Motorcyclist shot in back from traffic cop

[SLracer]

Codeblue, I am military and have to make decisions regarding things much more significant than a handgun. In this line of work a second is a minute and training should teach that. You always need to be analyzing what if this happens what if he does this. I don't care what heat of the moment says, heat of the moment is what they are supposed to do and make good choices during.

 

[RJ2112]

RJ, I almost ALWAYS agree with you, but I will have to disagree for a second here. Being reckless in a school zone at 2:17AM is probably the best place to be reckless...there definitely aren't any teachers or kids around at that time. And again, being reckless at 2:17AM is probably when the streets and neighborhoods are the least crowded.

With that being said, being reckless is just that...it's not a wise decision. But I don't think the fact that it was 2:17AM in a school zone should have any negative effect on the situation. But doing anything dumb after 2:00AM (bars in PA close at 2:00AM) is just stupid...there are more police out and they're always on the lookout for drunk drivers, fights, etc.

I definitely agree with your 4 list points though!:thumbup:

I wasn't trying to indicate that they should not have exceeded 20 MPH, or any of that, Mancolt....... how many elementary schools do you know of that are not surrounded by family housing? It's fair to say these guys were blasting around either in a suburb, or somewhere with a high density of citizens who would normally be asleep at 2 something in the morning.

I don't have much experience with bars being located adjacent to elementary schools..... maybe that's more common elsewhere in the country.

I'd be willing to bet they were on their way home to put away the RUB stuff. Maybe even go to church the following day. (That's a 'best case' scenario...)

Just because these jackholes want to wake everyone within a half mile of their position will not endear them to me. Me, I WANT the LEOs to spoil that 'fun'.

Again, I'm not saying Micheal deserved to get shot. I'm saying his actions and behavior leading up to the shooting, contributed to a large degree to the outcome. It would be especially obnoxious, if the other rider sued as well.

 

[RJ2112]

Codeblue, I am military and have to make decisions regarding things much more significant than a handgun. In this line of work a second is a minute and training should teach that. You always need to be analyzing what if this happens what if he does this. I don't care what heat of the moment says, heat of the moment is what they are supposed to do and make good choices during.

See, this is another spot where the escalation of force hits a problem. I really, really think in this age of 17 shot clips semi auto side arms, the first 3 rounds should be non lethal. Wax, rubber, what have you. If a bean bag round could be built to be fired out of the same weapon the LEO carries at all times, that would be ideal. Even an 'over/under' with a Taser built in.

You and I both know we weren't there in that LEO's shoes. Our training indicates TO US that he over reacted. But again, once the weapon clears the holster...... training says limit the threat. We don't have the same line of sight. We don't have as much information as he did. He surely had enough time to run the plates on both bikes..... what came back? Either one a felon? Were the bikes legally registered?

As the LEO cleared his vehicle, and the 2nd bike roared off over the curb out of his line of sight -- right at the same time, Micheal drops his hand to his waist band and turns in the direction of the LEO.

 

[The Toecutter]

Buddy of mine got half his right calf blown off in Dry Prong la. back in the early 90's..he was pulled over on his chopper and one cop stood in front of him gun drawn and the other behind him with a shot gun.the cop in front ordered him on his knees.so he reached to put his hand on his back for suport as he was kneeling... trigger happy shotgun cop thought he was going for a gun and shot him in the leg.......he got a little over $40,000 for his pain and suffering and the shooter lost his badge....

 

[sabre]

I am generally a very pro-LE person and have a fair amount of LE training.
However I have to say this shooting was completely wrong. Yes the bikers should not have done the things that lead up to the shooting, but the officer should not have pulled the trigger.
As far as the warning shots wounding arm/leg shots. In the US that is a definate NO.
Officers are taught that if a firearm is used it is a lethal weapon. Period. If you do not feel the need for lethal force you should not use a firearm. Use a taser, pepper spray, something else.
Bullets fired into the air come down. Gravity sees to that. People have been killed from these falling bullets.

 

[OneTrack]

In that moment of time, do you really have the luxuryof time to assess, interpret, quantify the probability of how good of a shot a would be shooter is? This is mere split second decision, something most of us will never know unless we are in law enforcement or military. All that police officer was seeing was a potential threat to his life and he acted according to his training.

I respectfully disagree....that traffic cop did have the luxury of time to assess and deal with the situation, even after he got out of his patrol car. There was no "split second decision" required.
Here is an example of an officer making a "split second decision":-
Video : Hamilton officer cleared in fatal shooting during January traffic stop
Big difference.

 

[Mancolt]

I wasn't trying to indicate that they should not have exceeded 20 MPH, or any of that, Mancolt....... how many elementary schools do you know of that are not surrounded by family housing? It's fair to say these guys were blasting around either in a suburb, or somewhere with a high density of citizens who would normally be asleep at 2 something in the morning.

I'd be willing to bet they were on their way home to put away the RUB stuff. Maybe even go to church the following day. (That's a 'best case' scenario...)

Just because these jackholes want to wake everyone within a half mile of their position will not endear them to me. Me, I WANT the LEOs to spoil that 'fun'.

Again, I'm not saying Micheal deserved to get shot. I'm saying his actions and behavior leading up to the shooting, contributed to a large degree to the outcome. It would be especially obnoxious, if the other rider sued as well.

Fair enough, and I wasn't arguing with most of what you said. Just the little bit about the school zone. The rest of it I agree with, especially your last paragraph although I still think it was unjustified but could have been avoided altogether.

I don't have much experience with bars being located adjacent to elementary schools..... maybe that's more common elsewhere in the country.

I don't either, and if I implied that this is common around my area, I apologize. I doubt it's common anywhere.

 

[RJ2112]

It's a lot like walking into a biker bar uninvited, and getting drunk, looking for a fight.

If you didn't throw the first punch, but got the cr*p kicked out of yourself..... do you have the right to sue the bar for damages? Probably..... but what did you REALLY expect to have happen?!?!?!?

There's a really blurry line between what's right and what's wrong. The moral high ground HAS to go to the victim; that's the basis of our legal system. He has to be considered innocent until proven guilty. The LEO is REQUIRED to uphold a higher standard. In this case, I do believe he will be found to have fallen short.

I can't say that I don't understand how he got there.

 

[Wavex]

The cop shot someone unarmed and in the back... enough said

 

[ice]

I have had respect for 99.5% of the police I have come in contact with through out my life.
But.
This shooting does not look good to me.
Wonder if there was something going on we didn`t see.
In the video, the rider did not appear to be threatening.
If they did not stop soon enough, that is not justification for a shooting.

Were they running from a serious crime?.

 

[FLuK28]

The cop shot someone unarmed and in the back... enough said

Exactly! Nothing more needs to be said. Unless this kid was Doc Holiday he was in NO WAY shape or form, a threat to this police officer.

He was clearly just turning around to hear/see what was going on and probably couldn't hear a damn thing over his bike, the sirens and the shouting cop.

If the cop was so worried about it, he could have stayed in his car instructing the man over his loud speaker until he put his hands up.

Let's not make up excuses just for the sake of argument.

 

[Wavex]

Exactly... you could spend all day long with "what ifs", but with the information we have (the video), that cop clearly should not have shot the dude.

I predict another 3 pages minimum to this thread though

 

[FLuK28]

Only 3 more pages? Now everyone's going to stop posting because of that prediction!

 

[codeblue]

The only place more officers get killed and injured than a traffic stop, is answering domestic disturbances. Especially after the bars close.

2:17 AM. Two modified bar hoppers, getting loud in a school zone, and residential area. Romping away from multiple stop signs, with a LEO clearly in view behind them. Can we say a couple of operators, that have had a few? Threat. 2 on 1. Threat. It's clear, if they had been sober enough, they would have run from the LEO. The only reason he was in sight of them was due to the speed bumps on the road they were riding along.

I watched that whole 5 minutes of video. I believe it was Micheal's bike that was equipped with 'ape hangars'. He couldn't maintain a 'normal' hand position if he'd wanted to. That contributes to the threat he presented to the LEO. Was he sober enough to understand any commands given him? How deaf was he, from his own pipes? Add in his buddy's loss of control, and he could very easily have pulled a weapon, or evaded. Threat.

I didn't see any 'colors' on the riders..... but you can bet that this was a thought high in the mind of the LEO.

Most late night shifts are the ones they stick the rookies on...... this was a bad situation all around. Looking at the LEO, he didn't seem to be a 20 something.

The LEO and the agency are going to pay serious reparations to the victim of the shooting. There's no question of that. Millions of dollars will change hands over this.

But think about it. The riders were obviously bar hopping, and raising some moderate 'heck' afterwards. In a residential area. By a school.

If you think that doesn't merit attention from your LEOs.......... This went south, no doubt about it. If you think that the actions of the riders did not contribute to this out come, I really have to wonder how you get to that conclusion.

1) don't drink and ride.
2) don't try and run from a LEO.
3) don't try and look like a gangster.
4) don't do all of the above, at 2:17 AM, in the company of someone who cannot maintain control of their vehicle.:thumbup:

I agree with this assumption and I say that because we're not the rider who got shot or the officer that did the shooting. We really don't know what happened that entire night before, during, and after the shooting. All we're seeing is a short clip from a year ago. Don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to blame any specific person involved in this. Just trying to see both sides, sort of devil's advocate for both parties. Definitely both parties involved made terrible mistakes that night a year ago. These riders shouldn't have ridden the way they did, the officer should have look for some other means to pacify the situation at hand instead of shooting. But unfortunately both parties involved failed, so now one guy is paralyzed from the waist down and another will probably go to jail for making the wrong decision. Either way, both lives are changed forever.

 

[codeblue]

The cop shot someone unarmed and in the back... enough said

TRUE enough, but life as we know it is never just black and white. It's full of gray areas. If it was just good and bad then this life would be so much simpler to live in. Again, not justifying the shooting. Just trying to understand the whole situation. It's very easy to symphatize for a fellow fallen rider, especially one that was shot in the back when he is unarmed.

 

[codeblue]

By chance, Has anyone found anything more to this story other than the actual shooting. Not trying to belittle the topic at hand, but very important to "know" the entire story. Tried looking on the net, but I'm only finding story about the actual shooting.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

By chance, Has anyone found anything more to this story other than the actual shooting. Not trying to belittle the topic at hand, but very important to "know" the entire story. Tried looking on the net, but I'm only finding story about the actual shooting.

Does anyone live near Ottawa Hills?

I guess we can wait and see what the outcome will be.

Maybe after the trial, maybe the rider can join this forum and get his side of the story.

Lesson, learned, don't put yourself in these kind of High Risk Traffic stops.

 

[kyle]

I respectfully disagree....that traffic cop did have the luxury of time to assess and deal with the situation, even after he got out of his patrol car. There was no "split second decision" required.
Here is an example of an officer making a "split second decision":-
Video : Hamilton officer cleared in fatal shooting during January traffic stop
Big difference.

Ok, I hate to add to this thread after it seems the contention seemed to die down on its own, but did anyone check out the link OneTrack posted there? What an amazing story. I just got through reading the article and the guy pulled the trigger with that gun right in the officer's face and it just happened to hit a previously fired round.

And for the record that is in stark contrast to the biker shooting, which when I look at it the guy is not only simply turning like anyone seated on a motorcycle does naturally (as was mentioned ad nauseum), but also nearly a full second passes of the guy just facing the same direction motionless after turning a little before he's shot.

Seeing the other video sort of gives example to what can happen to officers out there, but man, you just can't be that jumpy. Not with a firearm in your hand.

 

[Ridgeback]

Like the other guys in the UK,I'm damn glad that the police manage to deal with 95% of crime without having to pull out a gun,let alone start waving one about on a traffic stop.

This Country is rife with vehicle thefts,but I've never heard of an ARV being deployed to deal with it.

I'm sorry,but it really does underline the crazy gun culture in the States.
I can't imagine being in the position where every arguement,traffic stop,getting out of bed the wrong side etc,could end up with people dying as an every day thing.
The Gun laws make it so the Police's first instinct is that they have to assume that whoever they stop may well be armed

The above in no way justifies shooting someone in the back however.

 

[drkseed70]

The Cops where I live are like one big gang. They are corrupt and cover each other, and power trip. They look at every citizen as a potential criminal so I see everyone of them as potential assholes. I hope he goes to jail and the guys he's locked up are ther with him.