Rear tire losing traction when braking hard

[FinalImpact]

I do have to throw caution to use of engine braking as dropping gears can easily lead to a rear lock-up just as if using the rear brake.

Don't get me wrong, during normal deceleration I always engine brake but I also blip the throttle during each down shift to match the RPMs to the new gear selection to reduce the chance of rear lock up.
In a panic, use of the throttle and front brake lever will likely cost you braking distance vs using the front and rear brakes effectively.

 

[FinalImpact]

...... in an Emergency situation, inches count! This is motorcycling 101, pretty basic stuff here. . . . .

This is why everyone needs to practice their quick stops on a regular basis. I do, every week! Progressive squeeze is the key, similar to slowly squeezing your girlfriend's boobs, if you grab them, you'll probably will get slapped! Same as crashing in my opinion.

OK -Nooooooow I can relate!
Gentle to the things we love! lol

 

[Erci]

similar to slowly squeezing your girlfriend's boobs, if you grab them, you'll probably will get slapped! Same as crashing in my opinion.

Great analogy for the guys, but what do you tell your female students to squeeze? :rof:

 

[Randomchaos]

Trying to downshift during a panic braking situation isn't a great idea. It takes more focus away from what's going on in front of you that is cauing the panic braking, and putting more focus on trying to do things like squeeze the brake lever, mash down the gears while slipping the clutch and blipping the throttle. Its much easier to train your body to squeeze the brakes, not hard at first, to throw the weight forward and compress the front suspension, then press them harder, and look for an escape route while declerating rapidly. Rear brake use can help, but will not take alot to lockup the rear. Try and also train yourself on keeping your weight off your arms to allow for easier control, and help keep the front from locking, as well as make the rear brake a bit more usable.

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[Erci]

Trying to downshift during a panic braking situation isn't a great idea.

I have to disagree with this statement. I wouldn't advocate blipping throttle and trying to engine brake through the gears, but I would absolutely say that you should be downshifting as you're braking hard.

When you complete the stop (be it to full stop or just shaving off a bunch of speed) you want to be in the right gear to get going right away again if you have to. You don't want to find yourself fully stopped in the middle of the road in 5th gear. Learned this years ago in MSF course.

 

[alanrim]

The rear brake on the FZ6 is way over powered making it even more difficult to control than any other bike owned before or since.

 

[Hellgate]

The only way you're going to highside with the rear brake lock is if the bike is leaned over, like way over, in a turn. If you use too much rear brake and lock it up gently release to lever and you be fine.

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[mcteague]

Sorry if someone already said this, a quick skim did not reveal it, but you can pull the brake lever off and put it back on a notch lower. You can still use the brake but have to angle your foot down much more for full pressure. This limits locking it up in a panic stop.

There is also a lock nut adjustment but it makes does not move the pedal that much.

This is just how it is with short wheelbase vehicles. Too much weight transfer too quickly and the rear has so little contact with the road that is does not take much to lock it.

Tim

 

[ozzieboy]

If you keep the rear locked and it steps out sideways due to the camber of the road and you let the brake off it will try to snap back into line with the front (uncomfortable), so if you lock the rear, and are thinking quickly as you should be riding a bike, you can (as Hellgate just said) ease off immediately (before it steps out) and you should fine.

As for panic braking???

Panic won't help. Brake hard if that's what you have to do, but always try to keep your head and continue looking for exits from your situation, so when an opportunity presents itself you can release the brake, nudge the bar forward in the direction you want to move, and (as one shepherd said to the other)get the flock outta there. So every night when I practise my emergency stopping at the last turn before I enter my street, I have the front tire chirping a little occasionally, and I continue to change down gears from 170km/h (it is emergency stopping...I have to work hard to stop in time) so when I come up to the turn, I am ready to make a quick change of plans at the last instant and not take the turn, and get out of the slip lane while getting back on the gas, or even make a U-turn instead if I'm going slow enough.

I never know for sure what I'll do until the last instant.:thumbup:

 

[DownrangeFuture]

You should downshift during an emergency brake, but I never have to blip when I down shift. Unless I just screw it up that badly. I was taught in my advanced riding school that you should roll back slightly as you brake, that'll leave you at 1-5% throttle, then just clutch, shift, and release clutch. So it is kind of "blipping" but it's automatic like that. You'd do the same technique with a quick shifter. Always, always, ALWAYS, wait a beat before downshifting again. Ideally, with each gear, the rev up will not go as high as the previous down shift. That will keep you from downshifting too quickly and locking the rear wheel.

Is this something you'd teach in motorcycling 101? No. I wouldn't want to teach a guy that just learned where the clutch was yesterday how to engine brake. Should you aspire to learn it? Yes. At some point I want to learn to quick stop with my front, rear, and engine brake. Maybe I'll start when I practice again tomorrow. Wednesday is the only day the MSF range on base is free.

Emergency braking, and late braking for that left hander you don't want to get passed on are essentially the same thing. Lots of racers don't use their rear unless they're trying to trail brake, and the less time you spend braking, the more time you can spend accelerating. That equals faster lap times, and that's what they're paid to do. So I would think if the benefits of the rear outweighed the risks of using it, then more racers would use it. Granted, linked race ABS is starting to creep into the top tiers...

But in the end, whatever you do, practice till you're tired of it, then do it 5-6 more times. Do that every week. Try different ways and go with whatever can stop you the quickest, but still leave you the exit. Remember, the goal of most emergency braking is to slow down until you can find an exit, sometimes there isn't one, but making sure you use your SEE strategy all the time you shouldn't put yourself into a situation with no out.

"The best riders use their superior judgement to avoid situations where their superior skills are necessary."

 

[Motogiro]

There is so much going on when emergency braking that practice and riding experience are the very best teachers for automatic response.
Last month I had to emergency brake on a mountain road (downhill) because of the actions of a semi (In the shoulder) and a pickup truck. I was already aware I and the bike in front of me may have to stop quickly and had started my engine braking. The distance shortened very quickly as the semi pulled into the lane and the pickup started swinging into our path changing all the hole paths. As I went harder on the brakes the added V-twin compression braking stopped the back wheel. I immediately let the pressure off the back wheel to ensure the bike could still track to the hole I thought I might need in a failure to stop in the distance needed. I reapplied the rear brake as soon as I knew it was tracking and was safely stopped in the distance I needed but pointed in the direction of the hole i might have needed.

To say that you should stay on a locked rear wheel as a proper way to brake is dependent on so many factors that I hope these factors are discussed in MSF classes. I guess you have to start somewhere in the beginning with folks that have little or no experience but if I followed that hard rule I believe the out come would not be as good as it was.

Edit: I didn't get to post this when I wanted to (company) but there are so many good answers from experienced riding here on our forum. Thank you!

 

[FIZZER6]

The only way you're going to highside with the rear brake lock is if the bike is leaned over, like way over, in a turn. If you use too much rear brake and lock it up gently release to lever and you be fine.

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Watch that crash video on page one. Shows how you can high side by locking up the rear in a panic brake when going straight, the rear end slides sideways, leaning the bike over....then it catches traction and quickly flicks the bike back upright...end of story.

I'd take a low side over a high side in 99% of crash situations.

 

[Randomchaos]

Heh meant I wouldn't downshift as in blipping throttle and all that for the OP, I would do the normal dropping of the gears though like taught in MSF.

And yea you can deffinately "highside" by locking up the rear tire. If the backend steps out enough, when it regains traction it will load the rear suspension as the bike tries to realign itself. Once it does, it will rapidly unload the suspension, which will throw the rider up in the air. Kinda the same thing that happens if you spin up the reartire and the backend steps out, and you chop the throttle.

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[FAZR6]

If you keep over using that rear brake you will eventually go down. I pretty much only use mine when im on gravel or riding on sandy surfaces. I will lightly add some rear brake when I feel like I need a little extra but it is really hard to train yourself not to stomp it when you feel panicy.

I have adjusted my rear brake to hang lower so that I have to reach a little for it before I even put pressure on it. That also makes it a lot harder to over use it by mistake.

 

[Hellgate]

Watch that crash video on page one. Shows how you can high side by locking up the rear in a panic brake when going straight, the rear end slides sideways, leaning the bike over....then it catches traction and quickly flicks the bike back upright...end of story.

I'd take a low side over a high side in 99% of crash situations.

Did you ever slide you rear bike tire as a kid? Did you highside? I suppose you can do anything, but to keeping a tire locked is flat stupid, as a skidding tire is an out of control tire, an out of control tire = and out of control motorcycle. To keep the bike in control you need to well, control it. Sorry. Honestly I've read a lot of incorrect information here tonight. I must be getting old as I really don't feel like explaining. Why don't you go find an empty parking lot and try it? Oh wait I just figured it out you're from the Harley school of, "Don't touch the front brake she'll throw you over the bars!" Or, "I was going to fast I had to lay 'er down."

Dude, that is an instructional video, he intentionally highsided. How do I know? There are multiple camera angles.

Go do a dozen track days and then come talk to me...

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Many of you are referring your braking to the track, and there a lot of riders, including myself in a way who are not that advanced in braking in a racing scenario. We are just talking about basics, skill level relatively average, not at a professional level, riding in traffic. For those who are not that advanced, keeping the rear tire lock is the safest way to prevent a high side fall.

Remember this video? 2 minute mark is the crash. Rear tire lock up (panick brake) and then release and away he goes.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQCLW1jVDo&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - motorcycle crash part 2[/ame]

 

[chuckfz6ryder]

I won't add anything to the rear brake debate, but I had a similar problem years ago. It was an old tire. If you've got a 2005 FZ6, and your af FZ noob as you call yourself, check that you don't have original tires on there.


OK, I have to weigh in on the rear brake issue........I don't think it does a lot, but I use it, but just barely. I use it just to have that muscle memory there for when I really need it. I use a lot of engine braking.

 

[muck_mahone]

If you lock up either brake on a motorcycle, release it and then re apply the brake. With practise you will get quite good at it. Without thinking you will be able use all the braking power your bike has and avoid the ambulance ride. Panicking is the enemy, check out Keith Code's school and book, particularly about our "survival instincts"

 

[greg]

we (iin the UK) are taught not to lock the brakes up when emergency stopping. I think it's possibly a fail, or at least a minor if you skid (on the test)

I think part of it is learning the feel of your bike, I know how much pressure I can apply to the rear, though in fairness i've never pushed the front to the limit.

I think also that different situations require different techniques, there's probably not a one size fits all solution.

 

[ozzieboy]

Another thing to remember is body position. If you're leaning forward over the tank like you are riding a supersport the lack of weight on the rear of the bike will cause it to lock up easier.

As for keeping the rear locked.... The same road camber that causes the rear to step out, means if you keep it locked you will have to steer downhill or you will get sideways. This will eventually run you out of road. At this point you will have to 'unlock' or more than likely drop it on the dirt.

And since you're going to have to unlock the brakes to get the bike back under control anyway...why wait until you're just next to the edge of the road?