Another noob question on engine braking

[Spawn316]

Hi all,

I'm a prospective new FZ6R rider that just discovered this site. It's chock full of great information from informed riders. I've taken the MSF BRC and am looking to buy an FZ6R in the next few days/weeks. Before purchasing, I've been scouring the Net for sites like this for info on riding techniques since I've already decided that this is the bike I'd like to get.

I searched as best I could through the threads on the topic of engine braking and there was some good stuff. But my specific question was never answered, so here goes:

Say you're in traffic in 3rd gear, and you need to make an emergency stop. Do you squeeze the front and rear brake and downshift to 2nd, then 1st, ALL WHILE KEEPING THE BRAKE ENGAGED?? Or do you just brake and hold the clutch in and don't worry about downshifting since it's an emergency situation? It seems that when engine braking, you aren't doing anything with the brake or the throttle until you're actually letting off the clutch. And in an emergency stop situation (where you can't swerve) it'd seem like there wouldn't be enough time to shift down smoothly through two gears and end up at a complete, safe stop in first. But I'm a noob so what do I know.....

Any advice would be helpful.

 

[Wildcard]

Yea I would worry about braking instead of downshifting. Plus, with you using the rear brake AND downshifting, you will most likely just lock up the rear.

 

[Spawn316]

So in this instance you'd be at a complete stop and in 3rd gear. Would you then downshift, while you are stopped to 1st?? Seems like in MSF BRC they'd always want you in 1st when you're stopped.

 

[AJ_rider]

So in this instance you'd be at a complete stop and in 3rd gear. Would you then downshift, while you are stopped to 1st??

Yes, If you wanted to move forward again without stalling of course you would. I too would focus on braking rather than downshifting, remember MSF BRC teaches you the basics of riding and many useful tips that can save your life, but it can not mimic the hazards of the real street. Get out and ride and use what you've learned as a starting point. I find I learn something about my riding just about everytime I go out.

 

[Fz6Sa]

Yes, If you wanted to move forward again without stalling of course you would. I too would focus on braking rather than downshifting, remember MSF BRC teaches you the basics of riding and many useful tips that can save your life, but it can not mimic the hazards of the real street. Get out and ride and use what you've learned as a starting point. I find I learn something about my riding just about everytime I go out.

I totally agree on this point of view.
As a beginner, - the most important thing would be to perfect your breaking, and only when you can brake on reflecks, you should start complicating things with simultaneous down shifting.
Like it's stated in "Twist Of The Wrist", you only have a certain amount of concentration, - so if you have to use 95% of it on the braking, - down shifting at the same time would only make your braking worse, - hence in a worst case scenario make you crash.

So do one thing at the time, until YOU are confident enough to move on, - and if anyone tells you differently, - just remember that squids are more like to get more hospital time, and less riding time.

 

[thetimanator]

I have not been riding that long so take this as you want...

In a perfect world you would always stop while in first gear even in an emergency situation so that you would be in the right gear to move if needed. I don't think you need to engine brake, just get the bike into first gear while braking. But if your about to hit something head on I think that it would be priority to not crash and worry about putting it in first once your safely stopped. You don't want your focus to be put on downshifting rather than avoiding an accident.

Maybe you should practice this once you get a bike. Done properly, you will be stopped in first but when your looking at potential injury your brain will act differently. I need to practice this as well

 

[larryinpa]

I took the advanced msf in my state a couple of years ago. They do teach downshifting to 1st while using both breaks; and using 1st gear to help stop the bike. It works, but you gotta practice it for it to work.

 

[Red Wazp]

Panic stop: clutch in and front brake only. Worry about shifting later. I try to pratice one hard stop every ride. Yesterday I had to do a hard braking due to confused cager ahead of me. Out of habit ( I use both on my FJR with abs) used some rear brake and it locked up causing some rear slide. Stay off the rear brake.

 

[Fz6Sa]

Panic stop: clutch in and front brake only. Worry about shifting later. I try to pratice one hard stop every ride. Yesterday I had to do a hard braking due to confused cager ahead of me. Out of habit ( I use both on my FJR with abs) used some rear brake and it locked up causing some rear slide. Stay off the rear brake.

Here I have to disagree!
Using the rear brake in the BEGINNING of the breaking procedure will reduce your stopping length!
As a rule of thumb, using both brakes correctly will make you stop 20-30% shorter than just using the front brake. Those 20-30% might just save yours or someone else life!
Learn to brake correctly, - and worry about RMP's, what gear you are in etc. later.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Spawn316]

I appreciate all the responses. And fast too!! I wonder if you all ride as fast as you respond???

The downshifting is something we practiced in MSF, but we only got to 2nd gear. So when we practiced the quick stops, we'd be in 2nd, squeeze in the clutch, hit both brakes and as we came to a stop, downshifted to 1st. But I was curious as to what to do in a higher gear. I'll definitely be sure to try it out when I get the bike.

I'm debating going out today to get it. I've got the financing secured, but the wifey is still on the fence about the whole thing. That's the only reason I've waited this long after taking the class. But after reading your posts, I may have to just go out and buy the freaking thing anyway and deal with the consequences later!

After all, it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission!!

 

[WeWonItThreeTimes]

Front brake only. Engine is not for braking. If You confident you'll be able to handle braking and downshifting, then ok but do not use engine for braking

 

[Fz6Sa]

I appreciate all the responses. And fast too!! I wonder if you all ride as fast as you respond???

Even faster

I'm debating going out today to get it. I've got the financing secured, but the wifey is still on the fence about the whole thing. That's the only reason I've waited this long after taking the class. But after reading your posts, I may have to just go out and buy the freaking thing anyway and deal with the consequences later!

After all, it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission!!

I know I might be a bit extreme on this, but I would go for it, - if she can't accept that you want a bike, she needs to get her priorities straight.
The again, I do realize that most "Non-riders" just don't get what the fuzz is all about, - but we know, - and they would to if they would only get on a bike
(And yes, - I am married to a "Non-rider )

 

[huxy]

The sequence I was taught for emergency braking is brake with front and rear, more on the front, and increasing the pressure on the front as you slow. Just before you come to a halt pull in the clutch (so the engine is braking you all the time, but you don't stall it). When stopped you check the mirrors and blind spots in case you need to jump for it to avoid someone coming up fast behind you. Only when you are then stopped and safe do the gear changes, check all the mirrors and blind spots again, and pull off to the side of the road to change your underpants ;-)

The examiners here want to see you stop safely and then check you are making all of these observations . You don't want to avoid a crash then pull out in front of a truck you've not seen.

 

[grumpy1luvs2eat]

Being a new rider, I would be concerned with stopping under control first. Down shifting while braking will come naturally with experience. Have fun, ride often, and BE SAFE! Remember, SOMEONE OUT THERE IS GOING TO TRY TO KILLYOU! GRUMPY

 

[Nefilim]

The rear brake is used to shift the weight forward. The front brake does this as well but the rear brake really helps, so I always use it when braking.

Don't squeeze your front brake too hard at first or else you'll lock it too soon. Apply a little bit of brake first until you feel the front end dive, then gradually squeeze firmer and you should come to a stop rapidly.

The FZ6 has enough braking power that you don't really have to worry about using engine braking to compensate. All that does is wear your engine out faster. I pay more attention to my rear view mirrors than what gear I am when coming to a quick stop because we brake a LOT better than the SUVs who tailgate us.

 

[Bates121]

I am new rider and something i found very helpful when learning to use the brakes was ride around a neighborhood with lots of stop signs between them try to get to third gear and when coming up to the stop signs practice your emergency stop. The constant starting and stopping will also work on your clutch work going from a dead stop to moving, I know the fz6 can be a little tricky for this when learning to ride. Find that happy point where you are giving the maximum amount of pressure on the breaks, but not locking up the wheels. I did this for about a total of 4 or 5 hours over the course of weekend and felt 10000x more confident on my braking. And like other people have already said, never stop practicing, every ride practice an emergency stop (make sure it is safe to do so before attempting) Otherwise be safe and have fun out there:rockon::rockon::rockon::rockon:

 

[BobSchmickle]

Don't worry about shifting in an emergency stop.

In a worst case scenario if you get completely stopped in 6th gear, it will be difficult to shift down to first. You will probably get 2-3 shifts, then you will need to release the clutch a little to get everything lined up again, then a few more shifts. I've seen guys try to "jam" it into gear and start kicking the shifter. This rarely works and will just cause more problems. Just ease the clutch a little, pull it back in, then continue down shifting.

 

[GoGreen09]

I think we all know what to do technically, but it's useless without constant practice. I practiced emergency braking probably less than 5 times until Memorial day weekend (downshifting wasn't even part of my practice). I had a very close call which made me slam on my brakes. Without thinking, I hit the front brake hard...don't know how, but I also got the rear brake going. I wasn't going to stop in time, so I did the "swerve around the bus" maneuver. I didn't even realize what gear I'm on until I tried to accelerate. Needless to say, I had to add more practice time, and I added downshifting to this.

After you ask for forgiveness from the wifey, make sure you practice brakes with some downshifting. I'm sure you'll do fine with the riding part....the Mrs may be the hardest!

 

[SovietRobot]

During split second emergency braking, don't worry about downshifting.
You should be pulling in the clutch completely and using the front/rear brakes for emergency stops.

All other stops, you should be downshifting to 2nd and then shifting into first right before you come to a stop and leave the clutch pulled in.

This ensures you're in the right gear for the speed/situation.

Once you get a lot of experience and practice, it is possible to downshift while doing an emergency stop, but I wouldn't try it in a real emergency if you're a beginner.

 

[Oscar54]

Pretty much all said.

Pull the clutch (forget down-shifting) and use both brakes, that is why you have them.

But practice emergency stopping but don't start at 60 out of the box.

Start at 20 to 30 since most accidents happen at intersections and are at less than 35 mph and work up from there. This will train your brain to gauge stopping distance at speed when in an emergency so you will know right off if you are going to have to maneuver to avoid a collision.

I had a total panic stop just three weeks ago looking to left for traffic on a merge and turn back and the car in front had stopped for no traffic. Knew immediately not enough distance, clutch in, max brakes, go for near side of road. Stopped about two feet past the cars bumper.

Makes you remember, always assume the car will make the worst decision so know your out, and keep your head on your riding.