Norway's harshest punishment is 20 years??? really?

[Capo79]

There's one crucial thing the second world war taught us; if one respond to hatred with hatred, one will never see the end of hatred. That's why we, the Norwegians, respond to the evil the way we do.

I don't know if the American media, or any other foreign media for that matter, showed the rest of the world the rose ceremony held in Oslo a few days ago? I attended this myself, along with 250.000 others. Don't tell me if that doesn't give a very strong signal to what we think of this evil?

We don't have death penalties (that is contradictory to the human rights), we don't have life sentences, but we do have a very strong sensation of moral and ethical right and wrong. We're a small country and society where you're no more than two or three handshakes away from anyone. The fact that this person now is an outcast in every regard, is possibly a more severe punishment than anything else. This is probably very difficult to understand unless you're scandinavian, but these are facts and a way of life.

Besides: Crime rates are much, much lower here than anywhere else. May it be so that harsh penalties not always is the correct answer?

 

[Dan]

Capo79,

First of all, I'd like to say that it was a shock to us to find out about the tragedy 7 days ago. It's very very sad.

Concerning your point. I think, the most important thing is that Norwegians will be satisfied with this punishment.

On the other hand...You mentioned WWII. This war also taught us that we should not play games with insane guys. Tolerance to these guys can lead us to the next war...

 

[dxh24]

I agree, but isn't pumping lead in 70+ people on an island also contradictory to human rights? i think any rights he had were revoked the second his finger pulled the trigger... As a whole perhaps Norway is satisfied with 20 years, but if i was a betting man, i'd say if you went to one of the victims families they wouldn't be satisfied with 20 years... I sure as hell wouldn't

 

[Jugro]

@Capo79: As a Dane I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

@Everybody who think Norway should execute Breivik.
According to Politiken(Danish Newspaper) a hit has been placed on him..

 

[dxh24]

Article brings up a good point, i'm sure he's going to have to live in fear of inmates the next 20+ years, sounds like they have it out for him

 

[Evitzee]

Norway, like most of Europe, learned the wrong lesson in WWII. Instead of learning to fight evil they learned that fighting is evil. These secular states all believe punishment is a waste of time so why bother. The perp is just misunderstood or misguided, or insane. It's a defect in the fuzzy social development of the secular left.

 

[DownrangeFuture]

Besides: Crime rates are much, much lower here than anywhere else. May it be so that harsh penalties not always is the correct answer?

It's probably more related to being a close knit society and having parents that raise their children right. "Raise your children in the way they should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from it." Unless they have mental instabilities, this seems to be the case more often than not.

Being close knit also means that no one feels like "But the gangs and drugs aren't in my neighborhood. What do you want me to do about it?" If it's your cousin, aunt or uncle, or good friend, you're going to do something about it. No? Japan is another very clost knit society, and look at their crime rates and such. Not much different from Norway. However, their penalties are quite harsh compared to Norway, or even the US.

Both countries also tend to suffer from rather severe xenophobia. So it's kind of a give and take thing. The more cloistered you become, the easier it is to watch out for everybody, and the more homogenious and phobic of change you become as well. Japan even has businesses and busses that forigeners can't use. And while it's not illegal, if you're sitting in a seat and a local walks in, and you don't give him your seat... Bad days. It's not quite the US of the pre-1960's but it's fairly close. It's so bad, they really didn't want other countries help after the tsunami. Too many foreigners in the homeland.

And shooting 70+ people? That man is a terrorist. He is using terror to forward his manefesto. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Just sayin'.

 

[Jugro]

Norway, like most of Europe, learned the wrong lesson in WWII. Instead of learning to fight evil they learned that fighting is evil. These secular states all believe punishment is a waste of time so why bother. The perp is just misunderstood or misguided, or insane. It's a defect in the fuzzy social development of the secular left.

Of course the US has shown that Capital punishment is the way to go, with all those empty prison ready to be turned into malls

By the way doesn't the 1st Amendment make the US a secular state?

 

[redballs]

This guy would like nothing more than to be executed and become a martyr for his cause. He wants a trial to use as a platform for his political/religious ideology. The most fitting punishment would be to declare him unfit to stand trial at this time. Keep him locked up in a psychiatric facility where he can be studied like a lab rat. Find out what makes him tick and how to identify others like him. Hopefully he will come to understand the consequences of his actions one day in the future. That would be the worst punishment... realizing the error of his ways and regretting all the young lives he snuffed out. Then you could put him on trial and give him 20 years to sit and think about it.

+1 great idea's, you should work as a consultant for DA's office.

 

[Nelly]

give him his 21 years and then let him rot in some mental institution for my part. I just hope he doesn't get a platform to spread his ideas anymore because that would make him feel like he's winning...

+1, For me it is very important that he doe's not obtain his political platform.

Nelly

 

[rjo3491]

Norway, like most of Europe, learned the wrong lesson in WWII. Instead of learning to fight evil they learned that fighting is evil. These secular states all believe punishment is a waste of time so why bother. The perp is just misunderstood or misguided, or insane. It's a defect in the fuzzy social development of the secular left.

It's their country. Let them live as they choose.

 

[Evitzee]

By the way doesn't the 1st Amendment make the US a secular state?

Actually, no, the 1st Amendent has nothing to do with making the US a secular state. The Founding Fathers had no issue with religion playing an important part in America. They celebrated the way religion was a cohesive force. Americans rights come from GOD, therefore they cannot be taken away by some government. That's the essence and source of America's freedom and liberty. Many presidents invoked the name of God (Lincoln and FDR come to mind) in their public speeches. IN GOD WE TRUST is on all our money and is chiseled into the marble above the podium in the House of Representatives where the President gives his State of the Union address. All the 1st Amendent says is a particular religion cannot be adopted by the Federal Government or compel anyone to adhere to any religion. Unfortunately the secular left has obfuscated this principal to promote the falsehood that absolutely no hint or acknowledgement of religion can exist in Government. It's a false argument but has been co opted by the secular media, and by the left Universities, as fact (which is why you'll never see the In God We Trust on TV during major speeches, it makes the media too uncomfortable with the facts).

It's their country. Let them live as they choose.

If we had done that in WWII with Hitler where would we have been now? And if the US didn't have a presence in Europe since then what would the USSR done in a Europe that won't defend itself? It is easy to say let them live as they want, but the USA could not allow the prospect of a Communist Europe to unfold. The US has been the biggest source of peace in the world since WWI and should have been acknowledged as such by the Nobel Peace Prize somewhere along the way, but that'll never happen. Instead the elitists gave it to Obama for, what exactly......?

 

[rjo3491]

If we had done that in WWII with Hitler where would we have been now? And if the US didn't have a presence in Europe since then what would the USSR done in a Europe that won't defend itself?

Looking at the two train wrecks we've created in the Middle East [along with our current domestic problems], I still think it's time for us to focus on our own issues and let other countries solve their own problems. I sincerely wish Norway the best of luck and hope we provide any assistance requested.

 

[The Dude]

Actually, [snip]

You can express your views without ridiculing those of others. Let's keep the ideology and revisionist history out of it. This isn't the place. And it's, at best, only tangentially relevant to the topic of discussion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, beliefs, faith, etc. The fact that you're confident in yours does not make it any more valid. In fact, if history is any reference, it is those most confident in their beliefs that are often the most misguided.

 

[Humperdinkel]

You can express your views without ridiculing those of others. Let's keep the ideology and revisionist history out of it. This isn't the place. And it's, at best, only tangentially relevant to the topic of discussion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, beliefs, faith, etc. The fact that you're confident in yours does not make it any more valid. In fact, if history is any reference, it is those most confident in their beliefs that are often the most misguided.

Bravo & well said :thumbup:

 

[rjo3491]

Bravo & well said :thumbup:

Ah, you're both right [well, maybe not about the Packers]!. At least we can all agree on the FZ6!

 

[Capo79]

Actually, no, the 1st Amendent has nothing to do with making the US a secular state.[...]

My friend, you have misunderstood the terminolology secular. By definition, the US is formally way more secular than i.e Norway. We have a state church, some of the ministers have to be members of the church in order to run that particular ministry and a certain portion of the members of government also have to be members of the church. This is all dictated by our constitution. On the other hand, we as society are more secular than you. People move away from religion for various reasons, which I find to be a positive thing. I am myself conservative in my political views without being religious.

Your preivious post regarding the way Europe and the US deal with conflicts around the world: We obviously have a greater respect for the UN. No question about it, but when they say it's time to intervene in order to prevent genocide etc, we contribute. Norway has only six or seven F-16's in Libya, yet those planes have droppet more than 6-700 bombs since the campaign started. The US, on the other hand, has gone it's own way disregarding the rest of the world in many issues, especially in Iraq. I find this to be a very sad and disrespectful thing, and obviously it hasn't made many good relationships because of it. The good reputation the US had around the world up until the 90's, have in many respects been turned into the total opposite.

I have had the fortune to travel extensively around the world, and every time I meet Americans, they hesitate to admit they're Americans. Many say they're Canadians. How sad is that?

When this tragedy hit us, we did not say "We're gonna get those who did this and kick their asses". No, the person who did this, regardless of how evil the acts were, are going to get a fair trial. He will then do his time, whatever it will be ( I don't think he will ever be released from prison). Revenge is just not the solution to anything. Isn't that what the Bible preaches? Turn the other cheek, or something like that? Obviously, the level of secularity won't matter in order to understand or not understand this.

Thanks to everyone for the warm thoughts, by the way!