Engine breaking rattle... and more

[Pawciorc]

First of all I must say: I hate FZ6 transmission, clutch and abrupt initial throttle response. Secondly I was expecting smooth and quiet idle. Yamaha's engine is far from that. Even though I have installed APE manual CCT it is not perfect-now I can hear valves
If FZ6 is a city bike why the heck the transmission is so user unfriendly? Shifting in a traffic is a horror. One mistake in throttle/clutch operation and you experience a hammer slam on the engine (or maybe it is only mine).
1) Every time I do engine breaking and after advance some throttle the f...ing thing knocks. It is quite fine when the engine is cold; the hotter it is the more I it knocks and more I hate it.
2) No matter if the engine is cold or hot when I start ridding I MUST hear a knock from rear wheel area. Unless I stopped with no engine breaking.
3) Another thing is following: I am approaching traffic lights with clutch lever pulled to the handle bar (clutch cable adjusted within the spec). When advancing and closing the throttle to have smoother downshifts I can hear the same knock from the transmission/gearbox/driveline, that appears after advancing throttle from engine breaking (obviously before downshifting).
4) And if the all above was not enough today another annoying thing joined the team. I noticed that no matter what gear I am at (321, above wind is too loud), when I do the engine breaking, approx at 3000 rpm, rattling noise appears at the front sprocket area. It is quite and barely noticable, but I can even feel it with my feet.

The bike is 2006 S1, has below 15000 km on the clock, I recently changed the oil. The chain slack is within spec, regularly lubed. Recently removed front sprocket cover to see if the nut is fine and I got the newer one so it shouldnt be the issue.

Please Guys, help me to be a happy owner of this beautuful bike. Because at the moment I can say I am in love with its look, breaks, handling and power. The transmission is the worst thing I have ever had to deal with...

 

[Motogiro]

Well you could have a sprocket and chain wear issue. Chain slack and alignment of the rear wheel are very important. For alignment I use a MotionPro tool so that you can sight down the chain with a rod telling you that the rear sprocket is pointed true. Remember that tightening the axle can change the alignment and chain slack so you'll have to pay attension. I would also pull your rear wheel and check the cush drive to ensure nothing is damaged and that all the rubbers are present. You could have unusual play in the output shaft of the transmission.

 

[Pawciorc]

Thx for your advices.
The chain and sprockets look really good. It seems like they are in factory settings- meaning noone re-adjusted them. Besides engin temp wouldnt effect the clunky sounds if they were generated by chain/sprockets issues.
How to find out if the output shaft or the tranny has a slack larger than normal? Can you do me a favor and measure the distance you can roll your bike forward and backwards with engine off and 1st gear on? I have noone in my area to compare.
Any idea about point 3 of my complaints?
And point 4- why it appears only when ebgine breaking? I can accelerate with fully open throttle and it is smooth.

 

[Motogiro]

First your chain slack and wheel alignment must be measured to know if it is within specification. You can't say it looks factory. It sounds like you have the chain wanting to leave the front sprocket and this alone can be related the noises you're talking about. The chain wanting to leave the front sprocket can be from a combination of things. Wear, alignment and slack. No matter what your doing with throttle and clutch it's related to your drive train and it sounds like you have a drive train issue.

Sprockets might look okay to you. I recently replace my sprockets and chain and the sprocket looked good to me. When I compared them to the new parts I could see the difference. They weren't bad at all but they had wear. I maintain my bike myself and I am pretty strict about my chain cleaning a lubing so I was able to get a lot of miles out of my chain and sprockets but I was starting to see the links were no long as relaxed. I figure new chain should go with new sprockets and I'm very happy with the way it rides.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wor...YwU5aJHIr1oASI44LgAQ&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAg#imgdii=_

Without you doing a check on your alignment and chain slack it would be hard to determine how much play there should be in your output shaft. There should be a spec. for the shaft in the service manual. Besides my bike is the Suzuki SV1000s Lol!
Good luck and let us know how it works out.

 

[major tom]

The issue of a sudden light switch clutch, abrupt throttle response, and too light of a flywheel is something that proper gear change technique will definitely improve. As you upshift, lightly preload the the lever before de-clutching. Then momentarily close the throttle, clutch it quickly and the up shift is smooth as glass.. Down shifting is just plain hard to do smoothly. Experience is the only thing......
All your noises are hard to relate to. Should be as quite as any high quality Japanese bike

 

[FinalImpact]

I have no complaints of that nature at all.
I do fully agree with the SV1000 owner, it sounds like you have too much slack. Do you have an owners manual and does it have the center stand? With the wheel hanging down you measure just behind the screw in the swing arms chain wear guard. Right where the lower guard ends.

Drive chain slack:
45.0–55.0 mm (1.77–2.17 in)

To check the drive chain slack
1. Place the motorcycle on the centerstand.
2. Shift the transmission into the neutral position.
3. Spin the rear wheel several times to locate the tightest portion of the drive chain.
4. Measure the drive chain slack as shown.
5. If the drive chain slack is incorrect, adjust it.

Roughly speaking, if you push it up firmly so as to create a measurement point (Call this Zero)and then pull it down, it should move 2". To tight and not happy, too loose = not happy.

Remove the front sprocket cover and spin the wheel in both directions by hand. The chain should completely straighten on its on showing no visible kinks. If any links fail to straighten on their own, you likely need a new chain.

I personally have not found a lube that lasts to my satisfaction past 400 miles. As such when its clean I lube it at roughly 200 mile intervals until about 6 ~ 700 miles and clean it and repeat. Last year I was on allot of gravel roads and it got cleaned much more often.

Something else - not all of us are found of Mobile One oil. The gear box is crunchy, the shifts harsh, and the engine vibrates more. Dump it and try something else if this product is on your bike.

Good luck!

 

[darius]

I'll add that initial throttle response is abrupt on mine unless the throttle slack is set just right.

I like near zero slack where a smooth roll-on will tension then immediately open the throttle with linear delivery.

 

[iSteve]

You may want to try a heavier oil if you do a lot of city driving in hot weather. Also instead of using the engine to brake under 3000rpm at low speeds, just pull in the clutch and use the brakes. The FZ6 engine really shines at high rpm's, it's also very smooth in the midrange. Below 3000 rpm's is not where the FZ wants to be. You may also want to try a smaller front sprocket and maybe a larger rear to let the engine rev a little.

Oh yea, make sure your idle is in spec too.

 

[Pawciorc]

Thanks for all replies. But it seems now that there is really sth wrong with my bike. Noone refered to point 3 like never experienced that. I guess it is time to leave the bike at mechanic hands.
One last thing: anyone, please remove front sprocket cover, switch on 1st gear, spin your rear wheel and count how many teeth the front sprocket turns from limit to limit. Such inspection will eliminate chain slack from this topic.
Thx in advance.

EDIT:
I rode the bike to work- smooth as a butter. But the distance is like 1 km. After I ride it for a few kms more it starts doing all the bad things. In 4 hours during my lunch break I will remove the front sprocket cover and count my free play on the output shaft by how many teeth the sprocket turns.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks for all replies. But it seems now that there is really sth wrong with my bike. Noone refered to point 3 like never experienced that. I guess it is time to leave the bike at mechanic hands.
One last thing: anyone, please remove front sprocket cover, switch on 1st gear, spin your rear wheel and count how many teeth the front sprocket turns from limit to limit. Such inspection will eliminate chain slack from this topic.
Thx in advance.

EDIT:
I rode the bike to work- smooth as a butter. But the distance is like 1 km. After I ride it for a few kms more it starts doing all the bad things. In 4 hours during my lunch break I will remove the front sprocket cover and count my free play on the output shaft by how many teeth the sprocket turns.

I just checked mine. Measuring the outer edge of one tooth in first gear, it'll rotate just over ONE TOOTH ,(stop to stop) 1.1 probably...

As noted above making sure the chain is clean and working properly is a big help. When mine is just lubed, while under way (steady throttle), it'll "flow" nics and smooth, NO vibrating, period. Keeping the clutch cable lubed makes a big difference and as posted above, keeping throttle slack tighter (more than specs) makes a big difference.

If all the above suggustions have been followed and your issues really start showing up when hot (and the the engine is staying within normal collant temps), I would be changing to a different oil (IMO motorcycle specific, semi synthetic or full synthetic), as that's the only thing really changing (its thinning out of course once hot) 10w40.

 

[Pawciorc]

Ok, my rotates 1 tooth as well. So seems like it is ok.
When the bike stops by the slack limit do you hear a clunk/click/knock from the gearbox?

 

[FinalImpact]

What oil is in this engine/trans? Also an AUDIO TRACK would really help!

****
From the other thread I posted this: Something else to think about is to pull the right side clutch cover, disassemble the clutch and verify the nut holding the clutch basket is tight. It could make a clunk like this.
****
Has anyone taken the time to inspect the oil filter? As in cut it open?

Do tell, anyone have any of this going on?
Case one: the NUT is NOT STOPPING THE SPROCKET MOVEMENT ON THE SHAFT! All of the metal dust turns to rust and the shaft and sprocket are being damaged. Throwing the nut, washer, sprocket away is a good first choice before the shaft is damaged!

Case 2:
Looks like this one has never lubed the chain!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ok, my rotates 1 tooth as well. So seems like it is ok.
When the bike stops by the slack limit do you hear a clunk/click/knock from the gearbox?

With fairly gentle back and forth (on the CC), in first gear, yes, there is a solid clunk in both directions in the gear box. Its simply play in the gear box..

Re the clunking in the rear wheel/area, as Motogiro stated, there are cushions inside the rear sprocket carrier to help the clunking when switching into gear. If your missing those, it would make a whole lot more noise as there's a big gap where those bushings would be. Wouldn't be real good for the gearbox either..

Putting a torque wrench on the front sprocket nut and checking the torque is to spec's would take but a couple of minutes...

 

[Pawciorc]

Just removed again the front sprocket cover. I dunno what was wrong with my eyes but:
1. I got the old type nut- still, firmly protected with the bent washer
2. The chain already leaves small dents it's on the plastic part of the sprocket.
Does it mean the sprocket/chain needs replacement? I also tried to pull off the chain from the rear sprocket and it was really hard to do it. I was able to pull it off about 1 milimeter.
The teeth look really good. But it is just my eyeballed opinion. The only thing that concerns me is that at the moment i bought the bike the chain looked like a new one, shining. After application of the lube the sleeves arent supossed to be shining. So perhaps the previous owner didnt lubricate the chain and it is simply worn out?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I know the PO to my bike and the chain was lubed ONCE in 4,500 miles. Once I got the bike (at 4,500 miles), I was able to stretch the life of the chain to 12,000 miles (with cleaning good lubing, etc) before replacement.

Mileage means nothing if its NOT MAINTAINED.


Common indicators of a worn chain:

Kinks NOT straightening out,
Fairly deep notches in the ft STOCK sprocket,
Noticable "hooking" while looking at the teeth on the sprocket,
The chain making more noise and literally be felt thru the pegs as it rotates
(will be speed related). A specific "click" while rotating is very common

 

[Pawciorc]

To TownsendsFJR1300- So just slight dents in the plastic part of the sprocket are still ok? I mean I had to look really close to notice them. You seem toi be a helpful guy so may I ask you for another favor? I just tried to reproduce the clunk sound during my ride and at 1,2,3 gear at lower than 3000 rpm sudden closing and reopening the throttle causes the sound. Would you be so kind and try the same at yours, pls?

To FinalImpact- I have now Silkolene Pro4 10w40. Before it was some Pulione. Both sinthetic oils. Really no difference before and after the change. As regards the nut holding the clutch basket. I saw a video of a guy replaccing clutch in his R6 and it seems that the mentioned nut has no protection against loosening. If it was loose in my bike for some period of time is it possible it didnt unscrew completly?

 

[darius]

I also tried to pull off the chain from the rear sprocket and it was really hard to do it. I was able to pull it off about 1 milimeter.

Can you measure and provide to us your current amount of chain slack (total up and down) at its tightest point?

 

[Pawciorc]

I measured in various points and it is approx 4.5 cm.

 

[FinalImpact]

FWIW: looking at the sprocket nut having its tab staked means nothing other than it hasn't moved! It could be torqued to SPEC and THAT MEANS NOTHING as it can still move! In some cases it can move under load if the parts are worn. i.e. if it got loose at some point it may require replacement. If you loosen the nut and the gear can rotate a small amount on the shaft, replace it.

Point: It can be at the proper torque and staked and the GEAR CAN BE MOVING ON THE SHAFT MAKING A CLUNK under load. Unstake it and remove it and inspect it. This gear being loose on the shaft is MORE likely than the clutch basket as its under greater load.

If all of the rollers on your chain do not spin by finger tip (yes, test all of them), the chain is still suspect. I would clean the daylights out of it, buzz it down the street and lube it till its dripping and again CONFIRM every roller spins!

That is what I would do if it were mine....

 

[Pawciorc]

Ok, but still I suspect the noise is from inside of the engine- the warmer it gets the more noisy the clunk is.