Shootings

[Xavias]

Not sure if this has been posted here yet or not (didn't read through all 8 pages, I'll be honest.) But it seems as though the discussion has shifted to "gun control" policies a bit.

I just saw this article and thought it might spark a little thought.

The Facts about Mass Shootings - John Fund - National Review Online

The line I found most disturbing from it was the following:
Lott offers a final damning statistic: “With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.”

Just food for thought.

 

[Ssky0078]

Not sure if this has been posted here yet or not (didn't read through all 8 pages, I'll be honest.) But it seems as though the discussion has shifted to "gun control" policies a bit.

I just saw this article and thought it might spark a little thought.

The Facts about Mass Shootings - John Fund - National Review Online

The line I found most disturbing from it was the following:
Lott offers a final damning statistic: “With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.”

Just food for thought.

Really good article, thanks. I keep a handgun in my car for that very reason. I also wear it on my hip if I am ever riding by myself out in the boonies.

I've said for years that the people who want to do the most damage will start using malls, grocery stores, theaters, etc because of the ease of the target. It's sad but the article alluded to that potential reality as these Anti-Social individuals wish to do the most harm.

 

[LERecords]

in my chemical outside sales days I visited everything from preschools to colleges... never in my life have i thought "this is a good place for a gun"... i hear so many arguments that well i am defending my self and i shake my head and think big man who needs a gun....

!!but!! i do see the point that yea, if someone was lighting up a place and i had a gun and was there.. but i cant answer 100% if i would be the one using it... i know we cant go back in terms of guns cuz i really don't think rounding them up is the answer either.. i do think some light mandatory gun safety is warranted and should be taught to everyone.. but we do need to help those mental people who keep doing these things.. that would solve a lot of the problems in the first place.. simple.. if you are a felon or loony, no gun.. EVER... if you live with a loony.. secure your things or just don't have those things...

 

[Tailgate]

All this talk about "mental illness...." Is anybody suggesting that the shooter didn't know what he was doing, that he didn't fully realize it was selfish, evil and absolutely wrong? People who vandalize random victims for the thrill, spread computer viruses, key bitchin' paint jobs, torture or poison bait animals, spike food products, bully, drop rocks on oncoming traffic from freeway overpasses, sniper innocent random people, vandalize FZ6's, etc., They're scum and in my opinion deserve the highest stigma that society can throw at them. I wish President Obama would refer to the shooter as a maggot. If nothing else, maybe future potential shooters will get the idea that society doesn't somehow "excuse" or somehow attach something desireable to such self-centered individuals, that they don't go down as notorious, media stars but as total losers. Does mental illness exist? Sure, but I don't believe that the Newtown shooter didn't fully realize that what he was doing was 100% evil. Hitler doesn't get a pass and neither does this latest maggot. Do people search mental illness for individuals convicted of so-called "hate" crimes? Was not this school shooting an ultimate "hate" crime?

 

[ryanag]

So many people keep mentioning how we need mandatory gun training and gun safety training and so many other gun regulations that would have zero impact of stopping a mass shooter. The ONLY way to 100% ensure this never happens again is to guarantee crazy people can’t get their hands on a gun…….and guess what……that’s IMPOSSIBLE!!! Even banning “assault weapons” will not change a thing. This is America and guns have been a huge part of our DNA since the beginning. Guns aren’t going away so we as a society must find a way to work with each other to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

 

[CowtownBiomed]

You don't need to do anything other than accept the consequences.

People have guns, other people are going to get shot.

Forget the rhetoric, it is just a question of accepting the consequences. You can lie to yourself that more guns equals fewer shootings of law abiding folks (!?), but the data doesn't support your hypothesis. Don't hide behind the fact that he was "depressed/crazy/evil" he had access to guns, and he shot innocent children because of that.
Nobody is going to say it isn't a heart breaking tragedy, including advocates of easier access to firearms for the masses. They are presumably either comfortable that their ability to buy a Sig and protect themselves is worth the heinous acts that will occur because of that right. Or they are able to lie so convincingly to themselves, that they can fabricate a disconnect between gun ownership and shooting people.

Every decision has a consequence. Life $#@!ed up because you had three or four beers and chose to drive home instead of calling a cab? Sorry, your choice, man up and accept the consequences of your actions.
Someone else ended up dead because of your @#(!ty choice to drive home? Then they get the sympathy, and you get to live with what you did. Welcome to real life. Hard isn't it?

America doesn't need stricter gun control, you just need to accept that abject tragedies like this are going to occur more frequently because you choose to let them. Not government, just you: "The People".

If you are happy that it is a fair trade, then you don't need to do anything and you will sleep soundly tonight.
My heart truly goes out to those who lost precious people in this horrible shooting. Their grief must be unbearable.

 

[Ssky0078]

in my chemical outside sales days I visited everything from preschools to colleges... never in my life have i thought "this is a good place for a gun"... i hear so many arguments that well i am defending my self and i shake my head and think big man who needs a gun....

!!but!! i do see the point that yea, if someone was lighting up a place and i had a gun and was there.. but i cant answer 100% if i would be the one using it... i know we cant go back in terms of guns cuz i really don't think rounding them up is the answer either.. i do think some light mandatory gun safety is warranted and should be taught to everyone.. but we do need to help those mental people who keep doing these things.. that would solve a lot of the problems in the first place.. simple.. if you are a felon or loony, no gun.. EVER... if you live with a loony.. secure your things or just don't have those things...

I overheard a discussion at another table at lunch today. A man there made a very salient point. The last country to order mandatory gun registration was ?????? If anyone guessed Germany, you are correct. They ordered gun registration and then went into the homes and either just took the guns or killed the people and took the guns.

The good ol saying 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' was never more true, and I would have the same fear of any government.

 

[Ssky0078]

All this talk about "mental illness...." Is anybody suggesting that the shooter didn't know what he was doing, that he didn't fully realize it was selfish, evil and absolutely wrong? People who vandalize random victims for the thrill, spread computer viruses, key bitchin' paint jobs, torture or poison bait animals, spike food products, bully, drop rocks on oncoming traffic from freeway overpasses, sniper innocent random people, vandalize FZ6's, etc., They're scum and in my opinion deserve the highest stigma that society can throw at them. I wish President Obama would refer to the shooter as a maggot. If nothing else, maybe future potential shooters will get the idea that society doesn't somehow "excuse" or somehow attach something desireable to such self-centered individuals, that they don't go down as notorious, media stars but as total losers. Does mental illness exist? Sure, but I don't believe that the Newtown shooter didn't fully realize that what he was doing was 100% evil. Hitler doesn't get a pass and neither does this latest maggot. Do people search mental illness for individuals convicted of so-called "hate" crimes? Was not this school shooting an ultimate "hate" crime?

See my previous post #59 on the different personality disorders. Also consider that under the umbrella of mental health there are 2 main sections. Mood disorders, such as depression, anxiety, bipolar, etc. And, Personality disorders which are like antisocial personality, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, etc.
As a broad generalization mood disorders are more internalized processes and personality disorders are more respective societally. Take for instance if you are the Nazi Dr. Jospeph Mengele and performed a ton of grisly horrible experiments on Jews which raised your status and position in the Third Reich, but to the rest of us he was a sociopathic monster.



Individuals who participate in "hate" crimes can often either fall under antisocial personality disorder or oppositional defiant disorder.

 

[hattu345]

Individuals who participate in "hate" crimes can often either fall under antisocial personality disorder or oppositional defiant disorder.

But no one has described him as a disturbed person, but simply "the quiet guy who didn't talk much". It means that he's been left out in the margins of society, not socialized or whatever you want to call it. And with that reasoning it's the society that has failed and it's a common responsibility to make these people part of society. There are plenty of examples from other shootings where the perpetrators are just lonely people with lot's of anger. Pushing people out of society is dangerous.

 

[gpostarmy]

A simple thread to have a place to express the shear disbelief of what happened and to express sympathy and give prayers to the family has turned into something else. It has turned into placing blame, and expressing anger, and so be it. This was a tragic event, and this is how people deal. So I will now express some thoughts.
Gun control. My take is that gun control is necessary, but only to the extent of getting a car. If you want to carry or use that gun you need to have the proper training and License. If I can not afford a car, I can steal one, I do not need a license to operate my stolen car or kill you and your family in my operation of my stolen car. Now replace car with gun. That brings me to those that say no to guns and that we should ban them entirely, while read the previous sentence, now let us ban cars. Oh, I can kill you with your steak knifes, your hammer, your grandmothers knitting needles, and beer bottles so lets also ban all of those Items. I forgot I could kill you with a rock so lets get rid of those as well. My point is that someone will always find a way. In Bath Michigan back in 1927 a man used explosives to kill 38 and wound 58 most of those that were killed were 7-14 years old in the north wing of their school.
I don't know how to smoothly start this so here. In Iraq in 2007 I was on patrol when Sunni Muslims shot mortar rounds into an area where Shia Muslims lived. My squad got there to provide aid as fast we could. I carried a little girl about eight years old out of the building. She didn't make it, she pasted where she slept. No need for more detail, but that was one of the hardest experience of my military career. My prayers go out to the familys, but also to the first responders. The loss of the innocent hit deep into the soul of even those that have seen the worst of mankind.
I cannot thing about these kids at the school without thinking about that little girl, it makes me angry and very sad, it makes my eyes water up. We are all reaching for our own answers to make sure nothing like this ever happens again, whether you feel that no guns or more guns is the answer, we all want this to never happen again.
Scott

 

[Ssky0078]

But no one has described him as a disturbed person, but simply "the quiet guy who didn't talk much". It means that he's been left out in the margins of society, not socialized or whatever you want to call it. And with that reasoning it's the society that has failed and it's a common responsibility to make these people part of society. There are plenty of examples from other shootings where the perpetrators are just lonely people with lot's of anger. Pushing people out of society is dangerous.

Agreed about getting people involved in society rather than alienating and disenfranchising them. My point throughout this entire thread has been to treat everyone with respect and in fact even kindness, even the weird ones, because often they are the ones that need it the most. Giving these people reasons to want to be part of the society rather than distancing themselves even further.

So just for discussion sake he would fall under schizoid personality disorder with a small dose of antisocial personality disorder (similar to the unabomber)

 

[Ssky0078]

A simple thread to have a place to express the shear disbelief of what happened and to express sympathy and give prayers to the family has turned into something else. It has turned into placing blame, and expressing anger, and so be it. This was a tragic event, and this is how people deal. So I will now express some thoughts.
Gun control. My take is that gun control is necessary, but only to the extent of getting a car. If you want to carry or use that gun you need to have the proper training and License. If I can not afford a car, I can steal one, I do not need a license to operate my stolen car or kill you and your family in my operation of my stolen car. Now replace car with gun. That brings me to those that say no to guns and that we should ban them entirely, while read the previous sentence, now let us ban cars. Oh, I can kill you with your steak knifes, your hammer, your grandmothers knitting needles, and beer bottles so lets also ban all of those Items. I forgot I could kill you with a rock so lets get rid of those as well. My point is that someone will always find a way. In Bath Michigan back in 1927 a man used explosives to kill 38 and wound 58 most of those that were killed were 7-14 years old in the north wing of their school.
I don't know how to smoothly start this so here. In Iraq in 2007 I was on patrol when Sunni Muslims shot mortar rounds into an area where Shia Muslims lived. My squad got there to provide aid as fast we could. I carried a little girl about eight years old out of the building. She didn't make it, she pasted where she slept. No need for more detail, but that was one of the hardest experience of my military career. My prayers go out to the familys, but also to the first responders. The loss of the innocent hit deep into the soul of even those that have seen the worst of mankind.
I cannot thing about these kids at the school without thinking about that little girl, it makes me angry and very sad, it makes my eyes water up. We are all reaching for our own answers to make sure nothing like this ever happens again, whether you feel that no guns or more guns is the answer, we all want this to never happen again.
Scott

I would agree with much of what you said, thank you for your service and feel bad that you had to see the worst of humanity.

I would disagree about one thing, disbelief. Maybe it is just the generation I have been growing up in an era that started off with Tarasoff vs Regents of UC and has seen some of the worst school shootings ever. At this point it is just a matter of waiting for the next episode. On top of that looking at the correlaries. Many of these school shootings take place in wealthy upper class schools. Many of these school shootings involve the kid who perpetrated the act suffering from some kind of bullying. Many of the shootings involve some history of disturbed behavior or mental illness. Many of these kids test high on intellectual scales but suffer from social awkwardness.

I feel sorrow for the neighborhood that has to suffer the tragedy. But, I also realize the objective of the perpetrator is to destroy the perceived utopia around them so the world they live in can also feel their suffering.

 

[Ssky0078]

I hate to stir the pot but I just thought I would put it out there. MI governor stopped teh passage of a bill that would have allowed individuals to carry CCW guns on college campuses. At first I thought that's a good idea, but then after reading the other article that was posted on here as well as listening to some other discussions I think it is actually a bad idea.

The article had pointed out that all but 1 of the mass shootings in the 2000s has been at locations where it is illegal to have guns. A friend who was with me when we saw the news about it said they thought it would be sketchy if kids had guns on college campuses. Upon further inspection it was mentioned that it would require 18 hrs of CCW training to get this special permit. In AZ I believe it is only 8 hours required to get a regular CCW, so these kids would have more than twice the training. And from my experience those who are familiar with guns and have gone through training typically act more responsibly and treat them with a higher level of respect.

It seems in the last few days that the discussion on the news has gone toward guns as being the problem. In reality a car can kill people, a kitchen knife can kill people, heck even saran wrap can kill people. I wish the news would redirect the focus back to mental health and socieatal health. I think that would have a greater impact from preventing such future tragedies. In the meantime an armed society is a civil society.

 

[aussiejules]

Sorry all but as asked early on, why did this thread get turned around. It should have stayed as a tribute/sorry/remorse for the lost lives, it should never have become another discussion. We all can start seperate threads for different reasons/topics, i have opinions on things discussed but would prefer to read this thread and remember lost life and feel for the families and friends.

 

[Tailgate]

Search for answers, express grief, vent anger, offer condolences, dispute causes, it's here. What next: target an old folks home? Saddest thing is that we know there will be another senseless mass shooting somewhere, and another... What a national tragedy.

 

[sniff6]

Search for answers, express grief, vent anger, offer condolences, dispute causes, it's here. What next: target an old folks home? Saddest thing is that we know there will be another senseless mass shooting somewhere, and another... What a national tragedy.

Sad but so so true unfortunately.I never knew just how my firearms are in your country over 3 hundred million!!!!

 

[04fizzer]

Sad but so so true unfortunately.I never knew just how my firearms are in your country over 3 hundred million!!!!

Yup, lots of guns. Because guns are fun. I call it "boom therapy". Heck, I'd almost be as happy just shooting blanks because that big boom is a LOT of fun!

But I also hunt, and depending on what I hunt requires a different gun. They all have a purpose, even my "evil" AR-15 that I'm in the process of building.

 

[Ssky0078]

Sad but so so true unfortunately.I never knew just how my firearms are in your country over 3 hundred million!!!!

I forget the exact statistic but the US gun owners account for less than 1% of the world population but has something like 60 or 70% of the guns.

 

[04fizzer]

I forget the exact statistic but the US gun owners account for less than 1% of the world population but has something like 60 or 70% of the guns.

I believe there was actually a Japanese big wig back around WWII that didn't want to invade the US because so many citizens were armed.

 

[FIZZER6]

I can understand the purpose of a rifle (hunting, target practice, vermin control), but a hand gun has only one purpose (to cause harm to another individual).

Just had to comment on this. This is untrue.

The purpose of a handgun is to be compact and fire projectiles.

How the user chooses to use it is on the user, not the inanimate object.

Handguns are the preferred defensive weapon of law enforcement and citizens worldwide to protect themselves from violence. Sure you can protect yourself in your home with a shotgun but you can't carry a shotgun on your person when you are out of your home (and most vulnerable).