is a basic diode test that works very well for determining RR health. You can have a RR with partial diodes working or even leaking diodes that will cause lower current from your charging system and/or a drain on the battery. If you do this test and you test the voltage with the bike running to see charging voltage, you'll be very close to knowing whether your RR is good or bad.

Click to expand...

Cliff, I saved it as well, VERY informative.

Question, (he didn't address for us non-electrical folks), what is the meter set on for this test?

TownsendsFJR1300 said:

Cliff, I saved it as well, VERY informative.

Question, (he didn't address for us non-electrical folks), what is the meter set on for this test?

Click to expand...

It's actually a resistance test. Low ohm scale is good. There should be a diode setting on your DVM and that's what he's putting his meter on in the video. It's usually that little diode emblem on your meter.

That says to me that the stator is something Yamaha have scrimped on. But of you're happily running that mod and happy with 14V then I'll run with that...

TownsendsFJR1300 said:

14 volts is what it should be...

I have just the BD43 mod and get (coming out of the regulator) just over 14 volts @ 5K RPM's. At 1,100 or so RPM's (again with two headlights), I'm just slightly charging at about 13 volts..

Click to expand...

Do you have the year and model RR and stator output specs? The little 600 is rated at 310 watts at 14.9v with a max output from the RR or 25Amps. Can you shed some light on the part installed?

PS bike to bike is VERY subjective due to battery depth of charge. A heavily sulfated battery can show a high voltage as it won't take a charge while a healthy battery in top off state can ALSO show a high voltage.

Because these topics only surface when the rider encounters an issue, a bulk of the batteries have already been compromised in some way.

Tks in advance!

FinalImpact said:

The little 600 is rated at 310 watts at 14.9v with a max output from the RR or 25Amps. Can you shed some light on the part installed?

!

Click to expand...

Is this incorrect or ? It shows 14 volts @ 5k..

TownsendsFJR1300 said:

Is this incorrect or ? It shows 14 volts @ 5k..

Click to expand...

Its a bit misleading as the Magneto outputs AC not DC.

The rectifier converts it to DC. It is the gating force as the Mag is capable of > 100 VAC. That said, I believe at MAX LOAD the reference implies occurs at 14V. Continue and look at the rest of the information --> 'Rectifier/regulator".....

AC magneto
Model/manufacturer: F5VX/MORIC
Stator coil resistance: 0.22–0.34 Ω at 20°C (68°F)
Standard output: 14.0V 310W 5000 r/min

Rectifier/regulator
Regulator type: Semi conductor-short circuit
Model/manufacturer: SH719AA/SHINDENGEN
No load regulated voltage: 14.1–14.9 V
Rectifier capacity: 25.0 A
Withstand voltage: 240.0 V

Remember this? PS - NOT implying all 25A go towards charing the battery as the bike uses some % to operate itself and the lighting.


<< PASTE >>
REMEMBER: CURRENT or AMPS is what charges a battery not volts. << END PASTE >>

That said I've seen mine at 14.5 on a fully topped battery. NOTICE the "NO LOAD" output? No load regulated voltage: 14.1–14.9 V It clamps at 14.9V.

FinalImpact said:

20°C (68°F)
Standard output: 14.0V 310W 5000 r/min

Rectifier/regulator
Regulator type: Semi conductor-short circuit
Model/manufacturer: SH719AA/SHINDENGEN
No load regulated voltage: 14.1–14.9 V
Rectifier capacity: 25.0 A
Withstand voltage: 240.0 V

Remember this? PS - NOT implying all 25A go towards charing the battery as the bike uses some % to operate itself and the lighting.

That said I've seen mine at 14.5 on a fully topped battery. NOTICE the "NO LOAD" output? No load regulated voltage: 14.1–14.9 V It clamps at 14.9V.

Click to expand...

No, I hadn't seen that before and really, how often will you see 14.5 volts at the battery? I gather the 14.9 spec is # to keep no more than(as a max figure), correct?

As you mentioned, if its charging, its running, and there is a load, always, lights, FI, pump, etc.