Slight subtle knocking on decel and rough running.

[Kaisersoze]

Vacuum is steady and stable and synced on all TB's (I put 1 a slightly lower at idle because it pulls more vacuum at 3,500 -4,000 RPMS than all other cylinders). Gonna probe them and let you know the result. I pulled the spark plugs and replaced the new ones with old and vice versa, they looked fine with proper gap.

Also, it IS affecting the bikes performance because the choppy-ness is throughout the power band and if i give it full throttle on highway or while moving it bogs down a little before finally recovering and delivering a good amount of power.

Again, cant thank you enough for the help. Learning as a go along here and the g/f is already pissed that we supposed to be on vacation and im working on bike .

From what you describe it sounds like the lash is excessive on one or more of the valves in cylinder #1. The exhaust valves are subject to intense heat and often change clearance before the intakes do as the intakes get a nice cool charge of furl/air during each valve opening.

So, with your scope, try to probe both sides of the head at the same locations. Chances are its louder near the exhaust.

What did the needles do on the new sync gauge? Stable and steady PLUS equally balanced among all 4 cyl?

This bothers you enough to notice it, investigate, and post, so it concerns you. From this I'd guess its time inspect the valves clearances. Do you have the service manual handy. Read it through and ask questions before you get the bike apart.

Lastly: title says "knocking". Is it fair to say we have deduced this to a sharp tapping sound and that it IS NOT currently affecting the bikes performance off idle? Or can you hear it miss at all ALL RPMs? Have pulled the spark plugs? If not, now is a good time to inspect them.

Did you listen to the injectors? Those make a tic and its nothing like the tap in the head. True?

 

[FinalImpact]

Because the compression check and the t/b sync were successful, I'd have to speculate that the tic is in the valves and its not affecting the performance (though I could be wrong).

What I have to wonder about is how you got it balance with a missfire and from that I don't have an answer! But I suspect you may have an ignition fault or even an injector fault or bad fuel.

So if it has a misfire which cyl is it, or is it all 4 of them? If its a single hole, a squirt bottle to the header at idle will show the hottest pipes evaporating the water fastest (meaning they have spark and fuel and are powering the engine). The cooler pipes will take longer to evap the water and these are misfiring.

Now if the misfire is among all cylinders and is random, they could all evap at the same rate. This condition makes me think the bike doesn't like the gas on board.

Two knew things to try:
Dump the gas and place fresh fuel in from another source (or ride it off).
Swap ignition coils and see if anything changes.

Unfortunately until you isolate the misfire to a single hole, swapping coils is of little value. Have you ran the engine in total darkness and looked for ignition arc-over from the coils, wires, and plug caps?

You might read the other active threads on ignition problems. You might gain some insight.

When is the last time it ran well? Could it be gas related? Could it have water in the gas? Have you ran injector cleaner in it?

 

[FinalImpact]

Vacuum is steady and stable and synced on all TB's (I put 1 a slightly lower at idle because it pulls more vacuum at 3,500 -4,000 RPMS than all other cylinders).

How much different was the vacuum on this cyl and which one was it?

 

[abraxas]

While the engine is idling, just touch the plug caps. You MAY feel a tapping if the piston is touching the spark plug.

Also, a "tapping" noise could be the spark earthing, check plugs caps.

Just throwing it out there, good luck.

 

[ohgood]

While the engine is idling, just touch the plug caps. You MAY feel a tapping if the piston is touching the spark plug.

Also, a "tapping" noise could be the spark earthing, check plugs caps.

Just throwing it out there, good luck.

+1 change the plugs again. there is a wire shorting.

also, when that teflon tape starts to let go you'll be 40 miles from home. do it right, retap the hole next size up. if you're not that handy, pay a machinist $30 and rest easy.

 

[Kaisersoze]

****UPDATE****

Hope everyone had a happy 4th. :rockon:


So the problem still continues:

Checked at night to see if any arcs from ignition system and there were none.
Pulled ignition coils/spark plugs/plug caps.
Checked resistance on everything and all were in spec.
Plug caps were 9.7k to 9.9k ohms. (10k is spec)
Secondary coils were 16k ohms. (12-18k okay from manual.)
and 2.3 ohms for primary coils.
Checked wires for kinks/shorts. None.


After putting her back together and startin' her up, the bike idled like **** and had a higher idle. (but i think thats because of the offset i did when syncing carbs and making cylinder 1 a little less than others because it was higher at 4,000RPM). After the bike got to temperature the idle settled down and the bike sounded a little better. The big difference was at higher RPMs where the bike sounded like it was breaking up a lot less. A couple of puffs of white smoke came out the exhaust but I am assuming thats the seafoam in the fuel working its way through injectors. So we may still be looking at bad fuel/ clogged injectors?

I had to tip the fuel tank to change plugs before this started so maybe I shook all the old junk in the tank into the fuel pump. Going to try and ride off the rest of the fuel and see what happens. I will keep you guys posted and thank you again for all the help.

**********************************
Edit:

Went for a ride up and down highway. The bike is performing better at speed, less bogged down than before above 4000rpm but a noticable deadspot between 5-6k rpms. However, rpms hover around 3000ish with clutch or neutral engaged and SLOWLY come down. This seems to be a new problem. Tried a little (gentle) engine braking to see how it would handle it and its rougher than before. Sputtered a lot the lower the rpms go down.

I dont know if this is still solely a fuel problem, and I am hesitant to keep running the bike like this for fear I will cause more internal damage.


Also, I accidentally seafoamed the AIS Hose from the airbox, would this cause any damage?

Any more advice?

To answer a couple questions from previous posts:

I put finger on plug cap and felt no tapping and saw no arcs at night.
When I pulled ignition coils a little rust built up on contacts so i cleaned with a little sandpaper and contact cleaner.

Thanks all for the helpful comments.

Because the compression check and the t/b sync were successful, I'd have to speculate that the tic is in the valves and its not affecting the performance (though I could be wrong).

What I have to wonder about is how you got it balance with a missfire and from that I don't have an answer! But I suspect you may have an ignition fault or even an injector fault or bad fuel.

So if it has a misfire which cyl is it, or is it all 4 of them? If its a single hole, a squirt bottle to the header at idle will show the hottest pipes evaporating the water fastest (meaning they have spark and fuel and are powering the engine). The cooler pipes will take longer to evap the water and these are misfiring.

Now if the misfire is among all cylinders and is random, they could all evap at the same rate. This condition makes me think the bike doesn't like the gas on board.

Two knew things to try:
Dump the gas and place fresh fuel in from another source (or ride it off).
Swap ignition coils and see if anything changes.

Unfortunately until you isolate the misfire to a single hole, swapping coils is of little value. Have you ran the engine in total darkness and looked for ignition arc-over from the coils, wires, and plug caps?

You might read the other active threads on ignition problems. You might gain some insight.

When is the last time it ran well? Could it be gas related? Could it have water in the gas? Have you ran injector cleaner in it?

 

[Kaisersoze]

I realized I cant fully describe what I hear in words so I'll throw the video up here.

You can hear the tapping pretty good at the 1 minute mark in first video.

Today I cleaned the fuel filter and cleaned out TB's and re synced them.

Thanks again for the advice all.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7AXUHSV4DI"]YouTube - Noise coming from my FZ6 (Part 1) [/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9q5VLaLT8Q"]YouTube - Noise coming from my FZ6 (Part 2) [/ame]

 

[Marthy]

Kind of hard to tell, there's a lot of noise. It doesn't sound like it run happy. Let it run for few min and check if all header pipe are hot about the same. Sound like a plug might have took $hit on you. I've seen new plug going wrong before...

If not... you might have reach the point where you bring it to the bike shop for an estimate... I'll cost you few bucks to know whats wrong with your ride. Then you can decide if you want to do it, or them to do it.

 

[scottsmith1972]

dont know if this will help i had a similar problem with my bike might be a loose connection somewhere i was about to take it in the shop when i checked plugs and coils and i lifted the tank and there was a loose spade connector plugged it back in and good as gold now

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

On post #19 you mention smelling fuel in the engine oil... The fuel will definitly thin the oil and needs to be replaced ASAP (with a fresh oil filter). That should help quiet down the top end/engine alone... It is pretty noisy compared to my 07. I didn't hear any misfire nor any bottom end noise, just a noisy top end valve train.

The video almost sounds like like little, to no oil getting to the top end, the thinned oil will contribute to this... I would replace with a thicker (inside spec's) oil.

Why the fuel is getting in the oil is another question... I'm wondering if the #1 injector is leaking fuel (when turned off) into the intake runner eventually leading into the cylinder, past the rings, into the engine oil.

Running more Seafoam or Chevron "Tectron" (works very well for cleaning the injectors/system) may help loosen / blow out any crap in the fuel system. After the oil is changed, I'd run it up some RPM's and close the throttle hopefully pulling out anything possibly stuck in the injector(s). (Injectors can be sent out and cleaned for a lot cheaper than a new one.)

As a PIA as it is, I think I'd remove the gas tank, dump all the fuel and blow out with an air compressor (or allow to evaporate). Blowing out is preferred so if there is any small debris in the tank, it'll get it out.

Something else not mentioned, I think I'd pull the timing chain cover and take a peek... If that chain is worn, tensioner not taught, the chain alone, if loose, will make a bunch of racket and resonate thru the engine...

Checking the valve clearances may also shed some light or eliminate some potential problems...

Good luck..

 

[scottsmith1972]

just a quick update when this happened to my bike i had a very strong smell of fuel and fuel consumption was terrible im sure it must be a loose wire somewhere

 

[FinalImpact]

Last couple of posts all good points.

A rough running engine will make allot of chain noise. Chains are meant to be pulled. A misfiring or poor running engine will not deliver even firing pulses to the crankshaft producing an even load to the camshaft. The result, the chain and tensioner most perform optimally to keep even chain tension. Even at best, the chain will be using its chain guides more and making more noise than an engine which runs smooth.

For me its hard to tell about the noise in the vid. It does sound louder than some but that's subjective as recording devices have different gain levels and some pick up on frequencies the ear doesn't hear and loose ones we should hear. Suffice it to say, the top end does make some noise.

IMO: granted gas can thin oil, it also evaporates as the engine comes up to temp. Well unless there is a large volume being introduced all the time. Weak rings or a misfiring plug will make the oil smell like gas quickly. On your's the comp test is good so that leaves ignition and injection. We need more info. . . .

 

[REO Scorpio]

I completely agree that it's tough to diagnose without actually being over the bike an comparing. To me, it sounds a lot like mine :

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFSfRIuuvac&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - ‪Fz6 Buzz‬‏[/ame]


I know there is another thread about ticking noise that has a couple of our vids that have similar noises. The dealers have told me that they all do it, the loudness is what varies to a large degree. I can't look back while typing this message, did it do this for the life of the bike or recently start?

Keep us update as you eliminate possible solutions.

Scorpio

 

[FinalImpact]

To Townsends point about a leaking injector I can only think of a few ways to determine that.

You need a high quality flow meter, to remove them, or to get a visual on them while in place. The later being way less painful but I'm not sure its possible????

Look here and you can see the fuel rail and the injectors. You can remove the fuel rail and pressurize the rail to see if they leak when off. That seems painful tho. It didn't take long to get the carbs and injectors off the bike in that thread but this may be a tad drastic at this point.
http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/37198-going-problem.html#post397619

So the best hope would be getting the plastic off from the air filter box, opening the throttle plates with the KEY ON and trying to look inside and see the injectors through the T/B to see if they drip while the system is under pressure.


What do the plugs look like? Can you get some pictures like these?
http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/38751-oil-plugs.html#post419050

I'm just throwing out ideas at this point. I know mine makes a ton of racket but it runs great and it has dino oil in it.

 

[lonesoldier84]

Subtle*

 

[FinalImpact]

Going back in time. . .

I urge you to purchase a helicoil kit before the next oil change. Personally I would never drill and over size the pan bolt. Helicoils are used in aluminum engines all the time. Its very accpetable to use one for the drain plug.

All you need is an electric drill and basic hand tools (cresent wrench/or sockets) to install it.

Or maybe ebay the lower pan unit. You might find a cheap one when you don't need it. The cost when you do need it is 5X when you don't. . . lol

 

[Kaisersoze]

First, let me apologize for the length of this post. Since the thread is kinda long I'll summarize everything for anyone newly reading this.

Bought bike about a month ago- 2006 FZ6 with 20,400 miles.

Problem: Performance loss/Engine breaking up at speed and idle/Hesitation when engine braking or decel

Things I did before problem started:

Lubed/ Adjusted Chain
Changed Oil (Amsoil 10w-40 full synthetic)
Changed Coolant
Changed Spark plugs
(All normal maintenance)

Bring it out for a ride and its happy as a clam until...

Problem Starts ->

What I have done so far to address it: (not necessarily in this order)

Reset ECU
Checked Compression on all Cylinders (220 Psi)
Swapped plugs with old ones. (Same Issue)
Checked gap on new plugs.
Seafoamed engine and fuel
Synced TB's
Checked vacuum on TB's (8.5 inHG)
Drained Tank and removed FP - Cleaned filter
Tank was clean internally.
Checked Spark plug caps/Wires/ and ignition coils (all proper resistances)
Checked bike at night (no arcs or sparks off chassis)

Thanks again to all who responded:

Marthy: I checked the pipes when warm with a spray off water and all evaporated. Going to start from cold engine to when it warms up to see if one headers takes longer to evaporate. I also called a shop and had the mechanic tell me to diagnose it myself because at 95 dollars an hour he said he could look at it all day and still not figure it out. (I am beginning to see what he meant!!)

REO Scorpio: Does your bike have any performance issues? It did sound similar to my bike.

lonesoldier84: :Flip: lol j.k I know my spelling is horrible. Thanks for the correction.

Scottsmith1972: Going to check the wiring diagram in manual and work my way from battery to ignition coils to ECU and make sure all the wires and connections are okay. Thanks for the suggestion.

TownsendsFJR1300: I realized that I smelt the fuel smell in the crankcase while the bike was just idling up. It might have been blow-by before the rings were hot enough to seal properly. Going to take her out for a bit and than sniff around. Also, checked the tank and it seemed pretty clean and im not too eager to take it off again LOL because it was a real PITA.

FinalImpact: Going to check the injectors with key ON and throttle open to see leaks. Thats a good idea, thanks. I'll try to take pictures of new and old plugs so as soon as possible. Its raining here so no working on it today. Also, I looked at a heli-coil kit and found one for 60.00 bucks, on ebay oil pan was 50.00. I hope helicoil kit doesnt put shavings into oil pan, do have to remove the whole pan to use it?

05 Yamaha FZ6 FZ600 OEM Oil Pan* | eBay

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Helicoil-5546-10-Metric-Coarse-Thread/dp/B0002SRF80/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1310164544&sr=8-10]Amazon.com: Helicoil 5546-10 M10 x 1.5 Metric Coarse Thread Repair Kit: Automotive[/ame]


Enjoy your weekends everyone. Ride safe.

 

[REO Scorpio]

First, let me apologize for the length of this post. Since the thread is kinda long I'll summarize everything for anyone newly reading this.

Bought bike about a month ago- 2006 FZ6 with 20,400 miles.

Problem: Performance loss/Engine breaking up at speed and idle/Hesitation when engine braking or decel

Things I did before problem started:

Lubed/ Adjusted Chain
Changed Oil (Amsoil 10w-40 full synthetic)
Changed Coolant
Changed Spark plugs
(All normal maintenance)

Bring it out for a ride and its happy as a clam until...

Problem Starts ->

What I have done so far to address it: (not necessarily in this order)

Reset ECU
Checked Compression on all Cylinders (220 Psi)
Swapped plugs with old ones. (Same Issue)
Checked gap on new plugs.
Seafoamed engine and fuel
Synced TB's
Checked vacuum on TB's (8.5 inHG)
Drained Tank and removed FP - Cleaned filter
Tank was clean internally.
Checked Spark plug caps/Wires/ and ignition coils (all proper resistances)
Checked bike at night (no arcs or sparks off chassis)

Thanks again to all who responded:

Marthy: I checked the pipes when warm with a spray off water and all evaporated. Going to start from cold engine to when it warms up to see if one headers takes longer to evaporate. I also called a shop and had the mechanic tell me to diagnose it myself because at 95 dollars an hour he said he could look at it all day and still not figure it out. (I am beginning to see what he meant!!)

REO Scorpio: Does your bike have any performance issues? It did sound similar to my bike.

lonesoldier84: :Flip: lol j.k I know my spelling is horrible. Thanks for the correction.

Scottsmith1972: Going to check the wiring diagram in manual and work my way from battery to ignition coils to ECU and make sure all the wires and connections are okay. Thanks for the suggestion.

TownsendsFJR1300: I realized that I smelt the fuel smell in the crankcase while the bike was just idling up. It might have been blow-by before the rings were hot enough to seal properly. Going to take her out for a bit and than sniff around. Also, checked the tank and it seemed pretty clean and im not too eager to take it off again LOL because it was a real PITA.

FinalImpact: Going to check the injectors with key ON and throttle open to see leaks. Thats a good idea, thanks. I'll try to take pictures of new and old plugs so as soon as possible. Its raining here so no working on it today. Also, I looked at a heli-coil kit and found one for 60.00 bucks, on ebay oil pan was 50.00. I hope helicoil kit doesnt put shavings into oil pan, do have to remove the whole pan to use it?

05 Yamaha FZ6 FZ600 OEM Oil Pan* | eBay

Amazon.com: Helicoil 5546-10 M10 x 1.5 Metric Coarse Thread Repair Kit: Automotive


Enjoy your weekends everyone. Ride safe.

No performance issues that I'm aware of, as it has been that way since new.

The bike seems to run okay. I can't get the wheel to pop up in first by just accelerating like some people apparently can, but that's not a goal of mine anyway!

Honestly, the only time I have had what I consider performance issues is when I'm messing with that damn autotune.

Here is the thread I referred to earlier:

http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/34471-normal-tickingnoise-fz6s-known-video.html

 

[FinalImpact]

Bought bike about a month ago- 2006 FZ6 with 20,400 miles.

Problem: Performance loss/Engine breaking up at speed and idle/Hesitation when engine braking or decel

Things I did before problem started:

Lubed/ Adjusted Chain
Changed Oil (Amsoil 10w-40 full synthetic)
Changed Coolant
Changed Spark plugs

Reset ECU
Checked Compression on all Cylinders (220 Psi)
Swapped plugs with old ones. (Same Issue)
Checked gap on new plugs.
Seafoamed engine and fuel
Synced TB's
Checked vacuum on TB's (8.5 inHG)
Drained Tank and removed FP - Cleaned filter
Tank was clean internally.
Checked Spark plug caps/Wires/ and ignition coils (all proper resistances)
Checked bike at night (no arcs or sparks off chassis)

FinalImpact: Going to check the injectors with key ON and throttle open to see leaks. Thats a good idea, thanks. I'll try to take pictures of new and old plugs so as soon as possible. Its raining here so no working on it today. Also, I looked at a heli-coil kit and found one for 60.00 bucks, on ebay oil pan was 50.00. I hope helicoil kit doesnt put shavings into oil pan, do have to remove the whole pan to use it?

Are you saying when you bought it it was fine? How long was it fine?

Let me check and see if I have one. You can use it. It'll be Next week before I check tho. It will put shavings in the pan, Grease on the drill and tap grabs some, a Q-tip with grease grabs some, pooring oil thru will get the last of it. A pan for 50 may not be a bad way to go tho.

Somehow I just can't imagine being able to see the injectors w/out pulling them tho. Also, the next oil filter you pull, cut it open and pull the element out and inspect it just for a sanity check.

I have to ask this again, is there any chance the fuel supply is bad? I have one station here that sells cr@p gas and my car hates it 50% of the time. It won't accelerate well as it limits the potential ignition advance which kills its performance. Adding Techron from Chevron helps, but buying gas elsewhere is best. I'm just saying if you've gotton it from the same place, you might try another place.

I'm not trying to be pain but can you offer more detail about the high speed issue and decel issues. Be wordy about its actual performance.

Regards,

 

[Kaisersoze]

Thanks for the reply and offer of the heli-kit. When I bought it, it was fine (in terms of not having this problem). I had to wash it good as it was covered in all kinds of crud. The previous owner only changed oil and filter, but thankfully did a good job of that because oil was fresh and tires still have meat on em too. I dont think its the gas because I added seafoam to new 91 octane gas and still had problem. Drained the entire tank with pump and only have a little fresh gas in there just to run and diagnose problem. Ill get you more info on the issues I have at speed on the road.

Does anyone think this could be an issue if a sensor went? Wouldnt that throw a fault code?

Also, here are the pictures of my old plugs. Currently put new ones back in.

Thanks all.

- Marc

Are you saying when you bought it it was fine? How long was it fine?

Let me check and see if I have one. You can use it. It'll be Next week before I check tho. It will put shavings in the pan, Grease on the drill and tap grabs some, a Q-tip with grease grabs some, pooring oil thru will get the last of it. A pan for 50 may not be a bad way to go tho.

Somehow I just can't imagine being able to see the injectors w/out pulling them tho. Also, the next oil filter you pull, cut it open and pull the element out and inspect it just for a sanity check.

I have to ask this again, is there any chance the fuel supply is bad? I have one station here that sells cr@p gas and my car hates it 50% of the time. It won't accelerate well as it limits the potential ignition advance which kills its performance. Adding Techron from Chevron helps, but buying gas elsewhere is best. I'm just saying if you've gotton it from the same place, you might try another place.

I'm not trying to be pain but can you offer more detail about the high speed issue and decel issues. Be wordy about its actual performance.

Regards,