Interesting video on track body position / turning

[FinalImpact]

Not sure how many of you have done corners with the "look ma, no hands" technique, but if you watch the bars, the bike happily steers and counter steers for you! I Dont have a throttle lock, but there are some long steep downhill runs where I've done just that by pressing on the tank. Add in some upper body for sharper turns if need be.
The two go hand in hand as a married couple.

This is out of context but on one wheel, what initiates a turn? The lean.
/end derail...

 

[Erci]

The thing is that he tries to hard to convince people that body steering doesn't work whatsoever!

Which is obviously BS:

I think he tries just hard enough, because I believe he is 100% correct

The video you posted.. of course the rider is not using the handlebar to initiate the lean, but if you were able to see the handlebar at every turn, you would most definitely see that a small countersteer happens before the bike turns.
Yes it can be accomplished by just leaning / pushing on peg / pushing on tank, etc, but by far the most effective, quickest and precise way to turn is to push the grip in the direction of the turn (or to pull on the opposite grip).
The one thing that must happen for the bike to lean is a countersteer, so why not use the one control that is directly connected to the direction of the front wheel?

 

[Carlos840]

I think this is a bit of a chicken or egg kind of situation!

Body steering causes the bike to lean, which makes the handlebars move, or move the handlebars which makes the bike lean and steer...

I just don't like the fact that he tries to show that it is impossible to steer without touching the handlebars, which is clearly not true.

 

[Erci]

I just don't like the fact that he tries to show that it is impossible to steer without touching the handlebars, which is clearly not true.

That's not true. at 7m 15s mark, they actually show (and explain) steering without touching the handlebar.

And the most significant quote on the subject from the video: "countersteering: it's the only way to accurately steer a motorcycle"

We teach the same thing in MSF, but we don't go into nearly as much detail .. we simply tell students "press right to go right" and "press left to go left".

 

[Motogiro]

The thing is that he tries to hard to convince people that body steering doesn't work whatsoever!

Which is obviously BS:

No Steering input...Body weight steering only... - YouTube

That's not true. at 7m 15s mark, they actually show (and explain) steering without touching the handlebar.

And the most significant quote on the subject from the video: "countersteering: it's the only way to accurately steer a motorcycle"

We teach the same thing in MSF, but we don't go into nearly as much detail .. we simply tell students "press right to go right" and "press left to go left".

Counter steering is the fastest way to change the bike's position. Since the bike must lean in the direction of the turn the counter steering upsets the geometry in such a way to make it lean by folding it at the triple and causing the lean. Once the lean is established to the point the bike will follow the trajectory, little or no counter steering is needed and the natural gyroscope effect of the wheels keeps the bike stable in the turn as long as speed and angle are maintained through the turn. Many people really never think about what's actually happening but initiate the turn using CS naturally. They learned the feeling from the bicycle. Take CS and add body position that add weight to the inside of the turn and you'll need less CS and angle to maintain and get through the turn. Anything that makes the bike lean... weight or CS will change the bike's trajectory! Simple,interesting and quite fascinating!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ]Spock - Fascinating! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Misti]

I've been riding for a looong time, but admittedly track riding is new territory to me. I have attended CSS level 1, which has confirmed everything I knew about initiating lean: counter-steering.

This video makes no mention of using the handlebar whatsoever. What do you think?

Fastersafer-Ken Hill talking at the track about Body Position - YouTube

Bizarre, no mention of using the handlebar to steer the bike and several other things that I don't really agree with.

What's the gain on the chicken leg spread during braking? For hard braking I shift back but grip the tank (sometimes) as the seat alone wont hold me back. This way I'm not pushing as hard on the bars compared to not gripping tank.

I can see spreading your legs will transfer some weight rearwards, am I missing something else? Air brake effect, crotch cooling? Warning others?

Hahah crotch cooling, warning others I personally don't do the chicken leg spread during hard braking but prefer to grip the tank with both legs so that I don't slide forward into the tank. I still set up for the turn and get my butt slightly off the seat but don't put the leg out until I actually initiate the turn in (by pushing on the inside handlebar) and then I just let it fall out. Much less effort and moving around on the bike I find, and much less input into the bars with the handlebars because you are using your legs to grip the tank and remain stable.

Your weight shifts are potentially *masking* the handlebar input at this point. Shifting weight to the inside is a great way to reduce lean angle for crappy roads, as you mentioned, but in terms of turning.. nothing makes the bike fall over quicker than a small, but a very deliberate countersteer.

You are right, nothing makes the bike turn in quicker than a small but very deliberate counter steer. The more you have your lower body stable and connected to the bike the better able you are to deliver that small but deliberate press on the bar...

 

[FinalImpact]

One observation is that I know I push on the bars pretty hard to stand the bike up on exit. The sooner its up, full power can be applied.

Absolutely! In CSS, students are taught to pull the inside grip, rather than push the outside grip for the pick-up. When you do finally get to ride again, try to initiate lean using only counter-steering. When it's deliberate, it may shock you how quickly the bike can change direction and prove that nothing else is required to make it turn.

I love the part of the video (TOTW) with 2 riders on the no-BS bike (no body steering) with coach riding pillion.. showing that he can make the bike turn by pressing the grip with 1 finger in either direction. :thumbup:

Had to think about this and what I really do. Pretty sure I pull. While at my desk and mid fantasy (no one looking thankfully), I placed myself in a turn and at the apex hand was pulling. So it must be! Where is that selfies? lol

I suspect pulling has the advantage of moving weight forward and lower where as pushing does not.

 

[SweaterDude]

On that same topic, a majority of steering input is induced pushing on the tank with one knee. It happily falls in and we squirt out the other side. For snappier turns, bar input comes into play.
Fiz is no SS so I'm guessing the bar input is very different at their speeds.

bar input works the same up to some ridiculous speed, i forget the number but its explained best by the guys racing the Bonneville flats for the speed record. as the wheels arent exposed, its slightly different for them. but the basic gyro effect works up to faster than you'll ever go on a track/anywhere really, whilst cornering.

when you throw your body into the turn, generally a small countersteer will happen, regardless of if you intended it or not. if you dont believe me, try (in a parking lot of course) steering into the direction you wish to go, and lean the same direction. you will find it to be more difficult than if you relax. now when you relax and lean in again, watch your bars, they will slightly turn out and countersteer. its safest to try this on a bicycle, as it will produce the same effect.

 

[Ssky0078]

When you say "weight shift", do you mean sliding your butt off in the direction of the turn, or something else?
Body position should be about how you want to get through a turn .. going for speed, slow speed maneuver, minimizing lean.. whatever you are trying to achieve.
It should not be used to initiate turns. This is why I thought the explanation in the video was questionable. But as has been mentioned, counter-steer was implied.. everything else is in addition to it.

With my weight (240) if I shift/butt slide a half a cheek them I have to counter steer to keep the bike upright (push outward on the handlebar to keep the bike up) when the I begin the corner I lean from the waste to actually start to turn in. Most of the time I keep the handlebars relatively in the same position (counter steer or almost counter balance) and only if I want to suddenly increase the turn do I push in on the inside handlebar. I didn't learn this from anybody. I just started doing it when I was riding The Snake in California and noticed I could ride smoother and faster

 

[Ssky0078]

Counter steering is the fastest way to change the bike's position. Since the bike must lean in the direction of the turn the counter steering upsets the geometry in such a way to make it lean by folding it at the triple and causing the lean. Once the lean is established to the point the bike will follow the trajectory, little or no counter steering is needed and the natural gyroscope effect of the wheels keeps the bike stable in the turn as long as speed and angle are maintained through the turn. Many people really never think about what's actually happening but initiate the turn using CS naturally. They learned the feeling from the bicycle. Take CS and add body position that add weight to the inside of the turn and you'll need less CS and angle to maintain and get through the turn. Anything that makes the bike lean... weight or CS will change the bike's trajectory! Simple,interesting and quite fascinating!

Spock - Fascinating! - YouTube

What he said

 

[Ssky0078]

You are right, nothing makes the bike turn in quicker than a small but very deliberate counter steer. The more you have your lower body stable and connected to the bike the better able you are to deliver that small but deliberate press on the bar...

Maybe I'm not that stable with my lower body. I notice that is one of the biggest areas I get tired and lazy. I just depend on the Stompgrip

 

[Misti]

Maybe I'm not that stable with my lower body. I notice that is one of the biggest areas I get tired and lazy. I just depend on the Stompgrip

Stompgrip helps a great deal but so does gripping the tank with both knees, making small movements with your lower body, not hanging off too far, and sitting back in the seat a little bit so that your knee fits tightly into the tank cut out and has the strongest part pressing into the tank.

Quick steering changes are initiated with a deliberate press on the bar. Having a good stable lower body not only helps keep you locked onto the bike but helps you get the most out of your bar input by allowing you to press forward on the bar and use as little energy and effort as possible.

A good exercise is to put your bike on stands and try out different seating and body positions until you feel really comfortable and stable. Sit way forward in the seat and see how that has an effect on your arms and the angle to the bars. Sit in the middle and then sit way back and experiment with where you can get the best "lock on" and where you feel you can get the best and most effective press on the bars.

Thoughts?

 

[Ssky0078]

Stompgrip helps a great deal but so does gripping the tank with both knees, making small movements with your lower body, not hanging off too far, and sitting back in the seat a little bit so that your knee fits tightly into the tank cut out and has the strongest part pressing into the tank.

Quick steering changes are initiated with a deliberate press on the bar. Having a good stable lower body not only helps keep you locked onto the bike but helps you get the most out of your bar input by allowing you to press forward on the bar and use as little energy and effort as possible.

A good exercise is to put your bike on stands and try out different seating and body positions until you feel really comfortable and stable. Sit way forward in the seat and see how that has an effect on your arms and the angle to the bars. Sit in the middle and then sit way back and experiment with where you can get the best "lock on" and where you feel you can get the best and most effective press on the bars.

Thoughts?

From what I've experienced so far. If I'm going quicker, I will sit back, knees up and into the tank. I don't get that far off the seat any more, maybe 1/2 to 1 cheek off the seat. I found keeping my elbows relaxed and almost just dropping them down will make for smoother initiation of lean in. I will swing the chicken leg out to ??, air brake, start lean in ?? sometimes and notice I don't go as fast but it feels fun. Under hard braking I will use both knees, if I'm using down shift and engine braking then I will more than likely use just 1 knee and start leaning with the other.

I really need to get a track day in. Some of the stuff I do on the highway now is probably not ideal, but I've been safe so far. :squid:

 

[Erci]

I really need to get a track day in.

ding ding ding!! :thumbup:

 

[FinalImpact]

Got a ride in this weekend. Its been 3 months!
Observation was this - I pull; all corners going in, all corners coming out; EXCEPT when hanging off the bike - then I noticed I was pushing! :spank::spank: So, that needs some work!

I rarely hang off the bike but thought it'd be good practice should I get in too hot and need to pull it out by its hair. Historically when in trouble the last thing I want to do is shift weight abruptly and risk upsetting our stance. I still feel the same, so I guess this it training for if/when I really really really blow it? :-sigh-:

 

[Erci]

Got a ride in this weekend. Its been 3 months!
Observation was this - I pull; all corners going in, all corners coming out; EXCEPT when hanging off the bike - then I noticed I was pushing! :spank::spank: So, that needs some work!

I rarely hang off the bike but thought it'd be good practice should I get in too hot and need to pull it out by its hair. Historically when in trouble the last thing I want to do is shift weight abruptly and risk upsetting our stance. I still feel the same, so I guess this it training for if/when I really really really blow it? :-sigh-:

Just so we're on the same page: the pull / push you're talking about.. is that to stand the bike up or to initiate lean?

CSS (and most others) teach pushing to initiate lean and pulling to stand the bike back up.

The hanging-off thing.. definitely don't want to shift your body mid-corner to correct your line. The shift needs to happen before you begin rolling off the throttle. Moving from fully-upright to chin-over-wrist, however, can be done safely (easy to do without any handlebar or peg input) and can tighten up your line without changing lean angle drastically. :thumbup:
Google "hook turn css"

 

[FinalImpact]

Just so we're on the same page: the pull / push you're talking about.. is that to stand the bike up or to initiate lean?

CSS (and most others) teach pushing to initiate lean and pulling to stand the bike back up.

The hanging-off thing.. definitely don't want to shift your body mid-corner to correct your line. The shift needs to happen before you begin rolling off the throttle. Moving from fully-upright to chin-over-wrist, however, can be done safely (easy to do without any handlebar or peg input) and can tighten up your line without changing lean angle drastically. :thumbup:
Google "hook turn css"

WELL - I'm gonna have to play some more! Do you know how hard it is to remember two days ago???
Confirmed = pulling always to stand it up (exc when off the bike).
Subjective = I think I do both to initiate, but I really gotta pay more attention on this one. I traverse through many switchbacks and thats where I get mixed vibes as I'm setting up the next corner while still in an existing one so the action is smooth, but I'm not clear on the push/pull. Does that make sense? Just a straight into a line into a corner and out I'm pretty consistent. Push in, pull out. The switchbacks could be cleaner.

Off the bike - yes, make changes before corner entry.

 

[Misti]

WELL - I'm gonna have to play some more! Do you know how hard it is to remember two days ago???
Confirmed = pulling always to stand it up (exc when off the bike).
Subjective = I think I do both to initiate, but I really gotta pay more attention on this one. I traverse through many switchbacks and thats where I get mixed vibes as I'm setting up the next corner while still in an existing one so the action is smooth, but I'm not clear on the push/pull. Does that make sense? Just a straight into a line into a corner and out I'm pretty consistent. Push in, pull out. The switchbacks could be cleaner.

Off the bike - yes, make changes before corner entry.

Hahaha, yes hard to remember two days ago but good practice to pay attention and figure out exactly what you are doing on the bike. I push to initiate lean into the turns and to stand the bike up coming out of turns, most of the time it is push only for me but when speeds pick up and I really need more oomph then I do a combination of pushing and pulling! What other technique helps you get more oomph out of your countersteer?

 

[Erci]

What other technique helps you get more oomph out of your countersteer?

Definitely combination of push/pull at higher speeds for quick flick, but that's on FZ1.. can't wait to have my R6 on the track.. that bike wants to fall over if you so much as look at the inside grip!

 

[Misti]

Definitely combination of push/pull at higher speeds for quick flick, but that's on FZ1.. can't wait to have my R6 on the track.. that bike wants to fall over if you so much as look at the inside grip!

Aure, push pull combo helps! I find you really have to utilize this when you are flicking the bike through a high speed chicane. How can you utilize your lower body to help give you more strength/effectiveness in your push or pull though?