Hello Newman

[Hellgate]

If I hear of one more driver say that they like the new safer barriers I think I will puke. Isn't the danger and risk and daring feats of drivers that make a sport exciting? Just like if one more tree is taken down or a improved barrier is put up at Road America, I swear that I will lose interest of that track. Ok, probably not, but making the course safer seems to take some of the romance away. QUOTE]

This statement has been bugging me all afternoon, maybe I'm PTSD'ing...I've seen a lot of people hurt in sports and the military over the years and there is no heroism in injury at all. I can't watch Crash and Burn videos any more, and I can't even watch war movies any more. The reason being I've gone through some very big crashes on both the motorcycle and the bicycle. I've also seen Soliders hurt very badly and killed in training exercises. When I was young I dreamed of the glory of over coming the greatest obsticals and prevailing, regardless of cost. When I raced motorcycles, I kept going in pouring rain, and once in snow! That was dumb. I would ride canyons like the race track. When I did fall I thought it was cool to ride back home with roadrash, it was like wearing a medal.

In actual races I've seen the run of the mil broken collar bone, wrist, rib, etc. No big deal. The worst I saw, and it scared the carp out of me, was a fellow racer who had his foot slip off the footpeg in a 1st gear corner. It was in the "rat's nest" at Second Creek Raceway outside of Denver. His foot slipped, hit the pavement and bounced back between the spokes of his rear wheel (he had three spoke, ox cart looking wheels, Performance Machine or something) His lower leg snapped. I was in the pits and I could hear him scream over the 40 bikes on the track. They had to cut the back of the bike apart to get him out of the wheel without his foot falling off. He spent the next 2 years in a wheel chair with his leg in a halo/traction system. I'm not sure it he ever raced again.

Racing of any kind is a lot of fun and it is thrilling to watch a great dice, and be amazed at the skill of the riders. But to have un-needed, preventable danger in an event is never justified.

I will now step down off my soap box, thank you.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Regarding NASCAR, I couldn never figure out the idealogy of "teamates" in this sport. There is only one winner! Who cares who comes in second. The only team members would be the crew belonging to the winning driver. I could never understand why there is a conglomerate of drivers belonging on the same team, when there can only be one winner in a race. Just imagine if golf took the same approach as Nascar. Seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Hellgate]

Regarding NASCAR, I couldn never figure out the idealogy of "teamates" in this sport. There is only one winner! Who cares who comes in second. The only team members would be the crew belonging to the winning driver. I could never understand why there is a conglomerate of drivers belonging on the same team, when there can only be one winner in a race. Just imagine if golf took the same approach as Nascar. Seems ridiculous to me.

Yeah but is could be FULL contact golf! Now that would be exciting!

 

[HavBlue]

Regarding NASCAR, I couldn never figure out the idealogy of "teamates" in this sport. There is only one winner! Who cares who comes in second. The only team members would be the crew belonging to the winning driver. I could never understand why there is a conglomerate of drivers belonging on the same team, when there can only be one winner in a race. Just imagine if golf took the same approach as Nascar. Seems ridiculous to me.

Let me see if I get get you up to speed. In the early days of NASCAR they actually ran cars that were convertible and others with a top. As it turns out they also new very little of aerodynamics when it came to racing on a super speedway at a mere 130mph. As they figured out convertibles wouldn't go as fast they also learned about this invisible pocket of air that developed behind a car at speed. At the time it was known as a slingshot which we now call drafting.

Two cars will use less energy and travel faster over a given distance than one if they are in aero-lock (also proven by Mythbusters) and if you are on your own you will be what is known as freight trained. As time moved on owners found that two teams would increase the chances of winning more races and if that second car (the team mate) was up at the top their would be a significant increase in their share of the purse. A very good example of this is this years Daytona. The winner's share for that first race was $2,500 and 50 years later that was roughly 1.5 million dollars of an overall purse worth about 18 million dollars. Yes, that checkered flag goes to one car and the team associated with that car however, there is a ton of loot for the first ten cars in the race. Having that team mate on a restrictor plate track is almost a must anymore.

 

[wolfc70]

This statement has been bugging me all afternoon, maybe I'm PTSD'ing...I've seen a lot of people hurt in sports and the military over the years and there is no heroism in injury at all. I can't watch Crash and Burn videos any more, and I can't even watch war movies any more. The reason being I've gone through some very big crashes on both the motorcycle and the bicycle. I've also seen Soliders hurt very badly and killed in training exercises. When I was young I dreamed of the glory of over coming the greatest obsticals and prevailing, regardless of cost. When I raced motorcycles, I kept going in pouring rain, and once in snow! That was dumb. I would ride canyons like the race track. When I did fall I thought it was cool to ride back home with roadrash, it was like wearing a medal.

In actual races I've seen the run of the mil broken collar bone, wrist, rib, etc. No big deal. The worst I saw, and it scared the carp out of me, was a fellow racer who had his foot slip off the footpeg in a 1st gear corner. It was in the "rat's nest" at Second Creek Raceway outside of Denver. His foot slipped, hit the pavement and bounced back between the spokes of his rear wheel (he had three spoke, ox cart looking wheels, Performance Machine or something) His lower leg snapped. I was in the pits and I could hear him scream over the 40 bikes on the track. They had to cut the back of the bike apart to get him out of the wheel without his foot falling off. He spent the next 2 years in a wheel chair with his leg in a halo/traction system. I'm not sure it he ever raced again.

Racing of any kind is a lot of fun and it is thrilling to watch a great dice, and be amazed at the skill of the riders. But to have un-needed, preventable danger in an event is never justified.

I will now step down off my soap box, thank you.

I do not mean unnecessary risk, there is always risk. Perhaps I was not expounding correctly. I am all for safety gear, but changing the course to make it safer, removes some of the mystique of the course. Cutting down trees is one example. People pay big money to drive the nurburgring knowing there is virtually no room for error, it made the course famous. It takes skill to navigate it swiftly.
Drivers like Paul Frere, Phil Hill, Olivier Gendebien, Wolfgang von Tripps drove primitive cars on courses with little or no driver protection. Racing was a dangerous sport, and many died.

Protective gear can save your life, no doubt about it, but when safety interferes with the results, eyebrows can be raised. I just hate going to the superbike races and hearing people complain about how difficult and dangerous the course is. I believe that is the point. If you don't like the track simply do not race there, don't force changes to the course because of your fear. I believe the journalist Peter Egan has complained about this at Road America before. For some reason I am having trouble putting my exact thoughts in to words right now.

And of course I do not mean to downplay (or even remotely compare) the real heroism that you and fellow service men/women do on a daily basis, or the sacrifices that have been endured.

 

[Hellgate]

I do not mean unnecessary risk, there is always risk. Perhaps I was not expounding correctly. I am all for safety gear, but changing the course to make it safer, removes some of the mystique of the course. Cutting down trees is one example. People pay big money to drive the nurburgring knowing there is virtually no room for error, it made the course famous. It takes skill to navigate it swiftly.
Drivers like Paul Frere, Phil Hill, Olivier Gendebien, Wolfgang von Tripps drove primitive cars on courses with little or no driver protection. Racing was a dangerous sport, and many died.

Protective gear can save your life, no doubt about it, but when safety interferes with the results, eyebrows can be raised. I just hate going to the superbike races and hearing people complain about how difficult and dangerous the course is. I believe that is the point. If you don't like the track simply do not race there, don't force changes to the course because of your fear. I believe the journalist Peter Egan has complained about this at Road America before. For some reason I am having trouble putting my exact thoughts in to words right now.

And of course I do not mean to downplay (or even remotely compare) the real heroism that you and fellow service men/women do on a daily basis, or the sacrifices that have been endured.

I have to agree on changing the course. If an apron is made wider, or a run off is smoothed that is one thing but to totally change it is another, you are right is changes the character of the course. The chicane at Daytona has completely changed the nature of the 200. The Nurburger Ring is a very good example, people who drive there know what they are getting into.

I like to race cyclocross bicycles. That sport is typically done in the winter in the rain, snow and mud. Well in Texas we don't have much of any of those until the Spring. When the weather gets bad racers complain about the mud or how hard a course is. Well that is the point, is the challenge.

Personally I liked the more technical race tracks over the speedways, the speedways always scared me. At Firebird I would go up two counter teeth over a typical road course, the strait was about 1/2 mile long! My little RZ350 would push 145ish. I figured anyone with big enough cajones could twist a throttle, I like to drag my knee and brake hard so a tighter course suited me better.

No down play taken at all, I don't know of a single Service Member who considers themselves a hero, we are just doing our job because we like to do it well, take care of our fellow Soldiers, and serve our great country.

 

[taco]

If drivers have the balls to run 230mph let them, it is part of the risk, and that is what racing is about..., driver talent has less to do with it. A truly talented driver with a unrestriced and properly set up car will go faster than a rookie with a poorly set up car, it racing basics, and what NASCAR built upon. Look back to the early years of the sport. The Grand National series was basically stock cars, which gave the addage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday". Some cars had clear advantages, as did some drivers (Curtis Turner comes to mind) had talent, and could win in any car they drove, that is talent. The cars back then varied wildly, to run an Oldsmobile one race, then to switch to Ford the next was how the sport grew.

If I hear of one more driver say that they like the new safer barriers I think I will puke. Isn't the danger and risk and daring feats of drivers that make a sport exciting? Just like if one more tree is taken down or a improved barrier is put up at Road America, I swear that I will lose interest of that track. Ok, probably not, but making the course safer seems to take some of the romance away.

I am going to be racing my first year this year in an open wheel winged sprint car. Let me tell you I am concerned about safety, I like racing and I like competition. I don't have any kind of death wish. I want you to think about what you are saying. Let me get this straight you want me or anybody else that has the guts to go out there and give it a go to have less safety equipment and leave dangerous track conditions around so you can have some kind of romanticized view of the danger of racing while you watch us risk our lives from the bleachers.

Most race car drivers aren't crazy and don't want to die, they just enjoy the sport and want to live to enjoy it another day. They choose to participate in a dangerous sport accepting the risks but not looking to take on risk just for the sake of danger.

I don't want to burst your bubble but when it comes to racing balls doesn't equal talent. Even in a sprint car which looks like wide open balls to the wall madness sliding sideways on dirt over 100mph every driver I have talked with about what it's like to drive has said smooth is fast crazy isn't. A crew chief for a friend of mine commented on another driver saying that this driver mistakenly thought in order to drive a sprint car fast you had to "drive fast".

There are plenty of people out there that are just naturally fearless and have the guts to do stupid things but don't mistake that for talent. There are plenty of talented drivers that don't want to be put at risk just to maintain your romanticized view or racing or because they can find some no talent insane thrillseeker that will try and run a car in unsafe conditions.

When you talk about someone just not competing if they don't like a track. For a pro or someone in a points chase that just isn't an option.

Race car drivers are sane people with families and kids that want to grow old with them. They are not as you seem to think the modern generation of folks that go over niagra in a barrel or evel knievel.

I think every safety measure we can put into racing that doesn't effect the competition is a good thing. Whenever a fan sitting in the stands makes a suggestion to improve the racing like removing restrictor plates or unhooking the cars remember that a human being is sitting in that car.

 

[HavBlue]

Gentleman, if you could take the most famous tracks in the world and make them faster as well as safer would this not bring racing to it's goal of creating a better show for the paying public? It killed me when they put two chicanes in the 3 mile long straight at Le Man and when they put one in at Watkins Glenn I came unglued. Admittedly these tracks are better (in terms of safety) because of it.

I do not watch racing to see wrecks nor do I watch to see people burn and die like Eddie Sacks at Indy. I watch to see teams achieve a maximum effort in combining speed with efficiency, tactics and a calculated aggression. The sport remains dangerous and skill is a requirement so why not offer the finest in safety available. To me, it can only make things better.

 

[wolfc70]

I am going to be racing my first year this year in an open wheel winged sprint car. Let me tell you I am concerned about safety, I like racing and I like competition. I don't have any kind of death wish. I want you to think about what you are saying. Let me get this straight you want me or anybody else that has the guts to go out there and give it a go to have less safety equipment and leave dangerous track conditions around so you can have some kind of romanticized view of the danger of racing while you watch us risk our lives from the bleachers.

Most race car drivers aren't crazy and don't want to die, they just enjoy the sport and want to live to enjoy it another day. They choose to participate in a dangerous sport accepting the risks but not looking to take on risk just for the sake of danger.

I don't want to burst your bubble but when it comes to racing balls doesn't equal talent. Even in a sprint car which looks like wide open balls to the wall madness sliding sideways on dirt over 100mph every driver I have talked with about what it's like to drive has said smooth is fast crazy isn't. A crew chief for a friend of mine commented on another driver saying that this driver mistakenly thought in order to drive a sprint car fast you had to "drive fast".

There are plenty of people out there that are just naturally fearless and have the guts to do stupid things but don't mistake that for talent. There are plenty of talented drivers that don't want to be put at risk just to maintain your romanticized view or racing or because they can find some no talent insane thrillseeker that will try and run a car in unsafe conditions.

When you talk about someone just not competing if they don't like a track. For a pro or someone in a points chase that just isn't an option.

Race car drivers are sane people with families and kids that want to grow old with them. They are not as you seem to think the modern generation of folks that go over niagra in a barrel or evel knievel.

I think every safety measure we can put into racing that doesn't effect the competition is a good thing. Whenever a fan sitting in the stands makes a suggestion to improve the racing like removing restrictor plates or unhooking the cars remember that a human being is sitting in that car.

Ok, perhaps balls was an incorrect term. Perhaps I should have said confidence instead. Paul Frere once stated in an article (Road & Track I believe) that the once great tracks he raced on had been dumbed down in spite of the modern advances in race cars. In the 1950's cars had horrible brakes, poor suspension, no fire protection (Nomex and fuel cells) and mediocre tires. In an effort to improve safety (just like the speed limits on interstates, safety = slow) they added chicanes and restrictor plates (my biggest pet peeve) or grooved tires, yet the cars are 1000 times safer and instead of letting things progress, cars are bunched together, which seems to cause even more accidents.

I am not saying that driver and spectator safety is not important, just do not let it effect the outcome of the race. You know the risk involved, you know your limits and fears, these determine how you drive. Yes some drivers are known for stupid maneuvers and antics. They quickly become infamous for the same reason. In amateur racing, if you do not like a course, you can not race it. If you are a pro, then perhaps a career change may be in order. I'm not griping about pro riders, I just hear people who occasionally race and complain about how unsafe a course is. These same people will brag about how fast they went on the straight, but never mention lap times. And most of all racing is about passion and mastery of machine, occasional fun may be had too.:thumbup:

I may have had some improper wording in trying to explain why I drifted away from NASCAR. I in no way wanted to come off sounding like I enjoy watching death on the race track. I just enjoy watching talent, open and unrestricted. Not everyone is created equal, I'm as graceful on the race track as I am on the dance floor (have two left feet). So I guess I am envious of those that can run around a course and hit apex after apex cleanly, which is why watching them is so enjoyable. And seeing them bunched together is infuriating!

 

[HavBlue]

Wolf, racing is about safety as well as competition. If the level of competition is equal it will be difficult for the various participants to do anything but run together. In the past competition was loose and because of the rules it allowed for variables which spread things out and allowed for the run away winner. As represented by the current competition levels this is no longer true. Things like safer barriers, head and neck restraints, restrictor plates and yes, even the car for tomorrow all bring things to a point where safety and competition are the rule of the day in any particular form of auto racing.

Now, if you are willing to cut things loose and go for it all think about Kitty O'Neil who in 1977 did just that establishing the all out world record quarter mile time which still stands today. Her weapon of choice, a liquid fueled rocket powered rail that ran 1,320 feet in 3.23 seconds at 412mph. This was the second of 2 runs to establish the time and speed. When there is only one individual driving or challenging then the race can only have one death or injury. When there are a few hundred folks around and 40 other drivers things change.

From 1985 through 1989 I drove a winged 17' Cole T4 flatbottom drag boat. My wife refused to watch me drive and there were more than a view heated arguments in my house over that ride. To me it was beyond fun and at the same time it was very dangerous. Since that time the sport has become much safer with capsules and SCUBA for the driver. We all want to go fast and if it is reasonably safe faster yet but there comes a point when safety can't keep up and this is where we have to be smart enough to slow it down and regroup.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Let me see if I get get you up to speed. In the early days of NASCAR they actually ran cars that were convertible and others with a top. As it turns out they also new very little of aerodynamics when it came to racing on a super speedway at a mere 130mph. As they figured out convertibles wouldn't go as fast they also learned about this invisible pocket of air that developed behind a car at speed. At the time it was known as a slingshot which we now call drafting.

Two cars will use less energy and travel faster over a given distance than one if they are in aero-lock (also proven by Mythbusters) and if you are on your own you will be what is known as freight trained. As time moved on owners found that two teams would increase the chances of winning more races and if that second car (the team mate) was up at the top their would be a significant increase in their share of the purse. A very good example of this is this years Daytona. The winner's share for that first race was $2,500 and 50 years later that was roughly 1.5 million dollars of an overall purse worth about 18 million dollars. Yes, that checkered flag goes to one car and the team associated with that car however, there is a ton of loot for the first ten cars in the race. Having that team mate on a restrictor plate track is almost a must anymore.

Thanks for your explanation, it makes sense in the way that you need another car or cars to help you win. If thats the case, they shouldn't make the sport so individualized, and make it more of a team sport. In other words, a driver winning means the entire team should be awarded the victory along with the purse, whether you place 1st, 2nd or last. A win is a win and shared by all team members, just like any other sport that uses the term "team" or "teamate."

 

[HavBlue]

Thanks for your explanation, it makes sense in the way that you need another car or cars to help you win. If thats the case, they shouldn't make the sport so individualized, and make it more of a team sport. In other words, a driver winning means the entire team should be awarded the victory along with the purse, whether you place 1st, 2nd or last. A win is a win and shared by all team members, just like any other sport that uses the term "team" or "teamate."

You're thinking of the term "team" like that of baseball or football and while the NASCAR team is similar in some respects it is different in that all bets are off in the end when it comes to crossing that finish line. The teammates will work and draft together as much as possible throughout any given race but given the opportunity to finish first they become individualized within the last few laps if they have a chance to win. In regards to overall winnings, the 2007 NASCAR Cup champion was Jimmie Johnson and his teammate who finished second in the overall standings was Jeff Gordon. Together they work for Hendrick Motorsports. Johnson's team won $7.6 million while Gordon's team won $7.1 million. Interestingly, the 2007 Daytona 500 champion Kevin Harvick finished tenth in the overall standings and his team won $7.4 million.

The folks at Hendrick won 16 of 36 races in 2007 and now they have added Dale Earnhardt Jr. to their dream team which has many folks worried in that they fear that team will be unstopable in 2008. On the other hand the Toyota chassis/engine combination has shown to have 15 more horsepower at the rear wheel so those teams could possibly have a small advantage however, the fastest car/team doesn't always win.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Now does any city welcome Nascar like this?

 

[HavBlue]

Cool pics, you rock Vegas.. Now all I can do is hope that #88 car gets there first....