Charging System

[DaveOTZ]

OK...
So My battery has died a few times since I got the new one about 2 years ago (YUASA). I usually attribute the lack of power to lots of driving in heavy NYC traffic. But now its not recharging (methinks). It either barely turns over or I have to bump start it. when it starts it runs fine till some Idle time then I get the FI 46 code (Fuel Injectors aren't getting nuff juice). I know I need to do some electrical testing and get the battery load tested. Just wanted to know if you guys think a couple of (sitting in traffic) discharges could ruin (rooeen) a battery. Also what are the chances its my stator/regulator (seems rare in this bike)?

2004 FZ6
The only mods still connected...
Heated Handgrips (old and may be a possible culprit)
Dual Headlight
Fender Eliminator w/new LEDs

Thoughts???

 

[Shamus McFeeley]

A weak battery can make the situation worse. There are some troubleshooting steps you can take to determine if you have a Reg Rec problem or if it is your battery.

Problems like this can also be exacerbated by any accessories you've added. Many on here have added some sort of switch or relay for their dual headlights for just this occasion. I added a switch because I like the idea of being able to manually control the setup. Heated equipment can definately be a culprit if the system has a short somewhere, or the wiring itself has become old, broken down, and introduced more resistance into the circuit (this same thing happens with batteries when they get old). You could try to remove one accessory at a time and see if they helps, you don't want to remove everything or you won't know what fixed it. If you're handy with a multimeter you can wring out some wires, and that will be the better way. In any case, you should definately consider switching to the "switched" or "relayed" dual headlight setup. The FZ won't start to charge until about 5000rpm, so a lot of heavy idling with a greater than normal load, combined with an old battery can add up to be too much for your system to handle.

This is Electrosports troubleshooting guide:
Guide Download Link

Here is what the 2004 manual says about your charging system and battery capacity:

Now here is what it says about your consumption by the stock lights:

So according to the manual you have 310 total watts to play with. Minus the consumption by your lights and you get about 101 watts left. Remember that 310 is peak watts, not what the system is always producing. And at the same time, you are consuming voltage too. The system has to produce enough total power, in volts to "push" back into the battery to charge it. It is entirely possible to get yourself into a situation where you are consuming just enough to have the bike run past 5000rpm, but kill it below that because the battery will starve.

You're going to have to figure out how much power those other accessories are consuming. You can do that by multiplying your accessories voltage by amp and you will get how much wattage it consumes.

If you drive often enough with a lot of electrical load at idle speeds, then you might want to concider a better battery too. The turn tech puts out 1.5 more amp hours than the standard one. Expensive, but worth it. My friend has one of these on his Ducati Hypermotard.
Turn Tech link
Also remember that completely discharging a lead acid battery or "running it flat" will eventually damage the battery until it is unusable. Something called "sulfation" happens when you discharge a battery, even at its normal rate. If you discharge a battery too much, the lead plates inside the battery will accumulate too much crystals on them "sulfation" and will become useless.

 

[victorb]

NYC traffic in the summer is rough on this bike.. the radiator fan is pretty much always on and the stator is barely ever charging the battery as you rarely get sustained 5k+ rpms for a decent period of time.
I know i toasted my previous battery this way. Every once in a while it would just not have enough juice to turn the bike over.. 30 minutes ride on the hwy in 3rd gear and all is fine for a couple weeks.. until it would happen again..

I eventually got a new battery this spring for peace of mind. I just know now that if i can't get out of the city for a few weeks and go on a good long ride, then I have to put the battery on a tender after a while as it will never really charge in NYC traffic.. since i don't have a garage, that means taking off the battery and bringing it home with me, which is a pain, but that's the only way to be sure it will crank next time.. good thing it's easy to push start the little 6

Since you ran your battery down already a few times, it probably does not have as much capacity as a new one. If it's easy enough for you, try to put it on a tender once a week or so, and I bet your problems will disappear. Maybe you do have a deeper charging problem, but from my experience, NYC conditions just don't give the charging system a chance.

Oh.. track days are another great way to a/ charge your battery and b/ get away from all those fn yellow cabs for a day :thumbup:

 

[Motogiro]

Here's another thread that was very educational in helping to understand our charging system.http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-mods/27460-increasing-stator-output-rewinding-stator.html
Make sure your connections to the battery are clean and secure, as this is always the first thing to look for when you have an electrical problem.

 

[DaveOTZ]

THANKS ALL...
So when I get a chance to look at it Im going to dismantle the heated handgrips and probably install some fresh ones (needs to be done)
Ill test the electrical system before and after...
I do have a loose brake lead that is wobbly Ill tighten that too...
If all checks out Ill load test the batt and replace if needed... Hopefully thatll fix er up...

If not Ill be crying my way to the stealership my indie guy is all dried up...

 

[SirIsaac]

The FZ won't start to charge until about 5000rpm...

A couple of years ago, I copied the following information from a post that I can no longer find. I think it may have been posted by Cali rider. Please don't take this as criticism of your analysis, just trying to present all pertinent information.

FZ6 charging system analysis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the past 2 years I have read several threads about the implied shortcomings of the battery and charging system. It seems that whenever there is an issue of a battery going flat or the addition of load to the electrical system, one of the common replies is to “ride the bike for a while with the engine revving above 5000 rpm because it doesn’t start charging until this speed”. I have to assume that this is based on the alternator specification in the service manual: 14 V/310 W at 5,000 r/min. I had my doubts as to whether this was an accurate statement, and decided to measure the output.

First of all, it should be noted that the FZ6 has a standard 3-phase alternator with NO rotor current control circuitry. In other words, it will generate voltage across the output terminals as soon as it begins rotating, increasing with speed, as it uses permanent magnets in the rotor. In addition, the regulator/rectifier module is an external package, mounted just below and to the left of the rear fuel tank mount. This allowed for easy access to make measurements.

I began by leaving the lights and 4-way flasher on for about ½ hour to create some drain on the battery as I have the dual headlight mod. Voltage dropped from 12.2 V to 11.0 V. After splicing in a shunt between the positive terminal of the regulator and the lead going towards the rest of the system I started the engine. The attached chart shows a graphical display of the measured values listed here:

Engine off- 11.25V
Started from cold fast idle- 12.8V, 20A, 1600 RPM
High beam and emergency flasher on- 12.2V, 20A, 1500 RPM
Warmed up, low beam, emergency flasher off- 12.2V, 15A, 1100 RPM
Warmed up- 13.8V, 21A, 2000 RPM
Warmed up- 14.0V, 22A, 2200 RPM
Warmed up- 14.0V, 22A, 4000 RPM
Warmed up- 14.0V, 22A, 5000 RPM
Warmed up- 14.0V, 22A, 8000 RPM

After gathering this info, I hooked up an additional ammeter at the main fuse block to monitor system usage. Following the same approach as before, I measured both positive and negative current flow consistent with the rpm points listed above. The point of no charge was about 1400 RPM, with battery drain below this speed and charging current above. The maximum positive charging current measured was 4A @ >2000 RPM, as the regulator was showing an output of 22A. I didn’t let this run for more than 5 minutes so I never reached a point where the battery would reach a full charge state.

My data leads me to the following conclusions:
1- The alternator/regulator package produces it’s full rated value of 310W (22A x 14V) at 2200 RPM and this value never increases with engine speeds above this point. So, the advice to “keep it revved up or it will never charge” is misguided. Just normal engine speeds are enough to get full charging potential.
2- As I stated, I have the dual headlight mod. With this, my bike draws a consistent 18 amps under steady operation. Of course, as brakes are applied or turn signals are activated, this load momentarily increases above 18A to a discharge condition. I am confidant that the normal total electrical draw is just under the system limits, which is why I haven’t had a problem with a battery discharging. I did have a regulator fail when the bike was under warranty, but no problems since.
3- The numbers don’t lie: I don’t believe that this electrical system can handle more that an additional 40-45W of constant current draw without eventually discharging the battery. Momentary use is one thing but with a battery capacity of only 10 A/H there is very little headroom. The effects of this can be masked/minimized by hooking the battery up to a charger on a regular basis, but you will not be able to maintain charge by running the engine unless:

total system demand<charging potential
??? amps<22 amps

In my own experience, I'm pretty sure that I spend most of my riding time below 5000 rpm. I have the bd43 headlight mod. My 2007 is still on its original battery, which has never been on a charger and never required jump starting. (Of course it will probably die tomorrow now.....)

 

[seb101]

Would battery with higher cappacity (Ah) help-out ?

 

[alanrim]

Would battery with higher cappacity (Ah) help-out ?

It would just mean that the battery would be able to run the bikes systems for slightly longer if the load (all electrical stuff on bike) exceeded the power available from the alternator.

Of course the battery would take longer to reach full capacity when the charging began.

Running the heated grips, brake light on, at tickover will start to produce a small drain of the battery. With the dual headlight mod this drain would be greater. You need less than 2000rpm to overcome the draw from all these items.

By the way the heated grips are unlikely to be discharging the battery if not switched on, if they still work OK then I would not replace them as they are very unlikely to have a fault that would be the cause of the problem.

 

[tomari]

In my own experience, I'm pretty sure that I spend most of my riding time below 5000 rpm. I have the bd43 headlight mod. My 2007 is still on its original battery, which has never been on a charger and never required jump starting. (Of course it will probably die tomorrow now.....)

i have to agree my stock bat died after 3,5 years and i had headlight mod and spent most of my riding time below 5000 rpm. the stock battery died because of short sircuited heated grips else im sure it wouldn't die.

also never been on a charger and never required jump starting.

 

[Hellgate]

How's the output of your stator?

 

[Zack]

Many people reported and it is not measured and proven that alternator/charging system on FZ sucks.that is a fact.
My doubt is, how come that Yamaha knows that and does zilch to fix it and improve it??
I myself run out of juice after few stops and engine stud down. Afte I did that fourth or fifth time I didn't have enough juice to start again. I must say that my bike start instantly when cold and harder when hot.

 

[Shamus McFeeley]

A couple of years ago, I copied the following information from a post that I can no longer find. I think it may have been posted by Cali rider. Please don't take this as criticism of your analysis, just trying to present all pertinent information.

Interesting stuff. Makes me want to go do some tests of my own.

 

[DaveOTZ]

So I removed all mods and clipped the heated handgrips (yes removed at switched source). With the mostly discharged batt it started a little easier.

I trickled the batt over today installed when full and Im gonna trial the bike tomorrow. If it still goes out I may skip a load test and just replace the batt... But it started like a champ tonight.

I tried to get a read, but my multimeter was acting up...

 

[Motogiro]

Many people reported and it is not measured and proven that alternator/charging system on FZ sucks.that is a fact.
My doubt is, how come that Yamaha knows that and does zilch to fix it and improve it??
I myself run out of juice after few stops and engine stud down. Afte I did that fourth or fifth time I didn't have enough juice to start again. I must say that my bike start instantly when cold and harder when hot.

Not saying you're wrong Zack but you may have other issues if your bike is hard starting when hot.
I owned the 06 FZ6 and it was a leftover when I bought it new. Never had a starting problem with it. I put over 19k on it. It could probably use a little beefier charging system but remember some people who have issues have added devices to the system and the engineers have tried save weight and costs where they could for this bike.

 

[alanrim]

My doubt is, how come that Yamaha knows that and does zilch to fix it and improve it??

Very few sports bikes, especially around the 600cc size will have alternators that will output much more power than the bike actually needs in stock configuration.

You don't get something for nothing, the larger the alternator the less power available at the back wheel. Since bike sales in this class are often about figures, with lots of people looking for a few more horse power, Yamaha and other companies can't win.

If the FZ was a tourer then yes the alternator power is low, but for a sports bike it is probably around the correct rating. Fitting a larger alternator means having a larger regulator and finding the space for all the larger kit, often this means an alternator that is external of the engine, this adds weight, cost, and complexity (you need some way to make it turn at the correct speed range).

 

[Marcin]

A 4 year archeology but I do not want to start a new thread. Just to make sure - when I power up my bike, on idle ~1900, cold engine, I get 14V on battery. That's a correct value according to what you write here.

Will this value drop when the battery is being charged? I've noticed that while riding I usually have readings of about 13.7V.

 

[Motogiro]

A 4 year archeology but I do not want to start a new thread. Just to make sure - when I power up my bike, on idle ~1900, cold engine, I get 14V on battery. That's a correct value according to what you write here.

Will this value drop when the battery is being charged? I've noticed that while riding I usually have readings of about 13.7V.

!3.7-14.0 VDC is a decent voltage. The charging system on the FZ6 uses a shunt type regulator so readings won't behave as with a car alternator series regulation system. But the nominal voltages you're seeing sound good.

The more accurate way to know the health of your charging system is to fully charge your battery and load test it.Then the charging system would also have to be loaded while monitoring current/amperage and voltage to give the charging systems capability. In most cases we use voltage only as a reference and although it generally works as an indicator it is not the only reference to use to give a truer picture of charging system health.

 

[Marcin]

Thank you. Now I can sleep peacefully
I will mount a small 3digit voltage indicator somewhere around the rpm circle to have a look how it works while commuting. A cheap, $5 precaution system.