Easiest technique to master?

[Misti]

Set your lane position early. Pick your turn in point. Get your seating position set on the bike before you start to brake. A bit of back brake initially to settle the chassis then off, simultaneously ease on the front brake to get some weight over the front wheel, then brake a little harder to compress the front end and steepen the steering angle. Arms gently flexed at the elbows and weight inside. Turn in, with a neutral or slightly gaining throttle to keep everything nice and stable. Gently off the brakes upto the apex. On the gas and start to stand the bike up as you see your exit. One long, slow, deep breath going in, and one long, slow, exhale coming out.

Feels lovely when you get it right.

I agree with most of this, especially setting your position, having a good turn in point and getting your body into place before you start to brake. However, I disagree with the suggestion to use the back brake. I use front only, unless I end up in the dirt. And I'm also not sure about your throttle control. You mention turning the bike with neutral throttle and then waiting to get it rolling?

What would the benefits to this be as opposed to turning the bike while being off the gas and then rolling it asap once the bike is turned, as we coach at the Superbike School?

Misti

 

[k1c]

I agree with most of this, especially setting your position, having a good turn in point and getting your body into place before you start to brake. However, I disagree with the suggestion to use the back brake. I use front only, unless I end up in the dirt. And I'm also not sure about your throttle control. You mention turning the bike with neutral throttle and then waiting to get it rolling?

What would the benefits to this be as opposed to turning the bike while being off the gas and then rolling it asap once the bike is turned, as we coach at the Superbike School?

Misti

Now how am I going to dispute any statement that ends with, "as we coach in Superbike School"?

By neutral I mean neither accelerating nor slowing with the throttle. I'm not really talking about riding on the track as it seems that for most of the time on the street the throttle doesn't need to be completely off. In fact I can, and do, accelerate all the way through some corners if there are no obvious objective dangers evident. I've had the rear spin up often enough in tight corners that I prefer to have a tiny bit of throttle in hand, which I find helps make the transition from the apex to being as hard on the gas as one dares, a little smoother. I guess, on the rare occasions I really go piling into a bend, that the throttle is off, and does get rolled on asap on exit. I don't think that I mentioned "waiting" though.

Truth be told I rarely use the rear brake either but.... there is a certain amount of benefit to getting everything you can out of the brakes initially, even if the rear is only on for a moment. And there are a lot of world class racers that make ample use of the rear even when exiting corners! So I think that its something of a preference. Once weight has transferred to the front the issue becomes moot anyway. Of course if your a slider then a little dab of rear brake is mandatory. No? I don't see, and I'm not good enough to employ, 10/10th's braking during street riding.

 

[Misti]

Now how am I going to dispute any statement that ends with, "as we coach in Superbike School"?

By neutral I mean neither accelerating nor slowing with the throttle. I'm not really talking about riding on the track as it seems that for most of the time on the street the throttle doesn't need to be completely off. In fact I can, and do, accelerate all the way through some corners if there are no obvious objective dangers evident. I've had the rear spin up often enough in tight corners that I prefer to have a tiny bit of throttle in hand, which I find helps make the transition from the apex to being as hard on the gas as one dares, a little smoother. I guess, on the rare occasions I really go piling into a bend, that the throttle is off, and does get rolled on asap on exit. I don't think that I mentioned "waiting" though.

Truth be told I rarely use the rear brake either but.... there is a certain amount of benefit to getting everything you can out of the brakes initially, even if the rear is only on for a moment. And there are a lot of world class racers that make ample use of the rear even when exiting corners! So I think that its something of a preference. Once weight has transferred to the front the issue becomes moot anyway. Of course if your a slider then a little dab of rear brake is mandatory. No? I don't see, and I'm not good enough to employ, 10/10th's braking during street riding.

I think the thing with the rear brake is that it is waaaaay to easy to lock it up and cause more problems than good by riders that don't know what they are doing, plus, it often acts as a crutch for mistakes in entry speed. Riders enter a turn in too fast and instead of working on why they might be entering turns at the wrong speed, they compensate by always using the rear brake in the middle of the turn. It's funny because at the Superbike School we do a no brakes exercise for the first session, and so many students sneak the rear brake on thinking that we aren't going to notice!

Some people also think that using the rear brake helps to "settle" the bike mid corner. Again, more often than not this is compensating for poor throttle control. Poor throttle control will make a bike feel unstable. While you didn't mention "waiting" to roll on the throttle per say, you talk about neutral throttle and not necessarily accelerating (rolling on) through the corners. The main purpose of throttle control is to stabilize the bike and this is done by transferring the weight off the front and onto the rear so that the suspension is set in the optimal range, 60% rear and 40% front. This is done by rolling ON the throttle, as Keith would say, "smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the turn". Neutral throttle won't achieve the optimal weight transfer.

Now, we are not talking about hauling ass through a corner, just getting the gas cracked on ASAP once the bike is turned and rolling it on gently throughout the remainder of the turn.

This is not just a track riding technique but is useful on the street as well for optimal stability throughout the turns. Does that make sense? Is that what you would say you are doing with the throttle in the turns or is it slightly different?

Cheers and thanks for the great discussion!

Misti

 

[Wavex]

I found myself using the front + rear on the street to slow the bike down before the corner, then I usually let go of the rear brake first, then modulate the front until I feel I can stop braking completely (usually just after starting to lean the bike) and while I let go of the front brake I gently roll on the throttle through and coming out of the turn.

On the track I barely ever use the rear brake...

To answer the original question: I am getting really good at mastering the "falling off the bike and sliding my a** on the asphalt" technique... I am now working on the harder technique consisting of not having to use that above technique anymore

 

[fzme]

Very interesting discussion...

I've read and re-read Keith Code's books (among others.) I love how technically he (and you, Misti) describe riding strategies more as operating instructions for a machine (that you just happen to be sitting on) instead of just "how to ride." The former description makes performance riding sound more like a science with exact calculations and provable theories instead of just something a rider "feels" through guesswork. THAT sort of mentality (of predictable machine operation) gives me loads of confidence that the bike WILL perform as expected as long as rider error is at a minimum (or absent.)

Again, great reaffirmation of what works. Actually imagining yourself in the moment, doing each step, over and over, will make you a better rider when you actually DO it.:thumbup:

Reminds me of basketball camp in high school. We would do countless shooting drills WITHOUT the ball. We would focus on feet, hands, and body position, and without the distraction of having a ball, it was easier to do. Imagining a "swish" through the rim when we "fake" shot our imaginary basketball capped of the drill. I was always surprised at how much more naturally my shot felt after those drills.

 

[fzme]

Oh and to answer the question, the easiest technique to master for me was left turns...I know...WTF?

 

[k1c]

I think the thing with the rear brake is that it is waaaaay to easy to lock it up and cause more problems than good by riders that don't know what they are doing, plus, it often acts as a crutch for mistakes in entry speed. Riders enter a turn in too fast and instead of working on why they might be entering turns at the wrong speed, they compensate by always using the rear brake in the middle of the turn. It's funny because at the Superbike School we do a no brakes exercise for the first session, and so many students sneak the rear brake on thinking that we aren't going to notice!

Some people also think that using the rear brake helps to "settle" the bike mid corner. Again, more often than not this is compensating for poor throttle control. Poor throttle control will make a bike feel unstable. While you didn't mention "waiting" to roll on the throttle per say, you talk about neutral throttle and not necessarily accelerating (rolling on) through the corners. The main purpose of throttle control is to stabilize the bike and this is done by transferring the weight off the front and onto the rear so that the suspension is set in the optimal range, 60% rear and 40% front. This is done by rolling ON the throttle, as Keith would say, "smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the turn". Neutral throttle won't achieve the optimal weight transfer.

Now, we are not talking about hauling ass through a corner, just getting the gas cracked on ASAP once the bike is turned and rolling it on gently throughout the remainder of the turn.

This is not just a track riding technique but is useful on the street as well for optimal stability throughout the turns. Does that make sense? Is that what you would say you are doing with the throttle in the turns or is it slightly different?

Cheers and thanks for the great discussion!

Misti

My Pleasure.

I agree with everything you say here Misti, especially the bit about using the rear brake in mid corner, but then that isn't something that I advocated. My initial reference to the rear brake was in settling the bike immediately before the front brake was applied, in fact at probably the only time the rear brake has any utility in either getting the bike stopped quickly, or setting the bike up for a corner.

I don't want o belabour the neutral throttle thing too much, because I see a real difference between taking a corner under perfect circumstances, as at the track, and riding on roads where perfection of technique has to give way to prudence and safety. You may correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've heard that a cardinal sin at the track is coasting through corners. ie. no brakes and no throttle, and I think understand why that is so. At least in part riders go to the track to practice riding fast and perfecting lines, but we don't ride on the street for the same reasons.

I'm lucky enough to get to ride/drive to work on a very technically difficult country road. It has everything you could want as a riding challenge in a single 8 mile stretch. On many of the corners the exits are blind. Sometimes because of terrain, sometimes the sight lines are obscured by vegetation, and sometimes it's both. It's really in these circumstances where the neutral throttle comes into play, as one needs to have as much time as possible to identify and avoid any potential obstacle that may present itself around that next corner. True the 40/60 setup is much more comfortable from a 'feel' and efficiency point of view, and in order to set those paramaters in play you have to load the suspension by using the throttle to transfer weight front to back (this is the "tiny bit of throttle in hand" I mentioned earlier). Neutral throttle in this type of blind cornering situation may not be optimal from a cornering technique perspective, but neither does it upset the bike so much as to be unstable (after all 50/50 'aint bad), and at the same time allows for a moment or two of extra time to scan the unravelling road ahead for potential dangers. :thumbup:


Question re "seeing the exit": do you mean "seeing" the VP start to recede, or actually "seeing" clear road ahead?

Love the "no braking" practice. Something I do all the time. A great way to work on throttle control.

 

[Misti]

My Pleasure.

I agree with everything you say here Misti, especially the bit about using the rear brake in mid corner, but then that isn't something that I advocated. My initial reference to the rear brake was in settling the bike immediately before the front brake was applied, in fact at probably the only time the rear brake has any utility in either getting the bike stopped quickly, or setting the bike up for a corner.

I don't want o belabour the neutral throttle thing too much, because I see a real difference between taking a corner under perfect circumstances, as at the track, and riding on roads where perfection of technique has to give way to prudence and safety. You may correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've heard that a cardinal sin at the track is coasting through corners. ie. no brakes and no throttle, and I think understand why that is so. At least in part riders go to the track to practice riding fast and perfecting lines, but we don't ride on the street for the same reasons.

I'm lucky enough to get to ride/drive to work on a very technically difficult country road. It has everything you could want as a riding challenge in a single 8 mile stretch. On many of the corners the exits are blind. Sometimes because of terrain, sometimes the sight lines are obscured by vegetation, and sometimes it's both. It's really in these circumstances where the neutral throttle comes into play, as one needs to have as much time as possible to identify and avoid any potential obstacle that may present itself around that next corner. True the 40/60 setup is much more comfortable from a 'feel' and efficiency point of view, and in order to set those paramaters in play you have to load the suspension by using the throttle to transfer weight front to back (this is the "tiny bit of throttle in hand" I mentioned earlier). Neutral throttle in this type of blind cornering situation may not be optimal from a cornering technique perspective, but neither does it upset the bike so much as to be unstable (after all 50/50 'aint bad), and at the same time allows for a moment or two of extra time to scan the unravelling road ahead for potential dangers. :thumbup:


Question re "seeing the exit": do you mean "seeing" the VP start to recede, or actually "seeing" clear road ahead?

Love the "no braking" practice. Something I do all the time. A great way to work on throttle control.

I can understand the thinking behind the neutral throttle idea and you are right that simply not rolling on for a moment or two mid corner is not going to upset the bike THAT much, but ideally you would want to be rolling it on continually throughout the entire corner. The amount of roll on required to maintain the 40/60 weight transfer is small as you said and it wouldn't cause the bike to accelerate much through the corner at all. We are not talking about going faster in the turn, we are talking about putting the bike in the ideal suspension range and making it as stable as possible. I think the benefits of continuing to roll on, outweigh the idea of giving yourself an extra moment or two to scan the corner for obstacles.

I'm not saying that it is not important to be cautious on the street and especially when you are riding blind corners but I think the best route through these types of turns should be slow in, continuous roll on throughout and exceptional visual skills will allow you to see further through the corner and be able to scan for danger, while still being able to roll on the gas through the turn.

You ask a good question about what is meant by "seeing the exit". I usually break the corner down to three main points, entry, apex and exit. By exit I mean the end of the turn, where I want to be as I'm coming out of it. I want to achieve a nice flow with my eyes taking in first the turn in point, then where I want to be mid corner, then where I want to be at the exit. From there I look up the track/road towards the vanishing point to see what is coming next. Sometimes if the turns are closer together the exit of one turn is the VP, but in others there is a clear EXIT area before you look up the road to the VP.

Does that make sense?

Misti