Replacing the CCT (pickup rotor cover removal necessary?)

[shannim]

Hello all. I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I've got a 2007 FZ6 which I purchased in April of 2012. So far I've put over 16000 miles on it, doing two long distance road trips (one 2500 miles to Tybee Island, GA, and another 1700 miles to Indy MotoGP).

My bike is making the signature cam chain noise and I'd like to replace the cam chain tensioner. I recently took the bike to a mechanic for a valve check and they told me that all the valves were in spec and the noise is definitely a loose chain. When I first took it there two weeks beforehand the mechanic listened to it and thought it might be the valves, but was proven wrong when he actually did the check. I was due for it anyway since I had close to 27000 miles on the odometer.

Anyway, I've got the service manual and am reading up on how to change the CCT. The thing that I'm wondering is if it's necessary to drain the oil and remove the side pickup rotor cover. The service manual buries the CCT replacement in the section about checking the valves and replacing the camshafts, so the pickup rotor cover is already off. I've seen videos on YouTube that show you need to remove the cover so you can turn the motor with a socket wrench so the cams are at top dead center, but that was for the APE manual tensioners. If I intend to use an OEM automatic/hydraulic tensioner, so I still need to do this? Or is it as simple as just undoing the two hex-socket bolts holding the tensioner in and removing it, then replacing it per the manual (using a thin screwdriver to retract the plunger as you put it in)? Also, are the only two parts I need to buy "5SL-12210-10-00
TENSIONER ASSY, CAM CHAIN" and "4FM-12213-00-00
GASKET, TENSIONER CASE"?

Thanks in advance!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Hello all. I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I've got a 2007 FZ6 which I purchased in April of 2012. So far I've put over 16000 miles on it, doing two long distance road trips (one 2500 miles to Tybee Island, GA, and another 1700 miles to Indy MotoGP).

My bike is making the signature cam chain noise and I'd like to replace the cam chain tensioner. I recently took the bike to a mechanic for a valve check and they told me that all the valves were in spec and the noise is definitely a loose chain. When I first took it there two weeks beforehand the mechanic listened to it and thought it might be the valves, but was proven wrong when he actually did the check. I was due for it anyway since I had close to 27000 miles on the odometer.

Anyway, I've got the service manual and am reading up on how to change the CCT. The thing that I'm wondering is if it's necessary to drain the oil and remove the side pickup rotor cover. The service manual buries the CCT replacement in the section about checking the valves and replacing the camshafts, so the pickup rotor cover is already off. I've seen videos on YouTube that show you need to remove the cover so you can turn the motor with a socket wrench so the cams are at top dead center, but that was for the APE manual tensioners. If I intend to use an OEM automatic/hydraulic tensioner, so I still need to do this? Or is it as simple as just undoing the two hex-socket bolts holding the tensioner in and removing it, then replacing it per the manual (using a thin screwdriver to retract the plunger as you put it in)? Also, are the only two parts I need to buy "5SL-12210-10-00
TENSIONER ASSY, CAM CHAIN" and "4FM-12213-00-00
GASKET, TENSIONER CASE"?

Thanks in advance!

You don't have to drain the oil. And yes, those are all the parts you need unless you find worn chain guides under the cam chain cover.

You can replace it as you posted above, but if the chain is very loose/worn, there is a possibility the chain may jump a tooth.

IMHO, I'd first pull the right side cam chain cover. Plastic zip tie both verticle runs together (towards each other) so the chain physically cannot jump. Now, pull the cam chain adjuster..

I believe the new one will have a plastic retainer that holds the rod re-tracted (already installed). Install the new tensioner, remove the retainer so its now against the chain.

Cut the zip tie and finish re-assembling..

 

[FB400]

Shannim -
Holy smokes dude what an epic first post!!! Welcome to the forum.

your timing is perfect as you are reminding me of something I should check over the winter (2006 FZ6 w ~30k miles).

Subscribed to this thread. Bring it on

Thanks

 

[shannim]

You don't have to drain the oil. And yes, those are all the parts you need unless you find worn chain guides under the cam chain cover.

You can replace it as you posted above, but if the chain is very loose/worn, there is a possibility the chain may jump a tooth.

IMHO, I'd first pull the right side cam chain cover. Plastic zip tie both verticle runs together (towards each other) so the chain physically cannot jump. Now, pull the cam chain adjuster..

I believe the new one will have a plastic retainer that holds the rod re-tracted (already installed). Install the new tensioner, remove the retainer so its now against the chain.

Cut the zip tie and finish re-assembling..

Thanks for the advice! By cam chain cover, do you mean the pick up rotor cover? That's what the service manual calls it on page 5-33. (However, it appears to be called the oil pump cover, part 16 on the parts microfiche? Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6WC CRANKCASE COVER 1 Diagram) If I remove that, don't I need to replace that gasket as well? What's the purpose of the circular cover with the slot in it that's centered on the pick up rotor cover? Also, if I added a little bit too much oil the last time I changed it, is there any risk of it leaking out when I remove the cover? The oil pan sits right below where the cam chain is so I don't know if any extra oil sits in the cam chain area.

How long will all of this take, do you think? I don't have a garage and my bike is parked outside my apartment, so all of my wrenching is done in the parking lot when the weather is nice (and hopefully warm!). I suspect I'll need to remove the pick up rotor cover twice. The first time to check to see if I need new guides so I can make one order. Then reinstall the cover and place the parts order. Then a second time when I actually replace the tensioner.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks for the advice! By cam chain cover, do you mean the pick up rotor cover? That's what the service manual calls it on page 5-33. (However, it appears to be called the oil pump cover, part 16 on the parts microfiche? Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6WC CRANKCASE COVER 1 Diagram) If I remove that, don't I need to replace that gasket as well? What's the purpose of the circular cover with the slot in it that's centered on the pick up rotor cover? Also, if I added a little bit too much oil the last time I changed it, is there any risk of it leaking out when I remove the cover? The oil pan sits right below where the cam chain is so I don't know if any extra oil sits in the cam chain area.

How long will all of this take, do you think? I don't have a garage and my bike is parked outside my apartment, so all of my wrenching is done in the parking lot when the weather is nice (and hopefully warm!). I suspect I'll need to remove the pick up rotor cover twice. The first time to check to see if I need new guides so I can make one order. Then reinstall the cover and place the parts order. Then a second time when I actually replace the tensioner.

That is the correct cover that shoud come off.

The PU sensor doesn't even have to be un-plugged, just set it aside (maybe attached to the bike with a bungee cord).

That center plug does NOT have to come off. Its removed to access the main crankshaft bolt so you can spin the engine over slowly with a socket if checking the valves, etc.

The oil level is quite a bit lower than that cover(look at the dip stick marks and the lower part of that cover, there's a bit of a height difference). If its overfilled (like right now), that's not real good for the engine. Get a filter socket, put a pan under the filter and just loosen it slightly. Oil will come out. You can also use a small syringe with a hose on the end of it. Put the hose in the dip stick hole and suck it out (maybe 4-5" of hose, DO NOT DROP IT IN THE ENGINE).

The guides occassionally wear out. IMHO, I'd wait and see what they look like once your inside. If the chain is slopping about now, you really want to get to that as soon as possible. You can sometimes get by with the same side cover gasket, but you know, if you don't have one, it'll friggin tear.

You'll need an allan head tool for the cover, a tool (forgot what style is holding it on) for the CCT itself, and some plastic ties.

Nothing your doing is loctited on, you may have to scrape some gasket, but overall, couple of hours going slow. If the guides/chain look worn, I'd put the new CCT in and order the guides. Note, if you put a thin layer of regular grease on one side of the new gasket, should you have to remove it, it won't stick!

Just a side note, if the old chain, with the old tensioner is fully extended, you may be looking at a new chan, perhaps sprockets. Not to scare you (and probably not the case) but a possibility to be aware of.. A new CCT will extend just as far as the old one, just more tension, not sticky. If the chain is still loose with the new CCT, well, re-read the above..

I pulled that cover for a new one years ago (PO scraped it on a low side). The hardest part was removing the PU sensor which had torx screws inside and alot of locktite. You don't have to remove that. I did the swap in maybe 1/2 hour... I did it on the side stand, the bikes leaned away from you a little more, easier to see and the oil is naturally more off to the left side of the engine..:thumbup:

Oh, and welcome!!! :welcome:


BTW, most shops would probably just pull the old tensioner and throw in the new one... This method gives you a chance to see about any other worn parts and the chain definitly won't skip with the tie wraps either..

 

[shannim]

Well, the mechanic didn't mention anything about the cam chain being loose when he did the valve inspection. He did mention that he stretched out the spring in the tensioner, and one of the cable looms and/or tubes is now positioned on the other side of the tensioner, so I can only assume he did actually remove it to inspect it. I'm also assuming he removed the cam chain cover because it was a lot cleaner when I picked up the bike.

Also, what's the PU sensor?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well, the mechanic didn't mention anything about the cam chain being loose when he did the valve inspection. He did mention that he stretched out the spring in the tensioner, and one of the cable looms and/or tubes is now positioned on the other side of the tensioner, so I can only assume he did actually remove it to inspect it. I'm also assuming he removed the cam chain cover because it was a lot cleaner when I picked up the bike.

Also, what's the PU sensor?

If that spring is strung out that far, IMHO, I'd park that bike, NOW and DO NOT RIDE IT. If it skips a tooth or especially two, you'll likely destroy that engine...

The PU sensor (has two wires coming off it) it tells the ECU(computer) the exact placement of the crankshaft for ignition purposes.

Part #14 is the rotor, part #21, the pick up sensor. The sensor is bolted into that side cover case, the rotor is bolted to the end of the crankshaft. You'll see both with that side cover off.

Double click on the picture to enlarge it..

Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W ELECTRICAL 1 Diagram

 

[shannim]

If that spring is strung out that far, IMHO, I'd park that bike, NOW and DO NOT RIDE IT. If it skips a tooth or especially two, you'll likely destroy that engine...

The PU sensor (has two wires coming off it) it tells the ECU(computer) the exact placement of the crankshaft for ignition purposes.

Part #14 is the rotor, part #21, the pick up sensor. The sensor is bolted into that side cover case, the rotor is bolted to the end of the crankshaft. You'll see both with that side cover off.

Double click on the picture to enlarge it..

Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W ELECTRICAL 1 Diagram

I do want to note that the ticking noise has been going on for quite awhile now. Actually, it probably has been making that noise for the entire time I've owned the bike. It wasn't until I started reading the forum lately that I thought it was the CCT. Not that that means anything, just an observation.

 

[shannim]

A couple more questions...

How exactly does the CCT work? It's a combination of oil pressure and a spring, right? What are the typical failure modes?

I do want to also note that it's loudest at idle and seems to fade away as throttle is applied. Then again, the rest of the engine is louder too, so it may just be drowning it out.

I'm planning on calling my mechanic tomorrow morning to see if he remembers excess slack in the chain or wear on the guides.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

A couple more questions...

How exactly does the CCT work? It's a combination of oil pressure and a spring, right? What are the typical failure modes?

I'm planning on calling my mechanic tomorrow morning to see if he remembers excess slack in the chain or wear on the guides.

On the FZ6, it uses SPRING PRESSURE only to function.

It basically just pushes with the spring and inner rod on the rear cam chain guide up against the rear, slack side of the chain (as the engine is running).

When the CCT spring looses tension, (or the rear guide is worn) it doesn't push as hard up against the chain as it should and allows the chain to rattle inside the engine case up against other parts. One member had the chain so loose, it ate up his pick up coil (as mentioned above that's bolted inside the side cover)

+1 on calling your mechanic and see what he remembers seeing in there. The rear guide, literally sits inbetween the tensioner and the CCT and keeps the pressure on the chain.

On my old KLR 250 (28,000 miles) I replaced the chain, and the rear guide and it was fine. The CCt was ok. The cam chain in that engine was 2-3 times longer and tended to stretch.. The cam chain was behind the balancer chain (real short chain closest), you can see how far up it has to go to get to the cams, the tensioner is of course at the rear of the cylinder (left side thou). The last pic is the tensioner in the block, fully extended, with the new chain/guide installed. before the new parts were installed, that gap you see was maybe 1/4"...

Same principle..

 

[shannim]

Ah, okay. The mechanic said that it is possible for the springs to loose their springiness over time, so that's why he stretched it a little. The sound is a little quieter now than before after he did so. The mechanic did not outright mention anything about a loose chain or wear on the guides and I would hope that if it was serious he would have mentioned it. He didn't even call while he was doing the valve inspection to say as such. They only called to say the bike was ready to be picked up. I'm hoping that's a good sign.

Should I be considering a manual tensioner instead?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ah, okay. The mechanic said that it is possible for the springs to loose their springiness over time, so that's why he stretched it a little. The sound is a little quieter now than before after he did so. The mechanic did not outright mention anything about a loose chain or wear on the guides and I would hope that if it was serious he would have mentioned it. He didn't even call while he was doing the valve inspection to say as such. They only called to say the bike was ready to be picked up. I'm hoping that's a good sign.

Should I be considering a manual tensioner instead?

On my first KLR 250 (1989), my local mechanic years ago did kind of the same thing, but spun a couple of extra spirals in it for more tension. It did quiet it up. (thats a 9,000 RPM engine) with a long chain.

With a 14,000 RPM spinning engine, the internals need to be up to snuff. Its not unusual for for the tensioner to loose tension, the FJR uses a similar set up and has the same issues. If it starts to rattle just replace it...


Re the APE tensioner, please read this:

http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/50745-timing-chain-skipped-tooth.html

IMHO, it's one more thing to adjust and GO WRONG. I'd just replace it with a new one and be done with it..


BTW, if he did a valve check, he likely had that side cover to check for TDC for each cylinder. Theres a mark on the block and the rotor to line up...

 

[shannim]

Yeah, he definitely had the side cover off, because it was much cleaner than the rest of the engine when I picked the bike up.

Ewww. Manual tensioners look like they can be more trouble than they are worth.

So reading through the service manual, it appears that if you remove the top bolt from the CCT and put a screw driver in, you can tweak the plunger a bit. it looks like clockwise will retract the plunger. I assume counter clockwise will push it out more? Would this be a good way to double check it is indeed the (lack of) tension that's making the noise?

Tomorrow morning I'm going to take a video of the bike to post so you guys can hear what I'm hearing and confirm if it is indeed the CCT.

 

[PhotoAl]

Over 39,000 miles I replaced mine twice. Both times it would start making noise and finally I would replace. The first one was probably the worst - checked it by removing and then retracting and then let expand while holding it - I could feel a roughness that was not there in the new one. The way it works is the tensioner is basically a big screw with a spring wound around it. When you twist it counterclockwise (speaking from memory) then it retracts and puts tension in the spring by winding the spring up. A simple temporary fix is to pull it off and lube it nicely with motor oil. Have done that a couple of times - works for a little while.

To replace I bought a new tensioner and a gasket. Didn't really need the gasket but wanted to make sure .... The tensioner comes with a metal tab. The outside of the engine end of the tensioner is covered with a cap screw and washer. Remove the cap screw and you can retract the tensioner using a small flat blade screwdriver. With the tensioner off the bike you can retract and hold it in position and put the tab in to keep it retracted.

Edit: Forgot to mention the tensioner is bolted on with two bolts (alllen head) and is very simple to replace. The only lube it gets is what is splattered in that direction. IMO it is underlubed.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just to ad to the above post, a squirt or two of oil (your brand engine oil) down the new CCT won't hurt anything..

 

[shannim]

I just got off the phone with my mechanic. He said that he can't tell me for certain if there was any excess slack in the cam chain since he had the valve cover off and there is a top guide there that adds tension to the chain. He also said that he couldn't tell if there was any excess wear on the guides since the chain rides up right against them (I'm assuming he implied he didn't remove them to check). He did also confirm that in the extreme case where the chain stretched and/or the guides are worn to the extent that the tensioner isn't long enough, the noise would be way louder and that I wasn't at that point yet.

He told me that the plunger on the tensioner has a ratchet and tooth system and that it shouldn't retract on its own unless the teeth were worn out, which he's ever seen happen before. He mentioned that it's possible the spring is getting weak and doesn't have enough force to push the plunger to the next tooth, which is why I'm hearing a little rattling. He suggested I can try taking apart the tensioner and stretching the spring a little, or inserting a screwdriver and forcing the plunger to the next tooth.

Here's the video I took this morning when I started up the bike. It was parked outside and overnight temperatures were probably in the mid-30s to low 40s (we had a frost advisory this morning and it was 42F when I woke up). So the oil is cold and thick. The noise isn't as loud as I've heard in the past, so when the mechanic stretched the spring it must have helped a little bit. In the middle of the video you can barely hear what I'm saying, but all I was pointing out was that it wasn't as loud as before but that could have also been because I had earplugs in.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED1s2T7i1CQ]2007 Yamaha FZ6 cam chain tensioner? - YouTube[/ame]

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Your mechainc is 100% correct re the spring, racheting system. I've never seen the teeth inside the CCT wear out, it expands to tighten up the chain and then a tooth engauges. Its not like the teeth are getting worn out going back and forth. (Turning the middle screw in the CCT and keeping pressure on the plunger, pushes it back into the CCT-as I believe was already posted)

The engine that cold, does NOT sound bad at all, a little noisy. I think I would have prefered to hear it warmed up.

With the mileage, the fact that the mechanic somewhat addressed the CCT(on his own), the fact that YOU hear it louder than normal, I would simply replace it. Its cheap insurance and peace of mind.

As it sounds in the video, (perhaps I'm missing it), I have to lean towards the rear guide is probably ok.

 

[shannim]

Your mechainc is 100% correct re the spring, racheting system. I've never seen the teeth inside the CCT wear out, it expands to tighten up the chain and then a tooth engauges. Its not like the teeth are getting worn out going back and forth. (Turning the middle screw in the CCT and keeping pressure on the plunger, pushes it back into the CCT-as I believe was already posted)

The engine that cold, does NOT sound bad at all, a little noisy. I think I would have prefered to hear it warmed up.

With the mileage, the fact that the mechanic somewhat addressed the CCT(on his own), the fact that YOU hear it louder than normal, I would simply replace it. Its cheap insurance and peace of mind.

As it sounds in the video, (perhaps I'm missing it), I have to lean towards the rear guide is probably ok.

Awesome. I'll take another video of it this evening after I get home from work. 20 miles on the highway should have it warmed up pretty well.

 

[shannim]

Just got home from work. Here's a video of the noise after 20 miles of highway riding. It's definitely louder with a warm engine.

2007 Yamaha FZ6 cam chain tensioner noise (engine warm) - YouTube

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just got home from work. Here's a video of the noise after 20 miles of highway riding. It's definitely louder with a warm engine.

2007 Yamaha FZ6 cam chain tensioner noise (engine warm) - YouTube

That's what I wanted to hear, a warm engine and some rev's. A bit louder.

IMHO, just change it, again, its cheap insurance.

Between the manual and this thread, you should be able change it out within the hour or have your mechanic swap in the new one while you wait...:thumbup: