Motorcyclist shot in back from traffic cop

[McLovin]

I got pulled over recently, and I did the exact opposite of you. I understand it's great for you to have everything ready when the cop walks up but to prevent spooking the LEO by getting off your bike and start reaching into your pocket is a recipe for disaster.

What I did was as soon as I got pulled over:

1. Turned off the bike
2. Remained seated on my motorcycle with my hands visible, like on the handlebars.
3. All gear on, inlcuding helmet.
4. Wait until I receive further instructions.
5. I was asked for my driver's license so I told the LEO I will be reaching for them which was inside my pocket.

In this case, he didn't even ask for my registration. He just wanted my driver's license and insurance and then he let me go.

Not sure what the best protocal is on what to do when you get pulled over on a bike, but if there are any professionals out there who are on this forum who pull people over for a living, interesting what they would say on what's the best way on a bike.

Funny you say that because this is what I used to do before my incident. Then after I heard all these stories about how cops tend to let people go relatively easier if you behave and have your docs ready and stuff. I decided to be extra careful and kind as usual.

I mean, doesnt it make more sense for me to get off the bike where they can clearly see that my hands are busy taking my gloves and helmet off? And i was facing my bike so they could see me from the profile.A cop could easily interpret just sitting kind of behavior as a danger too. (which he did in the video) It was dark and I had no reason to put my hands up like guns are drawn on me. So I thought you know instead of sitting suspiciously with my hands on my knees or something i would make myself as catchable as possible. Plus, if i was sitting with my hands on the handlebar, i can possibly take off before they can get back in their cars to follow me. .

Anyway, to give some more info on this incident. They made me put my hands up and cop held my fingers behind me and asked me why i was riding SO QUICKLY?? I said i dont know what youre talking about. I admit that I ride aggresively..but i dont break the law. Somewhat of a hard accell. doesnt mean you have to go over the speed limit. but it can mean getting away from a dangerous mass of cars. So I have my habits and reasons to ride the way I do. Anyway so they got me sitting on the curb and checked my stuff. And the cop looked confused when he was handing me my documents. Meanwhile 4 more cops arrived and it was a festival! Way to spend tax payers money!:thumbup:

 

[codeblue]

That is the most discusting post I have ever seen on this site! How in the hell can you say he deserved to be shot? He was sitting peacefully on his bike when the coward shot him in the back.

Ok so he took off fast from a red light! I do that all the time, do I deserve to be shot? So he was riding with a guy that can't contol a bike. I have a few times also, do I deserve to be shot? He pulled over for the cop and the ass much shot him in the back. I say fry his ass, but that's not an option.

It's hard for any of us here reading and posting to this thread about whether Michael deserved to get shot (in the back or not) for what transpired that night a year ago. We weren't there to witness it and whatever we're seeing through this police camera doesn't capture everything. When I made that statement i wasn't condoning shooting the guy in cold blood, if you read my other post I even questioned possibly giving some sort of warning shot in the air is that was feasible. But an patrol officer riding alone in the middle of the night sees two bikers riding in the middle of the night, one erractically handling his bike, another speeding off as if to challenge the officer behind despite being followed for awhile. Failure to slow down and stop despite lights and sirens was initiated. The victim appearing to be pulling a gun from from his right side is further exacerbated probably by the police officers poor line of sight to differentiate the a friendly body language from a hostile movement. The natural instinct to preserve one's own life during fight or flight situation coupled with intense police training is what nearly cost this guys life, instead now he's crippled for life.
Like I said before, if this happened during the daytime and by the looks of the footage this is somewhat a residential area and other people are hurt because of their disregard of the law... would you feel so strongly for the guy that was shot. This guys DID NOT THINK first and certainly DID NOT CARE when they rode irresponsibly that night and the ONLY reason he stop is because his buddy almost crashed, as a matter of fact they almost crashed into each other at the turn.

 

[SLracer]

I don't see anyway this could be viewed as the officer doing the right thing. Lets say the guy did have a gun, and it was on his right hip. He definitely wasn't going to be shooting anyone behind and to his left over his right shoulder esp with his left hand where it was. He would have had to draw the weapon and turn 270 degrees to his left before the officer was even in danger. The officer had a ton of options not to mention time left to make the choice to use deadly force.

 

[Prebstar]

I know he's a Harley rider, but that is certainly over the top.

 

[codeblue]

I don't see anyway this could be viewed as the officer doing the right thing. Lets say the guy did have a gun, and it was on his right hip. He definitely wasn't going to be shooting anyone behind and to his left over his right shoulder esp with his left hand where it was. He would have had to draw the weapon and turn 270 degrees to his left before the officer was even in danger. The officer had a ton of options not to mention time left to make the choice to use deadly force.

In that moment of time, do you really have the luxuryof time to assess, interpret, quantify the probability of how good of a shot a would be shooter is? This is mere split second decision, something most of us will never know unless we are in law enforcement or military. All that police officer was seeing was a potential threat to his life and he acted according to his training. We on the other hand understand that this is not the case A) because we are riders and we understand a fellow riders body language B)The police camera was showing us a different angle of view from what the officer was possibly seeing.
If those guys simply stop from the start and tried not to get away, then maybe the story would've been different.
Others have stated that they have pulled away from a traffic pack fast to avoid being run over, I've done this as well....BUT this is night time... NO TRAFFIC at the back except for the patrol officer. So why did they speed off so quickly, if you noticed on the video they were aware of the patrol officer's car beforehand.
Watch the full video Ant_mb, I doubt that you would ride irresponsibly like that especially when a cop is on your tail. The dude certainly did not deserve to get shot, but he and his friend certainly did not help the situation by instigating something.

 

[Kazza]

Shoot first, ask questions later :shakehead:

Disgusting. It must be scary for cops out there dealing with crims, but the guy just sat there - didn't try to do anything. Taser would have been a good option. Now he's paralised.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Now would have the shooting been justified if they did find a handgun, but.......if he also had a CWP?

Good thing for the rider that he did not have a CWP, as it may have hurt his defense.

 

[Hutchmaster34]

I'm sorry Codeblue but I disagree with 90% of what you've said. Cops are trained to use deadly force as the last option, period.

 

[Motogiro]

I'm not going to target any specific part of this thread but would like to remind folks that I have on past posts, defended LEO's in what I considered professional actions that many here thought were too aggressive.
I agree that a stop like that warrants the possibility for the use of deadly force. In this case there is no reason to try to wound the guy by shooting him in the leg. That for the most part is not done and for a number of reasons. If you think about it you may possibly come to some of the logical conclusions. If he had a gun and was going to shoot you wouldn't try to wound him. You would try to use deadly force to stop him. If some one runs from you you wouldn't try to wound him and then possibly kill him for running away. There is some serious training that goes into 'Shoot-don't Shoot' training. Some officers receive or opt personally for other additional types of training to help fill the gray areas of 'Shoot-don't Shoot' in close combat situations. We as everyday citizens will find it hard to realize what the experience of a LEO is on a stop. We may think we know but...

In my opinion this officer made a terrible mistake. For what ever reason at that moment he failed in the situation. Still, how can someone say to hang or fry him? I personally don't know the exact reason that weapon was discharged. I totally understand the emotional aspect of identifying with the victim. I cannot even begin to imagine the suffering of the victim who may have lost a lot more than just the mobility in his lower extremities.

I can't imagine what justified this shooting other than terrible judgement and training.

 

[kcrunch1]

looking back at the raw footage and realized that the two bikers ended up switching lane positions during the turn shortly after speeding. It was Michael that initiated the speeding and his buddy that was swerving beforehand was the one that rode up the curb during the turn. Hmmmmm.

Please explain swerving. I watched the raw footage and saw no swerving at all. The bike on the right Once moved slowly to the left behind his riding partner then moved back to the right but maintained staggered position. We all do this, no one who rides just locks into one position the entire time. Then right before the turn the rider on the right seemed not to know that the road turns to the right. The double yellow line disappears on the apex of the turn and then picks up near the end of the turn. They're riding at night so it's easy to miss this unless you take it slow. The rider on the right goes straight instead of turning and hops a curb on the opposite side with a patrol car following him. Michael, the rider on the left who maintained a steady position throughout, stops his bike and is just sitting on his bike. No sudden movements no reaching for anything. I didn't see any swerving. Without any other evidence other than the raw footage I've watched and not projecting anything into rationalizing anyone's actions, the bikers or the LEOs, this was as plain as day, stupid reaction from nerveous pussy ass cop. ****ing guy should of never been allowed to become a cop if he so damn afraid of everyone out there. From talking to friends who are LEOs, some people should never been allowed to be cops, they're not cut out for it and they do the proffession a dis service.

 

[Humperdinkel]

That cop deserves all he gets & some :spank: :spank:

 

[KensFz6]

Turning to face someone who is likely shouting at you seems to me like an expectable reaction.

 

[Jez]

What I find so troubling about this is the acceptance, no doubt justified, that the cops are going to shoot first and ask questions later, like it's some kind of trigger happy society. Last time I got pulled over on the bike, copper says switch off the engine please sir. I do so. Can I see your licence and registration? I pull off my glove, unzip my jacket, stick my hand inside, pull them out and offer them to him. Thank you sir.

Now at no time did he see me reaching for my jacket, throw himself to the ground and start firing at me from a prone position. I do not loudly inform him that I am about to move my hand in a westerly direction, nor do I move in slow motion, nor sit there with my hands on my head. Because that'd just be bloody silly.

However, if a policeman is pointing a gun at you as a matter of routine, you will react differently. In this country they'd need a damn good reason to draw one in the first place.

I know of one guy, an Algerian, who had spent many years in London before returning home. One night as he rolled up to a police roadblock in Algiers he noticed they all took cover and drew their weapons on him. He sat there shaking until one approached and dragged him out the car.
"Why did you not dip your headlights and switch on the interior light?" they yelled at him. "We could have killed you!"
"I'm sorry," he says, "I've been living in London and didn't understand what to do."
"Yeah right," says the cop. "Like they don't have suicide bombings in London too."

 

[sublime0713]

I agree with ant mb on this. Why are some of you blaming the victim? Yes, the rider used poor judgment several times that night. But if we shot all the stupid people Earth's population would be cut by 90-some-odd percent. I respect the job that LEOs do, but this cop f'd up. Period. And watching the footage in it's entirety reinforces that. Some of you out there may be ok with having to live in a virtual police state, constantly worried about whether you're going to get shot on your bike, but I'm not.

 

[Mancolt]

^^^^what he said.
I can't believe what I see. I wonder if the gun went off accidentally. That is the only way I can see this happening.
all the best to the poor paralyzed victim.

Elizabeth, guns don't go off accidentally. Police issue handguns (I'm assuming it was a Glock but I didn't watch the video that closely) generally have a 7-8lb trigger pull.

I really can't believe that officer faces at most 11 years. If anyone else shot someone like that, it would be attempted murder and the possible sentence would be much harsher. He should be tried under the same laws that a normal citizen would be.

Can someone clarify this for me: The bikers were just riding along for awhile, and then the police decided to pull them over. They stopped as quickly as they could, and the officer just shot the one guy? Or were the bikers running from the police for some period of time before they stopped?

 

[VEGASRIDER]

I'm sure cops who have performed numerous traffic stops, especially at night have come across more movements from people inside their vehicles than the rider just did in plane sight of the cop. Did they all start shooting?

He's on a motorcycle, he's exposed. What better scenario for the cop? I don't consider a motorcycle as a "High Risk" vehicle during traffic stops. Yes the driver or rider is the variable, but if I had a choice to drqw my weopon against a vehicle, I would defninately choose to do so on a rider, just because the advantage you have is so great against the rider.

From this video, the next time I get pulled over, it makes me want to complete a U-turn and face the cop from the front. All you have to say to the cop is did you see that Ottawa Hills Traffic Stop?

 

[Kilbane83]

Ok so I just got to watch that and I gotta say that was a series of bad decisions for everyone involved. Not sure what they where thinking tearing off like that in front a cop, and the other guy going over the curb like a idiot. He switched lanes once, but that could have been to avoid something in the right hand lane, I know I do it all the time. They put their feet down at every stop sign. The cop rolled through those stops.

Why did the cop even have his gun already pulled out for what seemed like a routine traffic stop, and where the heck did that other car come from so fast? Only thing I can imagine is since the 2 stopped to talk at the stop sign the cop got really suspicious and after they tore off like that it seemed like they probably had something they shouldn't have had, drugs , guns, stolen wheels. That doesn't answer the other cop car question.. but hey I tried to see things from the cops p.o.v. I'm not sure how he would have been able turn all the way around to shoot the cop from his right hand side when the cop was to his left and behind while sitting on the bike. Regardless he shot first and asked questions later for sure.

My biggest issue is he didn't try to render any sort of aid to the victim. He left the 600lb+ bike sitting on the dudes leg, possibly being burned by the exhaust until some other bystander helped pick it up (and dropped it on the other side for good measure.) I didn't see the other officer approach after securing the other motorcyclist to render aid. I'm sure officers are trained in at least rudimentary first aid. He was shot and on the ground, the officer had holstered his weapon, he was no threat. The dude could have bled out on the street.

 

[sxty8goats]

The guy didn't even give the kid a chance. "Put your hands up 'Bang'." The kids arms didn't move at all. He turned like he was trying to hear what the cop said and was shot.

 

[RJ2112]

here's the link to the raw footage: RAW VIDEO: Officer White's dash cam footage (no sound) | Video | 13abc.com

The only place more officers get killed and injured than a traffic stop, is answering domestic disturbances. Especially after the bars close.

2:17 AM. Two modified bar hoppers, getting loud in a school zone, and residential area. Romping away from multiple stop signs, with a LEO clearly in view behind them. Can we say a couple of operators, that have had a few? Threat. 2 on 1. Threat. It's clear, if they had been sober enough, they would have run from the LEO. The only reason he was in sight of them was due to the speed bumps on the road they were riding along.

I watched that whole 5 minutes of video. I believe it was Micheal's bike that was equipped with 'ape hangars'. He couldn't maintain a 'normal' hand position if he'd wanted to. That contributes to the threat he presented to the LEO. Was he sober enough to understand any commands given him? How deaf was he, from his own pipes? Add in his buddy's loss of control, and he could very easily have pulled a weapon, or evaded. Threat.

I didn't see any 'colors' on the riders..... but you can bet that this was a thought high in the mind of the LEO.

Most late night shifts are the ones they stick the rookies on...... this was a bad situation all around. Looking at the LEO, he didn't seem to be a 20 something.

The LEO and the agency are going to pay serious reparations to the victim of the shooting. There's no question of that. Millions of dollars will change hands over this.

But think about it. The riders were obviously bar hopping, and raising some moderate 'heck' afterwards. In a residential area. By a school.

If you think that doesn't merit attention from your LEOs.......... This went south, no doubt about it. If you think that the actions of the riders did not contribute to this out come, I really have to wonder how you get to that conclusion.

1) don't drink and ride.
2) don't try and run from a LEO.
3) don't try and look like a gangster.
4) don't do all of the above, at 2:17 AM, in the company of someone who cannot maintain control of their vehicle.:thumbup:

 

[Mancolt]

In a residential area. By a school.

If you think that doesn't merit attention from your LEOs.......... This went south, no doubt about it. If you think that the actions of the riders did not contribute to this out come, I really have to wonder how you get to that conclusion.

1) don't drink and ride.
2) don't try and run from a LEO.
3) don't try and look like a gangster.
4) don't do all of the above, at 2:17 AM, in the company of someone who cannot maintain control of their vehicle.:thumbup:

RJ, I almost ALWAYS agree with you, but I will have to disagree for a second here. Being reckless in a school zone at 2:17AM is probably the best place to be reckless...there definitely aren't any teachers or kids around at that time. And again, being reckless at 2:17AM is probably when the streets and neighborhoods are the least crowded.

With that being said, being reckless is just that...it's not a wise decision. But I don't think the fact that it was 2:17AM in a school zone should have any negative effect on the situation. But doing anything dumb after 2:00AM (bars in PA close at 2:00AM) is just stupid...there are more police out and they're always on the lookout for drunk drivers, fights, etc.

I definitely agree with your 4 list points though!:thumbup: