Hardest technique to master?

[necrotimus]

...

A friend of mine once said that riding is like playing a video game and the object is to always have an out, and to be able to predict what the other vehicles are going to do. Having a wider vision, and being able to see the whole picture really helps...

Misti

I have read about and practiced the drills for increasing your 'wide screen awarness' and they did help but to be honest nothing has helped me more than playing video games. The trick is to have a large enough tv where you can sit close enough that the edges are in your peripheral vision only. A lot of action happens out there and it won't be long before you are identifying threats and reacting faster.

If you want a less exciting option you can search peripheral vision training.

 

[lonesoldier84]

You are not leaving yourself any margin for error if the pegs are grinding as you go through those hairpin turns. It sounds like you are doing something different with your body position in the tighter turns than you are in the sweepers, and your throttle control could be different.

Without getting your weight "way off the bike" in low speed corners, what do you think you could do with your body and with the throttle that would make those kinds of corners better?

Misti

indeed. in the sweepers the pegs arent on the ground but the corner speed is high and im off the bike. in the hairpins, the pegs are grinding and im not off the bike nearly as far most of the time.

my solution to my problem with hairpins has been to just slow down for em, keep the pegs off the ground, and take it easy on em. This next season I'll be doing way more trackdays, but last season most of the hairpins i saw were around town or on highways......not the place to be pushing it to the limit.

the problem I have with hairpins is the intuitive "feel" for the corner. In a car I have a good sense of the racing line I want to take through a hairpin. On a bike I have good sense of the racing line I want to take through a sweeper. But on a bike I don't have a good sense of the racing line to take through a hairpin. I am fine until the speeds get higher. Then I am not EXACTLY sure what amount of speed I should bleed off before I dive into the corner.

I read in twist of the wrist 2 that the ideal racing line for a bike is what the bike will want to do naturally based on proper throttle input through the corner to get that 40/60 weight distribution.

the problem with hairpins, for me personally, is that when i am doing a comfortable but somewhat quick pace around a hairpin, I am fine. When I am going any quicker than that, my survival reflexes kick in and I am backing off the corner trying to bleed off speed wherever possible, though by that point it's usually too late and I need to commit to the corner. So I commit to the corner, already in survival mode, and the pegs are grinding and my body position is less than ideal. As I round the apex of the corner I'll get back on the throttle and carry the bike through the corner, usually aware of how much cleaner I COULD have taken it.

I've got some more reading material for sport and track riding for the winter here, but like TOTW2 I dont think it deals with hairpins specifically.

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond though mate. You are a credit to this forum.

 

[macy]

The hardest technique for me to master is smoking a cigar while riding at speed.
Oh and have you noticed that none of the aftermarket people make a motorcycle ashtray.......Tee-Hee

 

[Misti]

indeed. in the sweepers the pegs arent on the ground but the corner speed is high and im off the bike. in the hairpins, the pegs are grinding and im not off the bike nearly as far most of the time.

my solution to my problem with hairpins has been to just slow down for em, keep the pegs off the ground, and take it easy on em. This next season I'll be doing way more trackdays, but last season most of the hairpins i saw were around town or on highways......not the place to be pushing it to the limit.

the problem I have with hairpins is the intuitive "feel" for the corner. In a car I have a good sense of the racing line I want to take through a hairpin. On a bike I have good sense of the racing line I want to take through a sweeper. But on a bike I don't have a good sense of the racing line to take through a hairpin. I am fine until the speeds get higher. Then I am not EXACTLY sure what amount of speed I should bleed off before I dive into the corner.

I read in twist of the wrist 2 that the ideal racing line for a bike is what the bike will want to do naturally based on proper throttle input through the corner to get that 40/60 weight distribution.

the problem with hairpins, for me personally, is that when i am doing a comfortable but somewhat quick pace around a hairpin, I am fine. When I am going any quicker than that, my survival reflexes kick in and I am backing off the corner trying to bleed off speed wherever possible, though by that point it's usually too late and I need to commit to the corner. So I commit to the corner, already in survival mode, and the pegs are grinding and my body position is less than ideal. As I round the apex of the corner I'll get back on the throttle and carry the bike through the corner, usually aware of how much cleaner I COULD have taken it.

I've got some more reading material for sport and track riding for the winter here, but like TOTW2 I dont think it deals with hairpins specifically.

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond though mate. You are a credit to this forum.

Ok, based on your reply I'd have to say that there are two main things going on here. First is your entry speed into the hairpins, and second is your throttle control through them. The first will influence the second one.

If I were you I would work on getting your entry speed right for hairpin turns and that probably means going in slower than you already are. You have heard the adage, "Slow in, fast out?" Start by entering the turn much slower than you normally would and then get your throttle control perfect.

Perfect throttle control, according to Keith Code, is getting on the gas ASAP once the bike is turned, and then rolling it on smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn.

Once you have your throttle control mastered through those types of turns THEN work on upping your entry speed a little bit at a time until you are able to go into the turn faster, AND still have good throttle control. If you find the survival reactions kicking in again, bring the entry speed back down again until your TC is good, then bring it back up.

If you still have issues with setting your entry speed then we have to look at what is CAUSING you to get the entry messed up, and that almost always has something to do with your visual skills.

I always say that coaching is like being a riding investigator because we have to really investigate what is going on with each person's individual riding and figure out what is CAUSING the SR's to kick in. Each rider is different and needs to understand WHY they are doing something, and WHY it is better to do it a different way before they are going to be able to make permanent changes in their riding.

Let me know how it goes, and please be careful on the street, like you said it is not the place to be pushing the limit.

Misti

 

[yoshiki]

hi
i have been wanting to go to a school to learn more about advanced/track riding. but there isnt any in my country.

so what i can only do is view videos and read materials online..

i have problems blipping the throttle and maintaining throttle control throughout the bend. sometimes i dont even know if i have blipped it correctly. how do we really know that i have done it correctly? and for maintaining throttle control, i always think i am going too fast into the bend. my sequence is something like this, 1) close throttle tap on front brakes and blip early, get my body into position, just before the bend i open throttle again.
have a bad habit of adjusting my body as well. another thing, both the ball of our feet is supposed to be at the footpegs? if so, means we dont use any rear brakes when engaging the bend?

just came back from a short ride, trying to blip. i think my hand and leg coordination is very poor. most of the time i release the clutch late, end up i throttle for nothing.

 

[Misti]

hi
i have been wanting to go to a school to learn more about advanced/track riding. but there isnt any in my country.

so what i can only do is view videos and read materials online..

i have problems blipping the throttle and maintaining throttle control throughout the bend. sometimes i dont even know if i have blipped it correctly. how do we really know that i have done it correctly? and for maintaining throttle control, i always think i am going too fast into the bend. my sequence is something like this, 1) close throttle tap on front brakes and blip early, get my body into position, just before the bend i open throttle again.
have a bad habit of adjusting my body as well. another thing, both the ball of our feet is supposed to be at the footpegs? if so, means we dont use any rear brakes when engaging the bend?

just came back from a short ride, trying to blip. i think my hand and leg coordination is very poor. most of the time i release the clutch late, end up i throttle for nothing.

OK, sounds like you have WAY too much going on at once here and that you are too busy heading into the turn. I would work on first things first and based on what you said here, that would be your throttle control.

You mention that you open the throttle again just BEFORE the bend. We get a lot of our students who try to open the throttle before they have actually turned the bike and what that does is it makes it more difficult to turn the bike and it risks you running wide in the corner and having to adjust.

The bike will respond better if you get the bike turned first and then put on the throttle asap. "Once the throttle is cracked on it should be rolled on evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn." Keith Code- Twist of the Wrist II

Start by eliminating all the other "stuff" you are doing, like downshifting and moving your body right before the turn...maybe just sit neutral on the bike and keep it in one gear for a while while you practice your throttle control. Get a sense for how the bike handles when you apply the throttle after you turn the bike and then pick one other thing to work on.

Let me know how this goes first and after we can discuss downshifting and look at some of your other questions. I hope that helps

Misti

 

[yoshiki]

thanks alot for the advise. i shall put aside body positioning first. but keeping to 1 gear, hmm. i got to at least down the gear to get the correct gear (with correct rpm) to get prep for the bend right?

i ride just about 365 days a year, i can hold the throttle fine at a certain speed (i suppose) but whenever i got to engage a bend, i will just get scared, then i will brake and close the throttle when my peers have proofed to me that the bend can be taken at a higher speed than what i am going through.

PS: does showing a video my friend took from his cam help you access and provide advise better?

 

[Jacobien]

I'd have to say, not dumping the throttle when I accidentally pop a off the line wheelie. I get a fright an then drop the front so hard that I almost hit my head against the bars. Haha!

Secondly, hitting the apex of a corner. Sometimes I miss it so far that I need to brake mid corner! That leads to understeer, so I am lucky I am still alive.

Great post idea! :cheer:

 

[yama4566]

I must say the first to second gear jump sometimes gets me caught up on a bad shift every once in a while if I'm not power rocketing from a stop light.

 

[Misti]

thanks alot for the advise. i shall put aside body positioning first. but keeping to 1 gear, hmm. i got to at least down the gear to get the correct gear (with correct rpm) to get prep for the bend right?

i ride just about 365 days a year, i can hold the throttle fine at a certain speed (i suppose) but whenever i got to engage a bend, i will just get scared, then i will brake and close the throttle when my peers have proofed to me that the bend can be taken at a higher speed than what i am going through.

PS: does showing a video my friend took from his cam help you access and provide advise better?

Hi Yoshiki,

At the Superbike School we do the first track session all in 4th gear with NO brakes so that our students don't get too busy with changing gears, and so that they learn to anticipate and judge their entry speeds better. With no brakes you have to have a much better sense of your speed and it allows you to focus a bit more on your throttle control.

You mention that you often get scared as you turn into a corner and then shut off the throttle. This is THE MOST COMMON reason why people have difficulty with good throttle control. They enter a corner in too fast, or at a speed that they perceive as being too fast and instinctively roll off the throttle. Unfortunately rolling OFF the throttle will make the situation worse as it will put more weight on the front tire.

So, I would suggest working on entering into the corner on the slow side and working on having perfect throttle all the way through the corner. This way you will have a stable and predictable bike and will exit faster. Once you are confident with your throttle control you can begin entering the turns a little bit faster as long as your throttle control remains good.

Start slowly and then work your way up in increments.

If you are still having trouble with your entry speed then we can work on a few visual exercises that might help but I would start with TC.

Let me know how this works and you can maybe post a video later on.

Cheers!
Misti

 

[Misti]

I'd have to say, not dumping the throttle when I accidentally pop a off the line wheelie. I get a fright an then drop the front so hard that I almost hit my head against the bars. Haha!

Secondly, hitting the apex of a corner. Sometimes I miss it so far that I need to brake mid corner! That leads to understeer, so I am lucky I am still alive.

Great post idea! :cheer:

Ohhh hitting the apex of a corner is a good one and can be a pretty hard technique to master. Let me ask you this, when you turn into a corner what EXACTLY are you looking at? Are you looking at the apex, are you looking at the outside edge of the track/road, are you looking all the way through the corner to the exit? What do you look at and for how long???

Misti

 

[yoshiki]

Hi Misti

last weekend i went for a ride on some twisties, on gear 3 (the road was quite tight) didnt apply the brakes. i did find myself being able to concentrate on my throttle control much better.

maybe will try this a few more times. what would be the next step to learn?

thank you very much

Yoshiki

 

[Misti]

Hi Misti

last weekend i went for a ride on some twisties, on gear 3 (the road was quite tight) didnt apply the brakes. i did find myself being able to concentrate on my throttle control much better.

maybe will try this a few more times. what would be the next step to learn?

thank you very much

Yoshiki

Good I'm glad you feel like you have improved with your throttle control a bit.

The next step really depends on what else is going on with your riding. If you feel like your throttle control is working really well then you might want to start working on being less busy at the turn entry. You mentioned in your earlier posts that you tend to move your body position at turn in or mid turn and that you struggle a bit with downshifting. I would work on getting the sequencing of your downshifting right and then try to set up your BP early so you aren't busy at turn entry.

Or let me know what other issues you are struggling with.

Does anyone else find themselves feeling really busy at turn entry? How can you alter your riding habits so you don't feel so busy?

Misti

 

[DownrangeFuture]

My biggest issue right now is emergency braking in a turn. It's how I dumped the bike, and it makes me a bit scared to practice it really. Most of the parking lots around here suck and they're usually full.

I know the basics from MSF. Stand the bike up, then brake. Separate braking and turning. But I'm pretty sure I'm still "pushing the bike down" instead of leaning with it. So I'm probably not turning right to begin with.

Any advice on that?

 

[Yasko]

For me the hardest thing is to keep the front brake covered at all time...:spank:
I'm getting better because It's my #1 priority at this time...

 

[DownrangeFuture]

In my MSF class, we got told not to cover the brakes at all times. Similar to in a car, we were only supposed to cover the brakes if we felt the situation warranted it. :don'tknow:

Seems to me that the guys that cover their brakes all the time, are the guys that run with their brake lights on all the time.

A buddy of mine told me to try taking every corner like I was at warp speed. Knee out, elbow to knee, try and touch the inside handgrip with my chin. After a few days of looking like a retard taking barely-worth-mentioning turns like I was a motogp racer going for time... Turning was much easier for me. Even when I wasn't turning "all out". Now it's on to throttle/brake control, and why I sometimes go way wide turning into my neighborhood at 30 when I've hugged the curb at close to 60?

 

[Misti]

My biggest issue right now is emergency braking in a turn. It's how I dumped the bike, and it makes me a bit scared to practice it really. Most of the parking lots around here suck and they're usually full.

I know the basics from MSF. Stand the bike up, then brake. Separate braking and turning. But I'm pretty sure I'm still "pushing the bike down" instead of leaning with it. So I'm probably not turning right to begin with.

Any advice on that?

Sorry for the late reply, it's been a while since I've been here

Good question, emergency braking mid corner is a tough one. You are correct when you say that you should stand the bike up first and then brake but it seems like you are a bit confused about how to do it.

So, pretend you are going through a right hand turn and you need to stand the bike up straight mid corner...how do you do it?

Try to explain to me exactly what you would do to stand the bike up and I'll see if you are on the right track

Hope I can help....

Misti

 

[Sparkybean]

I just can not seem to master those wheelies where you sit on the handlebars!

 

[wrlomas]

I'm going to vote for riding like you are invisible and assuming that NO ONE sees you. Always planning an escape route around other drivers and being careful.

 

[Misti]

I'm going to vote for riding like you are invisible and assuming that NO ONE sees you. Always planning an escape route around other drivers and being careful.

This is a good point and something that is hard to do. How do you go about riding as if you are invisible and planning an escape route? What exactly do you do differently when you ride this way as opposed to riding without such awareness?

Misti