Shootings

[Neal]

That is crazy about the school teacher, if she was hot I wouldn't of said anything and fantasized about her.

Not to split hairs but I was referring to the psychological term semantics not the linguistic use of the term

Semantics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the short idea of how it works wiki sums it up. Semantic learning/learners are those that can quickly grasp words but often don't make the connection to their individual meaning, instead rather getting the gist of it. My point was this young kids could easily watch the news and get the gist of get a gun, go into a school, shoot up the place but didn't understand the actual meaning or relevance of taking human life. And at 20 years old I would sincerely doubt that he was not aware of school shootings since according to the lovely source of all info, wikipedia, there has been 20 school shootings since 2000s alone.

From what I understand is some schools are even teaching disaster/shooter preparedness drills to faculty (not sure about students) because of the increase in violent activity.
List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That doesn't even make sense to a half way normal person. Do you think kids seeing car wrecks and people being drawn out on stretchers fighting for their lives on the news think, "Hey look an accident on the news I am going to go out and crash my car in somebody?"

I don't, I think the kids will be more likely to take driving a vehicle more seriously to avoid having the same thing happen to them and so does driving school that is why they show terrible wrecks in videos.

Likewise, I don't see any half normal kid seeing shootings on TV seeing the devastation and wanting to go out and do shootings. I see them being concerned about being a victim or their friends of family becoming the next victim too and more likely to report suspicious behavior of classmates to adults to prevent situations like this from happening again.

You know something like this: "http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/oklahoma-police-stopped-a-school-shooting-friday.html

Oklahoma Police Stopped Another School Shooting on Friday
By Andre Tartar

A Bartlesville High School senior is being held on $1 million bail, having been arrested after a fellow student overheard him sharing plans to kill his classmates. Investigators don't think the plot is related to the massacre that took place in Newtown, Connecticut. We're not sure which would be better but, either way, we're just glad he didn't get a chance to follow through on the plan."

Yes, i do think news help encourage these students turn the next possible killer in when in the past they may have looked over the situation, but now seeing terrible things can be when left unchecked students are being more alert and taking action.

 

[Ssky0078]

That doesn't even make sense to a half way normal person. Do you think kids seeing car wrecks and people being drawn out on stretchers fighting for their lives on the news think, "Hey look an accident on the news I am going to go out and crash my car in somebody?"

I don't, I think the kids will be more likely to take driving a vehicle more seriously to avoid having the same thing happen to them and so does driving school that is why they show terrible wrecks in videos.

Likewise, I don't see any half normal kid seeing shootings on TV seeing the devastation and wanting to go out and do shootings. I see them being concerned about being a victim or their friends of family becoming the next victim too and more likely to report suspicious behavior of classmates to adults to prevent situations like this from happening again.

You know something like this: "http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/oklahoma-police-stopped-a-school-shooting-friday.html

Oklahoma Police Stopped Another School Shooting on Friday
By Andre Tartar

A Bartlesville High School senior is being held on $1 million bail, having been arrested after a fellow student overheard him sharing plans to kill his classmates. Investigators don't think the plot is related to the massacre that took place in Newtown, Connecticut. We're not sure which would be better but, either way, we're just glad he didn't get a chance to follow through on the plan."

Yes, i do think news help encourage these students turn the next possible killer in when in the past they may have looked over the situation, but now seeing terrible things can be when left unchecked students are being more alert and taking action.

I think that you are comparing 'norms' to someone who is suffering from a mental health/personality disorder.

I can remember my drivers ed class, some of the guys in that class were laughing when they showed the crash videos and said they "F"'ed up and should have done such and such thing instead. (We also had kids that brought guns to school and it was just the way it was back in the 90s when the gang stuff started getting crazy, nobody snitched on them because their friends were even more scary)

Heres the problem with increased vigilance without understanding. You will have witch trials. I can remember back in the 90s some kid getting in trouble in Seattle. He was pissed of at getting picked on and said something to the effect of "going postal" on the kids picking on him. The guy made an off the cuff remark to try to get the bullys off his back but ended up dealing with the consequences. But, in reality the cause was the bullying and disrespect in the first place.

Treat the cause rather than treating the effects, key to prevention.

One last thing to consider if the kids watching tv and thinking about doing something noticed that if they say anything that they will be put in jail and have $1 million bail (stupid, just for show, it's not bugsy seagel) they will keep their mouth shut and they will plan and it will be an even bigger shock when it goes down. It would be better to encourage respectful campuses, people that are having difficulties to get help, and respect for their mental health care.

 

[why_not_Zoidberg?]

What's happening is all the obscene TV shows, movies, rap music, video games, etc. are finally beginning to catch up with us.

This stuff makes me so incredibly angry. I think technology is bringing the world together in one sense and isolating people in their own twisted worlds in another sense.

I don't think tv, video games, etc have anything at all to do with it. I play FPS games, watch 'bad' movies, etc, and I have never had the urge to go on a killing spree.

It's a lack of responsibility on the parent's of these people's part, and how they were raised.

Also, it's more sensationalized and widely known when something like this happens these days, because of the internet and live news shows. If this happened 100 years ago, it would not have been seen as such a big deal, more of an isolated tragedy. In effect, because so many people find out about these things and have opinions on them, you are in effect making them into martyrs.

 

[04fizzer]

One crazy with a full automatic gun can do a terrible amount of harm. Stricter gun law to outlaw certain types of guns and who can own one could reduce mass shootings. I don't believe that guns should be banned but the general public shoudn't be able to own a M16.

Fully automatic guns ARE illegal, and no civilian is allowed to own an M16.

 

[why_not_Zoidberg?]

Fully automatic guns ARE illegal, and no civilian is allowed to own an M16.

I don't understand why people spout off without knowing these laws... I don't think the answer is more gun control, I think the answer lies somewhere in better mental health knowledge and treatment, throughout our society.

Also, I think administrators, such as principals, should have firearm training and the ability to conceal carry.

 

[04fizzer]

I absolutely believe people should own guns but just don't believe the untrained or the insane should have access to military grade weapons. People always believe that if you restrict my right to own a certain type of gun you will take away the guns I have. Does anyone truely believe that a 40 year old kindergarten teacher with an assault rifle is going to help defend the homeland.

You act as if anyone can go out and buy a gun. This is false. All gun purchases must first go through a background check before the purchase is complete. The problem is that someone may have a mental problem but it isn't reported, because they have not yet committed a crime. THAT is where our system is flawed.

It should be noted that this kid STOLE the guns from his mother. He didn't own them. He shouldn't have had them (and didn't, right up until he stole them). He committed several heinous, disgusting, awful acts (and illegal) with weapons he illegally obtained. How is taking guns away from people going to change that?

 

[04fizzer]

I don't understand why people spout off without knowing these laws... I don't think the answer is more gun control, I think the answer lies somewhere in better mental health knowledge and treatment, throughout our society.

Also, I think administrators, such as principals, should have firearm training and the ability to conceal carry.

Mental health, I think, is the key to all of this. But in the end, there are multiple problems in this society today. There isn't one answer to the problem, but several.

I do agree that admins should be allowed to carry. Or hire retired police/military to work undercover as maintenance workers, to have some sort of instant response team IN the building. The shooter in Oregon retreated and shot himself at the first sign of resistance (a CCW holder attempted to shoot back at him, but didn't as there were too many people around). The shooter in CT took the coward's way out when police arrived. Had someone been in the school to oppose him, things may have been different.

 

[Tailgate]

I wonder about what role dad played in the maggot's (too kind a term) life? This was the mother of hissy fits. I wonder if anybody ever kicked his teeth in sometime during his pathetic life because it probably would've done some good since I suspect he never got a reckoning. He was the mother of all bullies, bigger than Saddam Hussein

 

[why_not_Zoidberg?]

Mental health, I think, is the key to all of this. But in the end, there are multiple problems in this society today. There isn't one answer to the problem, but several.

I do agree that admins should be allowed to carry. Or hire retired police/military to work undercover as maintenance workers, to have some sort of instant response team IN the building. The shooter in Oregon retreated and shot himself at the first sign of resistance (a CCW holder attempted to shoot back at him, but didn't as there were too many people around). The shooter in CT took the coward's way out when police arrived. Had someone been in the school to oppose him, things may have been different.

Couldn't agree more. People in general want one defined answer to their problems. They fear what they do not understand, and our problems are more ambiguous than a cursory glance will reveal.

 

[Ssky0078]

Fully automatic guns ARE illegal, and no civilian is allowed to own an M16.

You can own a fully automatic gun in AZ. In fact there is a guy in Glendale that will make you an MP5. You just need to do some things to get it.

1. Pay for a full auto weapon - You can get a Mac10 for about 5-6000, an AK47 about 10-15000, an MP5 about 20000, Thompson machine gun about 25000 and a military M16 about 30000.

2. Apply for a federal tax tamp as per the NFA Class 3 Tax Stamp. You give the feds $200. "All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain approval from the ATF, obtain a signature from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) who is the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and fingerprints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax."

3. Go out in the desert and shoot 'em up.

I think it's basically if the gun is manufactured before 1986 you can buy it full auto. The other thing that people do, like the guys making the MP5's in Glendale, is build a new gun and then add a fully auto sear that costs them 15k about to buy out of an older gun or decomissioned weapon then put it in the new body. You still have to go through the ATF tax stamp thing for that.

04fizzer I saw you're from NY and they have a bunch of different gun laws. Although not always followed because I have a friend who has a fully auto Saiga 12 shotgun there.

 

[04fizzer]

You can own a fully automatic gun in AZ. In fact there is a guy in Glendale that will make you an MP5. You just need to do some things to get it.

1. Pay for a full auto weapon - You can get a Mac10 for about 5-6000, an AK47 about 10-15000, an MP5 about 20000, Thompson machine gun about 25000 and a military M16 about 30000.

2. Apply for a federal tax tamp as per the NFA Class 3 Tax Stamp. You give the feds $200. "All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain approval from the ATF, obtain a signature from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) who is the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and fingerprints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax."

3. Go out in the desert and shoot 'em up.

I think it's basically if the gun is manufactured before 1986 you can buy it full auto. The other thing that people do, like the guys making the MP5's in Glendale, is build a new gun and then add a fully auto sear that costs them 15k about to buy out of an older gun or decomissioned weapon then put it in the new body. You still have to go through the ATF tax stamp thing for that.

04fizzer I saw you're from NY and they have a bunch of different gun laws. Although not always followed because I have a friend who has a fully auto Saiga 12 shotgun there.

I forgot about the ATF tax. But either way, he says to make them illegal as if they were readily available to any average joe, and that's not the case. They're still regulated.

NY's gun laws are pretty ridiculous, and NYC's are even worse.

 

[Ssky0078]

You act as if anyone can go out and buy a gun. This is false. All gun purchases must first go through a background check before the purchase is complete. The problem is that someone may have a mental problem but it isn't reported, because they have not yet committed a crime. THAT is where our system is flawed.

I take it you've never purchased a gun. The background check consists of answering a few questions and the gunshop calling the local ATF office to see if you're on any of the bad guy lists and that's it. They fax in your app and if it looks good then you get a gun. I bought my first gun last year after some stranger decided to stick his head in my house and ran off. It took about 10-15 minutes to get approved.

The questions consist of if you've ever had any felony issues, if you are an illegal drug user, have you ever been found mentallly defective/or spent time in a mental hospital, are you a legal US citizen, found guilty of misdemeanor domestic violence and dishonerable discharge from military. I you answer yes to any of those then there is a 3 day wait period while they check it out more thoroughly. You can answer no to all of them and if you're not flagged on the bad guy list you get a gun that day.

 

[Ssky0078]

BTW it is somewhat difficult to get somebody found to be mentally defective and/or institutionalize them.

Each state has it's own form that needs to be filled out by a psychiatrist/psychiatric NP (most states)/psychologist (few states) and then submitted to a judge. The court can then hold a hearing, etc, and then the person can be institutionalized.

As I was going through my custody stuff in '10 I saw the people that did my parenting time visits try to do this to a guy. He ended up having to go and stay at the hospital for 24 hours but they couldn't find any observable problems so he was released. He would have to answer that question on the ATF form as yes but since he wasn't found to be mentally defective he would probably be able to get a firearm.

 

[04fizzer]

I take it you've never purchased a gun. The background check consists of answering a few questions and the gunshop calling the local ATF office to see if you're on any of the bad guy lists and that's it. They fax in your app and if it looks good then you get a gun. I bought my first gun last year after some stranger decided to stick his head in my house and ran off. It took about 10-15 minutes to get approved.

The questions consist of if you've ever had any felony issues, if you are an illegal drug user, have you ever been found mentallly defective/or spent time in a mental hospital, are you a legal US citizen, found guilty of misdemeanor domestic violence and dishonerable discharge from military. I you answer yes to any of those then there is a 3 day wait period while they check it out more thoroughly. You can answer no to all of them and if you're not flagged on the bad guy list you get a gun that day.

I actually own several guns, and am ~95% done building my first AR15. I know all about the background check.

But your second point is spot on. In an article I read, aside from guns, the other common factor in all of these tragedies is mental illness. And as you pointed out, unless someone with a mental health problem commits a crime, there's virtually nothing that can be done, nor is there a record of such.

I truly believe that more needs to be done in the way of mental health in the US. Either through more support, or just more understanding of it. It's a scary thing to think about because it's not something that can be visibly seen. It's not like a broken leg where it's obvious what's wrong, or, since we're on a motorcycle forum, as obvious as a broken tooth on a sprocket. It's almost like a "black magic" when it comes to mental health, and the like. It brings to my mind the phrase, "if it can't be seen, does it exist?" If someone is not right in the head, you can't see it unless you're close to them and watch them and notice a change, or a particular behavior, or until they do something heinous. And even then, there's very little you can do.

I strongly believe that the majority of the problems with these shootings isn't guns, but the mental health system, and even the stigma that surrounds mental health, and people with mental diseases.

 

[The Toecutter]

The Problem is with mental Illness........ and being the Step-Father of a mentaly Ill child let me say it takes an incredibly long time (2 years) to go through a complicated process of screening and testing and rejection,and finaly a Hearing with a Federal judge to get my child disabled.I did not turn a blind eye to the violence and issues with authoritie figures my child was having.it is extremly hard to deal with the social stygma attached to mental illness,but it is much more re-assuring knowing that my childs teachers and the authorities are aware of my childs condition should an episode arrise protecting my child and other innocent people,by empowering them with the knowledge that there is a comprehension problem with reality.

 

[04fizzer]

The Problem is with mental Illness........ and being the Step-Father of a mentaly Ill child let me say it takes an incredibly long time (2 years) to go through a complicated process of screening and testing and rejection,and finaly a Hearing with a Federal judge to get my child disabled.I did not turn a blind eye to the violence and issues with authoritie figures my child was having.it is extremly hard to deal with the social stygma attached to mental illness,but it is much more re-assuring knowing that my childs teachers and the authorities are aware of my childs condition should an episode arrise protecting my child and other innocent people,by empowering them with the knowledge that there is a comprehension problem with reality.

And you are a good parent for doing that. The problem is the ones that don't have parents like you. The kids that "slip through the cracks" and end up on their own, with no support.

 

[Ssky0078]

The Problem is with mental Illness........ and being the Step-Father of a mentaly Ill child let me say it takes an incredibly long time (2 years) to go through a complicated process of screening and testing and rejection,and finaly a Hearing with a Federal judge to get my child disabled.I did not turn a blind eye to the violence and issues with authoritie figures my child was having.it is extremly hard to deal with the social stygma attached to mental illness,but it is much more re-assuring knowing that my childs teachers and the authorities are aware of my childs condition should an episode arrise protecting my child and other innocent people,by empowering them with the knowledge that there is a comprehension problem with reality.

I am impressed/amazed/grateful that you went through the process. I'm sure it was very difficult and I hope you had good support along the way, although I'm sure you faced some PITA's along the way.

It goes back to one of my original points, that treating all people with respect can often help prevent problems. I hope your sons teachers and peers are able to understand and treat him better with their increased understanding and don't just get caught up in the stigma

 

[sniff6]

As a parent my heart goes out to those affected by this tragedy.so so sorry

 

[Ssky0078]

I actually own several guns, and am ~95% done building my first AR15. I know all about the background check.

But your second point is spot on. In an article I read, aside from guns, the other common factor in all of these tragedies is mental illness. And as you pointed out, unless someone with a mental health problem commits a crime, there's virtually nothing that can be done, nor is there a record of such.

I truly believe that more needs to be done in the way of mental health in the US. Either through more support, or just more understanding of it. It's a scary thing to think about because it's not something that can be visibly seen. It's not like a broken leg where it's obvious what's wrong, or, since we're on a motorcycle forum, as obvious as a broken tooth on a sprocket. It's almost like a "black magic" when it comes to mental health, and the like. It brings to my mind the phrase, "if it can't be seen, does it exist?" If someone is not right in the head, you can't see it unless you're close to them and watch them and notice a change, or a particular behavior, or until they do something heinous. And even then, there's very little you can do.

I strongly believe that the majority of the problems with these shootings isn't guns, but the mental health system, and even the stigma that surrounds mental health, and people with mental diseases.

I knew I was going to be wrong on the gun ownership for you:BLAA:. But, you were wrong about owning automatic weapons:BLAA:

The problem with mental health is many fold. Much of it is misunderstood. A rational system for diagnosis and treatment really hasn't come about till the last 20-30 years. People still receive electrical shock therapy, heavy psychotic medications, and all sorts of just plain crap medicine. Talk therapy is moderately effective at best and time/labor/financially intensive at the least.

Food for thought. Samuel Hahnemann an 18-19th century physician and homeopathic practitioner reported that he was able to cure a psychotic patient with only 'kindness and rational discourse'.
I have used this approach with all of my patients and found that the majority of them react well to it. Often if you follow the line of thinking for someone with mental illness they have a glitch or error somewhere that makes them process thing differently or they don't understand the situation and consequences the same as most people would. You can in some ways help regrogram them but it does require a lot of patience and kindness.

The worse part is that people in general are not kind or helpful to people that are socially different/awkward. Most people with mental illness have some level of social difficulty.

 

[04fizzer]

I knew I was going to be wrong on the gun ownership for you:BLAA:. But, you were wrong about owning automatic weapons:BLAA:

The problem with mental health is many fold. Much of it is misunderstood. A rational system for diagnosis and treatment really hasn't come about till the last 20-30 years. People still receive electrical shock therapy, heavy psychotic medications, and all sorts of just plain crap medicine. Talk therapy is moderately effective at best and time/labor/financially intensive at the least.

Food for thought. Samuel Hahnemann an 18-19th century physician and homeopathic practitioner reported that he was able to cure a psychotic patient with only 'kindness and rational discourse'.
I have used this approach with all of my patients and found that the majority of them react well to it. Often if you follow the line of thinking for someone with mental illness they have a glitch or error somewhere that makes them process thing differently or they don't understand the situation and consequences the same as most people would. You can in some ways help regrogram them but it does require a lot of patience and kindness.

The worse part is that people in general are not kind or helpful to people that are socially different/awkward. Most people with mental illness have some level of social difficulty.

It's definitely difficult to be nice to a person, and spend time with the person to help them work through things when they're either threatening to kill you, or actually trying to. Obviously this is an extreme case, and I do see what you're saying.

In the town I grew up with, there was a man with down's syndrome (I know, not the same as a schizophrenic or other mental illness). He lived well into his 50's if not later, which I learned is quite unheard of. But a large factor in that, people say, is how he was accepted by everyone in town. Everyone knew Drew. He was on the sidelines of the football games on Friday nights "helping" the team. He was in the gym during basketball games. He was allowed to be out on the court and play around during halftime.