Fffing frustrated with particular breed of new riders...

[philosopheriam]

Folks,

This is a ruminaton on a post made in the touring forum, which I copied here for reference:

**********************
On the way to Deals Gap, I was stopped at a light in Maryville, TN (highway 411). There must have been a previous accident at this intersection, as the ground was covered in a 50ft slick of oil and antifreeze. I was at the leftmost part of the lane, as I was trying to avoid being dead center in this giant pile of goo.

Within seconds, I was knocked feet-first onto the ground and my bike went down on it's left side between my legs - I was still standing upright with my hands on the bars. When I looked behind me, it was my buddy's 1982 Suzuki GS650G that had crashed into me. He hit the oily pile of goo and slid over 30ft into the back of my motorcycle.

The stator cover of his bike hit the R/R corner of my swingarm and essentially side-swiped the R/H side of my bike. After hitting me, his bike went down on its R/H side.

Damage to my bike:
Gouged swingarm
R/H passenger peg and mount completely broken
R/H main peg and mount completely broken
Rear tailsection bent at the R/H peg mount
L/H clutch lever bent
Miscellaneous scratches on RH and LH engine covers
RH plastic frame cover completely broken off/missing
etc, etc...

Damage to his bike:
Shattered stator cover
Destroyed stator
Destroyed flywheel
Bent handlebars
Busted brakeline
Oil everywhere
etc, etc...

Both of us had our gear on, he needed 12 stitches in his knee, I received a nasty bruise on my right ankle. My bike is currently at a specialized collision shop for motorcycles in Knoxville, TN (Shrader's Cycle Center). My buddy's bike is sitting in my parents garage in Sevierville, TN - I have all of the parts on order to put it back together.

Overall, the cops were insanely courteous and my buddy's insurance company (Geico) is not giving me any hassle when it comes to having my bike fixed. Also, I'm lucky enough to have parents that lived nearby with a truck and trailer to get the bikes home.

Damage grand total:
My bike - almost $3800, a hair away from being totaled
His bike - $800 in parts alone

Lessons learned:
Watch for oil slicks
Always let new riders ride in front of you
***************************

Here's what's now sticking in my craw several weeks later - my buddy briefly rode motorcycles 5 or 6 years ago, and I encouraged him to take the MSF or similar beginner's riding course before getting his motorcycle license. Of course, he protested with a myriad of excuses:

1. The course is too far away
2. It's booked and I don't want to drive out to the suburbs to sit on standby
3. The pay course in the city is $300 and it takes two days (that's a long time in his mind)
4. I've been riding a bicycle for a long time and the two types of riding are similar
5. I'll just be careful
6. (insert other convenient excuse here)

Now, I'm not saying that had he taken the MSF that our accident would have been avoided. However, in my opinion, the MSF teaches people how not to develop bad riding habits - lessons learned can be as simple as learning to avoid oil slicks, watching out for things in traffic, etc.

Moreover, now that my buddy has been riding for a few months, his sister, girlfriend, and female friend all want to learn how to start riding. His sister even went to the DMV and got her learners permit. Unfortunately, all of them have this immensely irritating hipster attitude that because they ride bikes all over the city (Chicago), they will be apt motorcyclists.

JUST WHAT THE F DO I HAVE TO DO TO CONVINCE THESE PEOPLE THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE AN INVESTMENT IN THEIR OWN SAFETY!?!?!?!?

Riding a friggin bicycle does not make you a motorcyclist, plain and simple. I do not profess to be an expert motorcyclist, however, I think I'm smart/humble enough to realize that I don;t know everything and that my skills will improve with time. Moreover, I decided to take motorcycling seriously and start with a decent foundation - I made the 3-day commitment and took the MSF.

My rant is not just directed at my buddy, but all new riders in general. Motorcycling can be one of the greatest joys in your life, but with a bit of recklessness and arrogance, it can get you killed.

I feel better now...

 

[FIZZER6]

Sorry to hear about the accident. At least no one was serious injured.

It's pretty normal for the police in that area to be reasonable...they see bike accidents all the time...it's just another day for them in the Smoky Mountains area.

I feel the same way about people who are too clueless to learn the skills needed to ride safely on the street. It's nothing like driving a cage on the same street. What amazes me is how many people (new and veteran riders) who wear little protective gear (other than helmet). You don't have to have a previous accident on your record to realize that going down on the interstate wearing nothing but a T-shirt and Flip/flops is going to seriously Eff you up! :spank:

 

[Erci]

I was a very experienced cyclist when I came back to motorcycling and I too thought that it would help.. and I suppose to a degree it did, BUT.. assuming that you can just jump on a moto and be a pro because you can ride a bicycle is about the same as assuming you car drive F1 car because you know how to drive a Ford Explorer.

 

[Cali rider]

Even though I have been riding for 34+ years on the roads of Los Angeles, I decided to take the MSF course back in 2003 for the first time. I had read many positive articles about it and felt it was worth my time and money to sharpen my skills. It was worth it for just these 2 reasons alone:

1- I was taught to actually practice emergency braking on a regular basis. I quickly integrated that into my routine and developed a controlled technique to stop any bike as fast as possible without fear of losing the front end.

2- It was emphasized that you need to leave a greater margin for vision and reaction time as you get older. It seems obvious now, but I didn't really acknowledge that I am getting older and what was easy now requires more effort and anticipation.

Bottom line: Never be that person who thinks that he wouldn't benefit from training. Would any of you attempt to fire a gun/pilot a plane/deep water dive without some previous instruction? This activity is just as dangerous!

 

[Erci]

I cut my mom's hair once.. never had formal training. She didn't speak to me for 2 weeks :rof:

 

[Wolfman]

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink.

 

[McLovin]

MSF teaches people how not to develop bad riding habits - lessons learned can be as simple as learning to avoid oil slicks, watching out for things in traffic, etc.

You said it! MSF teaches you to be street smart, it's not a track school. The instructors do their best to create the habits and present the most commonly encountered dangers of street riding.

It needs to be mandatory :thumbup:

Having the right attitude is so important.

Show your friends some videos and pictures of crash survivors/aftermaths. Send them links with lists of good riding habits, there is a ton on the internet! You need to plant that seed. I go past the financial part and emphasize this with my friends, people really need to understand what you can break on your body during a crash and how long it takes to heal, thats, if it ever does.

 

[greg]

do you guys not get any kind of insurance discount for completing the MSF?

insurance here can be expensive enough, i can only imagine how high it would be if you didn't need to sit a test or even have basic training to ride anything!

 

[McLovin]

do you guys not get any kind of insurance discount for completing the MSF?

insurance here can be expensive enough, i can only imagine how high it would be if you didn't need to sit a test or even have basic training to ride anything!

Some states and some insurance companies do. It all depends i think.

 

[ohgood]

Folks,

..... it was my buddy's 1982 Suzuki GS650G that had crashed into me. ...

i'm with you here, but:

did he offer you pay your deductible for YOUR insurance ?

your unpaid doctor bills ?

your gear that insurance might forget about ?



a buddy is a buddy, and being one means righting wrongs to -said- buddy. also, he should have immediately said "**** man you were right, i'm taking the MSF to save both our lives someday" or something similar.

a self-inflicted bike wreck is one thing, but into your buddy is entirely different.

since we're ranting....

one of the apprentices at work has a goldwing (dads) and a new to him (free, with title) cb450 ptwin. he has no moto-endorsement. he will eventually get the cb450 running, and inevitably ride it on the 20 year old tires it has now. yes, really. he says he won't go fast, and is 'learning' on the goldwing which is not insured, not in his name, and not in good condition.

i showed him pictures of road rash, explained skin grafts, and explained that doing everything he is is irresponsible, undersireable, and makes ALL OF US ON TWO WHEELS look bad.

what did he say ?

he shrugged it off. "i'll be careful".

he has no idea what panic braking is. or swerving. or gravel. **** son, rant on, do it. maybe someone will listen out there.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Now, I'm not saying that had he taken the MSF that our accident would have been avoided. However, in my opinion, the MSF teaches people how not to develop bad riding habits - lessons learned can be as simple as learning to avoid oil slicks, watching out for things in traffic, etc.

QUOTE]

Not only do we cover this in class, we actually show everyone how to avoid it in a video. And show you what to do in case you find yourself in that situation.

New riders who do not take the class end up thinking that riding a motorcycle is more about physical skills, but in reality it requires more mental skills. You're friend is living proof, comparing it to riding a bicycle.

Knowing how, where and what to look for so you can anticipate bad things from happening so you don't have to rely on your physical skills is the key to success. Not saying your physical skills are not important, as you need these skills too. That is why it's important to practice on a regular basis using correct technique.

Cost is irrevelant, you can't put a price on safety or your life or somebody's elses life. But if price is an issue, believe it or not, in the long run, it will wash out or might even save money as you will get a discount from most insurance companies, anywhere from 10-30%.

Some people are stubborn though, you tell them the short cut to success and they end up learning the hard way. Hopefully your other friends will learn from this experience and decide to take some good advise from a seasoned rider.

 

[fb40dash5]

I just started riding this February. I've wanted to ride for about 10 years, but the stars never lined up... and it was a PITA to try to get a motorcycle endorsement on my MD license while in the military in NC.

Here in Oregon, they're graduating making an MSF course or the Oregon rider's course mandatory for a new MC endorsement. This year it's everyone under 31, going up 10 years a year. I'll say this: the riding portion of the course is great practice if you haven't ridden ever/in a long time. It's good to get out and actually learn the RIGHT habits, rather than going out on your own in a parking lot and potentially learning the WRONG habits. Most of the classroom portion though, just like what's mentioned in here, should be common freaking sense. Don't brake hard in a turn, avoid gravel and slippery stuff, ride within your limits, wear your gear, etc... You shouldn't really need someone to tell you most of those things. That said, I think requiring a course is a great idea... beats learning from Uncle Bob the Harley rider whose best advice is "Loud pipes save lives!"

As for insurance, I know here there's a requirement that you get a discount for completing an MSF/rider's course (why must OR have their own version of everything?), but doesn't specify any amount... it could be $1 a year. On my old bike I was at the minimum already ($75 a year for Progressive) and had to add extras just to actually see any discount.

 

[malicious439]

Like a lot of people here already mentioned you cannot MAKE them take the course. Just tell them that you refuse to ride with them. No matter how much they protest that they know what they are doing, they will inevitably screw up.

Just throw in there that if they kill themselves from their own stupidity then you'll be the one are their funeral telling them, "I told you so."

I had a friend that I got into riding, he used to ride bicycles a lot but nothing major and he was decently out of shape. At first he refused to take the course, I just told him I would never ride with him until he took the course because he would become a liability to himself and everyone else around him. He eventually took the course before getting his bike and hes glad he did, you learn so much about riding that you wouldn't normally learn until your face is on the asfault like a cheese grader.

Hopefully it will help but there are A LOT of new riders out there that think they are too cool for school basically, not to say there weren't any before. There just wasn't the volume or resources available to everyone then.

 

[dxh24]

I've been riding dirt for most of my life, and i know alot of guys who refuse to take the MSF course because they have also been on the dirt for 5+ years. I however fully plan on taking the basic and probably an advanced MSF course if it is offered.

The only reason i signed up for the road test rather than straight to MSF was because i didn't know about it.

Bottom line: whether i pass my road test or not (hopefully the first rather than the latter) I'm going to take the MSF course because i'd rather pay some cash to have a little more piece of mind that i'll know how to ride safely in certain situations rather than wing it and hope for the best.

Like previously stated, why be cheap on something like your safety? Those who think you're too good a rider to take the MSF course, please, put your ego aside and take it :thumbup:

 

[Signal 50]

Motorcycling weeds people out. Plain and simple. I know you care about them, but let them do their thing. Encourage them to get good gear and set them free. The MSF class is not the end all be all of motorcycle safety. They sound like the type of people that will have one ****-your-pants moment and give it up for the safety, security, and thoughtlessness a vehicle provides. It sounds like you have them figured out and from what I gather from your original post, they sound like the "I had a bike once" people, not safe, proficient, enthusiastic motorcyclists that so many people on here are.

I have only been riding for 3 years, but I have found myself a solid group (www.bandofriders.net check it out!) dedicated to giving off a good image of sport riding. I gave up trying to preach to people about gear, saftey, etc. I just nod along when they tell me their plans, getting this bike etc. Those are the people for whom motorcycling is a fad.

 

[philosopheriam]

i'm with you here, but:

did he offer you pay your deductible for YOUR insurance ?

your unpaid doctor bills ?

your gear that insurance might forget about ?

Well, he hit me, so this bill goes on his insurance, so, no deductible...

Also, I wasn't injured, so no doctor bills...

My gear wasn't damaged, either...

Three is a charm, right?

In any case, Geico has been pretty easy to deal with - they quickly offered to replace any broken gear, pay for medical bills, towed my bike to the shop, etc...

 

[ohgood]

Well, he hit me, so this bill goes on his insurance, so, no deductible...

Also, I wasn't injured, so no doctor bills...

My gear wasn't damaged, either...

Three is a charm, right?

In any case, Geico has been pretty easy to deal with - they quickly offered to replace any broken gear, pay for medical bills, towed my bike to the shop, etc...

excellence in threes !

 

[rolliew]

I have been riding off road for over 30 years and still took the safety course when i got my street endorsement, it's all about staying alive for me.

 

[Mortech]

I've been off a bike since 84 and let my OH endorsement lapse while i was in the military . Now I'm planning to buy a 08 FZ6 and I do intend to take the WA MSF since it means I don't have to take the WA road test and I get a discount . I figure at 48 its the best thing to do ......

 

[txlyman]

I tell ya what.. I had my permit and put 1k miles on my bike waiting for my msf date ( i signed up the day i got my permit and had to wait 3 months) Anywho, being 21 and never riding before I figured I'll be the odd man out and go get the class so I can had more "tricks up my sleeve." Come to find out, I had already developed bad habits in my riding. Also, CT REQUIRES an msf in order to get a license as of jan of 2011.


So , I'm sure all other states will be jumping on this bandwagon and will have plenty of new riders having knowledge. Not saying they'll all be perfect riders.. but they'll have an idea of what to do in situations. :thumbup: