Last effort before just getting rid of the headache...or taking to mechanic

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Your still going to have to access the spark plug hole(s) for either test.

The leak down test, at least you don't have to hook up the battery.

My leak-down tester has numerous spark plug adapters(different sized threads) and then snaps onto a hose that goes to the unit.
( https://www.otctools.com/products/cylinder-leakage-tester-kit )

The hose is pretty flexible but you how tight is in there.


You may very well have to remove the battery box (I'd think the radiator could stay) and go straight down.

 

[Bruno1989]

Okay it's been a while but I pulled the coils, plug wires and checked the crank sensor to the resistances in the manual and they are all fine.

Key off 13.2
Key on. 12.8
Ign on. 11.4

When trying to cranking the bike sounds like it's so close to running BUT after touching the exhaust pipes ( right after cranking ) cylinders 1 and 3 heat up almost too hot to touch. which is weird obviously bc the coils run 1and 4 then 2 and 3

Going to pull the starter and go thru it soon, if that doesn't help then I'm running out of ideas besides comp check or leak test

Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Motogiro]

Okay it's been a while but I pulled the coils, plug wires and checked the crank sensor to the resistances in the manual and they are all fine.

Key off 13.2
Key on. 12.8
Ign on. 11.4

When trying to cranking the bike sounds like it's so close to running BUT after touching the exhaust pipes ( right after cranking ) cylinders 1 and 3 heat up almost too hot to touch. which is weird obviously bc the coils run 1and 4 then 2 and 3

Going to pull the starter and go thru it soon, if that doesn't help then I'm running out of ideas besides comp check or leak test

Thanks for the info guys!

Why are you suspecting the starter when you have fire in 2 of your 4 cylinders!? I highly suspect you have a loss of compression if you've established your getting clean fuel and spark. Any error codes?:don'tknow:

Each fuel injector must be tested to make sure they are each allowing fuel. You know both coils are firing because you have spark in number 1 and 3 cylinders. If you definitely know you're getting fuel from all 4 injectors a compression test or leakdown test is in order. I think a compression test will be the test for you to do.

 

[FinalImpact]

From the left to right is 1 2 3 4. Right being you sitting in the seat looking ahead.

Ignition coil 1 & 4 are grounded by the orange wire from the ecu. 2 & 3 the grey wire. If you look real close at the coils, the polarity is embossed near the lug. The red wire is power and goes to the + plus spade.
These items need verified as spark at the wrong hole is not usable spark!

Lets say sh$t hit the fan and two cylinders are at 50psi or less of static compression. This thing would sound very strange while cranking. It would NOT be smooth and consistent. The load heard from the starter would be uneven. Does it sound even or does the cranking sound vary???

You'll know exactly what I mean if you pull two plugs and hit the starter.

I still want to know exactly what wires get hot and how long it takes them to get hot.
Heat is resistance. Which means the load is HIGH or the cables are bad and NOT delivering the current to the starter. CPS errors can be induced by slow cranking speeds.

Please share a audio track of it cranking with a fully charged battery and try to answer the questions.

Also, what is the battery cranking voltage??? Is it less than 9.5volts?

 

[Bruno1989]

No error codes. Battery voltage when cranking was 11.4, so well over 9.5.

Wires on one of the coils was put on incorrectly which I changed back, good info!

The red covered wire from the battery positive lead to the starter relay is the one that gets hot and the starter relay also gets hot all in about 4 or 5 5-10 sec holds of the starter button

I can't tell if it's turning over unevenly and I'm having trouble uploading my video of the cranking attempts, hopefully this works

[video=youtube_share;VT9Be_iRUnw]https://youtu.be/VT9Be_iRUnw[/video]

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It spins over plenty fast enough.

Its not even trying to start.

Back to basic's, pull each spark plug wire, with a known good plug, plug in and ground to metal while cranking.

Is each one firing while cranking?

 

[Bruno1989]

It has spark on each wire.

It has ran twice since I've had it, only long enough for me to rev a few times trying to keep it on and then died off.

When it has coughed and studdered (which obviously wasn't happening in the video) it's heated up the exhaust pipes of cylinders 1 and 3. Also it heats up the starter relay and red wire from the positive terminal of the battery, that's why I think something is amiss electronically but I've been wrong before...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Basic's again, you have spark,

We need fuel and compression.

Spritz some fuel down the throttle bodies (maybe a mister?) and see if it kicks. Do the plugs get wet with fuel?


You likely already know, BUT the engine should kick off immediately if fixed. Cranking for 15 seconds and again is
hard on the battery and starter and useless at that point (heating up parts for no reason at that point-it'll start or it won't)

 

[FinalImpact]

Agreed! ^^

Oh another TEST!!! With the air box lid off, hold the throttle open and hit the starter while placing your hand over each venturi/TB inlet while the spark plugs are in.
** Each should produce enough vacuum to pull your palm in slighty. Do ALL of them do this? **

Also, that does not sound smooth as if each compression stroke is imposing the same load on the starter! Like one or more holes does not build equal compression!

If it were mine and I had NO suitable compression gauge, I would remove 3 plugs leaving say #1, hit the starter. It should impose a load when #1 builds compression. Repeat for other 3 cylinders. Also, use your hand as a seal over the removed spark plug holes. When cranking each cylinder should try to blow your hand off.

What do #2 & #4 do?

I know it's a fresh charged battery but it seems like it cranks too quickly like it is low on compression.

Does it look like the valve cover or cylinder head have been off from it before?

 

[Motogiro]

Does sound like there is very low or no compression....Test for compression...

 

[Bruno1989]

The more I think compression the more I contemplate just buying a motor from eBay... Anyone have experience buying a motor from eBay? I see some low mileage ones for around 5/600$, guaranteed to run

I'm gonna try the hand test of the TB tubes and post, may order an adapter for my comp tester

it doesn't look like the valve cover has been removed ever but idk.

 

[Bruno1989]

Debating on just buying a new motor for 5/600$ on eBay, anyone have any experiences with swapping a motor on these?

Will do the hand to the TBs and post asap

Thought he last post didn't go thru sorry for the double post, couldn't figure out how to delete the post

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I wouldn't buying an engine yet, especially one you don't know.

A leak down tester is better than a compression gauge. But you need a small air compressor too
(which I assume you don't have)

You should be able to borrow a compression tester from Auto zone (with a deposit).
or invest in one. I have this one that works very well and wasn't terribly expensive
(good name too):

https://www.otctools.com/products/compression-tester-kit


If your ECM is toast and the "new" engine doesn't come with it, your in the same boat but
with a spare engine...

If you totally give up, find a good shop, talk with them. Trouble shooting shouldn't be an hour or two tops
to find out what's happening (say $200 in labor for 2 hours).


Your in north, NE Florida aren't you?

 

[FinalImpact]

I wouldn't buying an engine yet, especially one you don't know.


Your in north, NE Florida aren't you?

I see a road trip in your future!!!! :thumbup:

But ya, do not buy an engine when you have Zero Facts!
If this is wearing you down, pulling the engine may not be the answer either!

Verify what compression is asap. So, pull the battery, air box, and the mat over the head. Takes like 10". Now you have line of sight access to the plugs. Rent a compression tester and go to town....

Ps you need like a 10" long 3mm ball end allen driver to do the air box clamps. Maybe you find something undone along the wa?

Have you ever squirted oil into the TB intake?
Thats a lot of cranking w out running. It wont hurt anything! Tell us how it sounds after adding oil!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

He has little tools. I have the compression tester, compressor, leak down tester, spark testers, etc,
About everything I'd need to see what's happening (or not). I don't have a fuel pressure line tester thou.

Distance would be the issue.. Kinda like California, friggin long from one end to the other!

 

[FinalImpact]

Lets recap this leak down test.
Nutshell is place the firing cylinder on the compression stroke and charge the cyl with a known volume of air through the S-plug hole while holding the piston at TDC.

Or remove the exhaust and TB and plug them and repeat checking for air pressure increase at TB or Exh? In this case it would take some plugs and many gauges (guess not a likely path at home?).

Have you ever done it to the FZ?

Neither will resolve an out of time camshaft. But you could remove the cams and do a leak test that way...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

TDC on the compression stroke. The crankshaft MUST be locked up/ unable to spin.

Put your gauge in the spark plug hole (everything basically intact).

Hook up to an air compressor, over 100 PSI going in. Volume doesn't matter, pressure does..

Adjust your gauge for the 75-100 PSI (doesn't really matter). I use 100, its a little easier to find the leak, leakage.

With say 100 PSI going in the chamber, depending on the health of the engine, air will escape at a percentage.
That will show on the second (to the right) gauge.

All cylinders should be close to each other, 5 PSI is satisfactory. A difference of 10-15 PSI, start digging..

IE, an open, bent intake valve-you'll hear air coming out from that throttle body/carb.
Rings leaking, you'll hear come out of the crankcase, perhaps even feel it come out the dip stick tube.
Exhaust, same, it'd be coming out the header pipe.
Air bubbles in radiator, blown head gasket / cracked block

You don't want to remove the cams for this test.
IE, if the valve shim clearance is too tight, (holding a valve slightly open), with the cam removed, you just removed /fixed the leak..

If there is a leak, especially enough for an engine not to run, it will be very obvious, the air flow, noise, etc, where to look.

I have used it several times, never on the FZ, never needed to.

I do use it often on customers small engines I'm trying to get running again if the carb isn't the issue.
My neighbors 2 stroke weedeater. Ran like crap, nothing past 1/2 throttle. Said he pulled the cylinder rings were fine.
He moved and gave me the unit. Put the tester on it. You could hear the air escaping a bunch past the rings. I pulled the head/cylinder,
there was so much carbon on the rings, I don't know what he was looking at. I had a spare piston/rings and cylinder from another parts engine.
Swapped everything, easily getting back to 7,500 RPM's (Ryobi)

And agreed about the valve timing on Brunos bike. Could very well be off a couple of teeth. It'd still have compression but of course with ignition/combustion all being out of wack, no start/ poor running (which it did run for a short period of time)..


OTC leak down tester:
https://www.otctools.com/products/cylinder-leakage-tester-kit

 

[Motogiro]

One of the reasons I suggested a compression test is the OP will not have to think about TDC for each cylinder. A compression tester can be found on the cheap. Especially if there is less experience wrenching. For the purpose of getting an idea of where the failure is at this point, compression testing or leak down is the step to go to from what we've seen.

His motor spins fast enough it doesn't sound like it's a few teeth off on the cam...

 

[FinalImpact]

Hence me saying hold a hand over each TB and spark plug hole. You will get an idea when one is NOT like the others!

But ya, pull battery, aibox, and mat. Coils can hang to the side.

 

[Bruno1989]

I have a compression tester just need the right adapter to fit to these spark plug holes, also have an air compressor so one way or another ill def check this out next. I'll see what it's like w hand over TB and spark plug holes just bc

I have some tools, my main question is how does one tell TDC on the cyl you're trying to test? Also I've heard about doing something with the plug wires to make sure they don't mess something else up while doing a comp test... But have no idea if there's any truth to it or if I need to do something about it

I've rebuilt plenty of dirt bikes but they're single cylinder and the mark on the crank shows you where TDC is



Thanks for the info and I really am interested in getting the leak down tester. Will post ASAP