BD43's mod saved my butt today!

[abraxas]

The single beam headlight really was silly of the designers. My next mission is this mod, except i want the left beam yellow, and the right beam white.

Lane splitting, especially in mist or rain, where everyone has lights on, really highlighted to me how much more visible yellow is, although i still don't trust it entirely, for my own vision.

So, yellow and white, it's as much as i could do.

 

[cap'n]

as a former motor officer, i can tell you ive reacted a time or two against cars trying to take over the space i occupied. i can also tell you that people alot of times dont even hear sirens, so a horn doesnt stand a chance in that case.

react first, live to honk later.

I can also tell you as a 10,000 mile/year Boston commuter that a quick blip of the horn - and I mean QUICK, because I have my finger hovering over it anytime I think someone may have incentive to come into my lane - stops someone from gently merging into my lane about once a week. My point isn't that you're wrong, because essentially you are not... evasion is usually the safest way. But the two are not usually mutually exclusive. If I am covering my horn with my left thumb, I am not compromised in any way from physically evading. At that moment when I see someone edging into my lane I have two choices: chip the horn first, or immediately start doing something physically radical (jamming on the brakes, nailing the gas, diving into the shoulder strip, etc). And what I am saying (to be clear) is that in that situation I hit the horn first, WHILE tensing up for Plan B, and if they stop merging into me (95%+ of the time), then radical physical stuff isn't required.

Let's not gloss over the dangers of slamming on the brakes in the left lane, with people some unknown distance behind you. It's easy to say that it's safer to brake or dive left in every case, but if you got rear ended at 75mph when you could've just hit the horn, you still failed.

Summary: You don't have to do just one, you can try the horn AS you prepare to evade. If the horn worked, awesome, no need to do something dodgey. Make sense? And as always, your mileage may vary, but I will not really take anyone else's advice for how to survive in / around Boston. I've become fairly adept at this, through a lot of careful learning over 5 years.

 

[Tailgate]

Re post #41: I have to disagree! A horn can be invaluable as part of a defensive driving routine (bike or cage). Often, that is my first line of defense and will preclude an unecessary and possibly risky second defensive action. Example: during lane splitting through crawling traffic, I will have not only my fingers over the front brake lever, but also my thumb at the ready over the horn button along with my fingers ready to pull in the clutch. Gosh, I can't tell you how many times a timely blast of the horn has precluded a situation from going from an "oops" to possibly a much more serious result. I believe I even recall some posts/threads on this forum where somebody has gone down in a panic stop when a simple blast of the horn would likely have precluded the whole episode. Some situations are inevitable: being in a blind spot, a left turner or pedestrian appearing to not be aware of you approaching, going around one lane blind corner. In fact, in certain given situations, I would take a horn over even gear.

 

[ibsrp]

Another thing to consider is that you can actually adjust the aim of the headlights
on the FZ6. Check your owners manual and you will see how to do it. Even after doing
that mod I still felt they were not bright enough and it turned out they just needed to be
adjusted.

 

[tjhess74]

cap'n, i think were saying the same thing, just two different ways. yes, for overall defensive driving (pre-planning/pre-incident), yes the horn is a good 'hey im here' tool, as i do that too. it also works well if you practice using both plans-horn and maneuvering, which you obviously do too. however, many people cant chew gum and ride a motorcycle at the same time...or at least they dont practice it. i dare say that is your average rider. in my experience, your average rider practices little or nothing on a regular basis. no braking or evading drills. a small percentage of riders do this on a regular basis. in other words, i think were on the same page.

my main original reference was to the loud pipes comment during an actual incident. when someone is actively coming at me, that is not the time for sound, it is the time for action. a car can drive through sound and hit you. it cannot hit you if you are not there. so, sure they might hear the horn and retreat...but then again, they might not. i am not the kind of guy who will stake my safety on 'hoping they hear me'.

perhaps its my years as an emergency vehicle operator. the siren (and lights) really mean nothing (even worse for bikes!). most hear/see, but many dont and they will pull out/lane change right in front of you (it only takes one to ruin your ride!). so if some dont get that message, then the horn has no chance. ask any evo and they can tell you stories of how people just dont hear/see emergency vehicles! start with fire truck engineers, they have great driver stories.

it only takes one person not hearing that horn (that some rely upon so religiously) to make you realize that it wont stop a car/distracted driver. nobody, car or bike, should stake their safety on 'hoping' youre seen/heard. as cap'n said, looking ahead for danger is the only good plan.

also, keep in mind, deaf people have drivers licenses too. honk/rev at them and see what happens. :don'tknow:

none of my posts were meant to demean or lecture anyone here, i just dont want people relying on the false sense of security a horn can give. it may stop someone 99 times out of 100, but that 100th one is gonna hurt.

 

[tjhess74]

Re post #41: I have to disagree! A horn can be invaluable as part of a defensive driving routine (bike or cage). Often, that is my first line of defense and will preclude an unecessary and possibly risky second defensive action. Example: during lane splitting through crawling traffic, I will have not only my fingers over the front brake lever, but also my thumb at the ready over the horn button along with my fingers ready to pull in the clutch. Gosh, I can't tell you how many times a timely blast of the horn has precluded a situation from going from an "oops" to possibly a much more serious result. I believe I even recall some posts/threads on this forum where somebody has gone down in a panic stop when a simple blast of the horn would likely have precluded the whole episode. Some situations are inevitable: being in a blind spot, a left turner or pedestrian appearing to not be aware of you approaching, going around one lane blind corner. In fact, in certain given situations, I would take a horn over even gear.

again, this is another good example of active defensive driving (preplanning). the horn is fantastic for this use.

i will retort the 'gone down in a panic stop' comment with this...it would be interesting to go back to those people and see how often they practiced emergency braking prior to their get-off. there are alot of variables involved with stopping quickly, but i would venture to guess that many of them didnt practice braking skills at all. there is a big difference between 'panic braking' and 'emergency braking'...one is a shot in the dark and the other takes practice.

side note to using the horn to stop people from hitting you...reaction time. you hit the horn, they hear it, they process the thought, they react to it, their vehicle (if in good mechanical condition) responds appropriately and quickly. that takes time. the amount of distance you travel at 45mph, 55mph, or higher is staggering. when i say that inches and fractions of a second matter, it is the truth.

 

[cap'n]

cap'n, i think were saying the same thing, just two different ways.

Completely agree. If covering that horn made me in ANY way slower or unable to maneuver, I wouldn't use it. But it doesn't, and the situation that I see so often - car on my right slowly merging left into my lane because they didn't look or didn't see me - is almost always best cleared up with a horn blip. When we're going almost the exact same speed, my horn is just feet away from their ear, and honestly I have yet to have anyone not hear it. Reactions may have varied, and yes someday someone will not hear it, but so far (a lot of chances, sadly) just about everyone has heard it and stayed in their lane without forcing me to do anything hasty.

Oh and the panic braking practice has ABSOLUTELY saved my butt. I know how to get both tires on the fizzer riiiiight up to that point of traction loss, and just last summer it meant the difference between going over someone's car hood and going around their front bumper in full control. Also of critical help to me in that instance: Habitually paying f_cking attention to everyone all the time, assuming people do not see you until proven otherwise, letting off the gas if there's even a CHANCE someone could pull out in front of you (the less speed you have to scrub off the better), and SIPDE (Scan Interpret Predict Determine Execute)... ie, "know where you're gonna go if that guy pulls out in front of you because he just might do it."

PRACTICE, kids. Practice.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

horns are useless for the same reason...EVADE the threat first, make noise later when your safe.

backwards?
ive been a part of many driving/riding safety courses, and you will not find one ANYWHERE that teaches honking/yelling/revving as a means of avoiding trouble. they will teach you to drive/ride defensively instead by maneuvering out of harms way.

react first, live to honk later.

Well then obviously you have never taken the MSF curriculum, as it is discussed several times in the classroom in addition to showing how it should be used in the form of audio/visual.

yes, for overall defensive driving (pre-planning/pre-incident), yes the horn is a good 'hey im here' tool, as i do that too. it also works well if you practice using both plans-horn and maneuvering, which you obviously do too. however, many people cant chew gum and ride a motorcycle at the same time...or at least they dont practice it. i dare say that is your average rider. in my experience, your average rider practices little or nothing on a regular basis. no braking or evading drills. a small percentage of riders do this on a regular basis. in other words, i think were on the same page.

.

Well, you just said it yourself, why then would you make some silly statement about horns are worthless?

You are correct on this statement, very few people practice on a regular basis trying to improve their muscle memory and physical skills.

No matter how quickly the hazard appears, I have the ability to cover the horn or even use it, and swerve or brake while using the horn if needed to all at the same time. It is automatically planted in my brain as muscle memory.

Once again, we cannot rely on our horns all the time but it does serve a purpose. And it is required by law that you are equipped with one in working order.

 

[tcmalker]

There is a difference between riding defensive and riding scared. I for one refused to be riding scared.

The only time I've used the horn is when someone in front of me is not paying attention and he has the green light. Otherwise, if some a-hole decide to come into my lane I simply swerve and accelerate in front or I just let off the throttle. Even though I ride fast, I always have an escape route planned. It's part of my defensive riding skill which I picked up from MSF.

 

[tjhess74]

vegas, im quite familiar with msf and other riding schools. they do say in the classroom that using a horn can be valuable, as it can be. but what do they have you do out on the course, evade or honk your horn? the proof to my point lies within the answer to that question.

i only said a horn was useless for stopping 4k pounds of rolling metal. remember, sound is porous, it cant stop anything from hitting you and there is no guarantee that the driver will hear it. in that sense, yes its useless. my words are very clear, dont read into them.

as others have metioned, a horn IN CONJUCTION with readiness/evasion maneuvers is perfectly acceptable and good practice...a horn being used as a preemptive strike if you will. relying solely on your noisemaker alone to protect your asphalt territory is very bad practice. as i said earlier, it may get someones attention most of the time, but it only takes one loud stereo to mess up your ride.

I'm speaking from experience here...many times saved by Leo Vince. As an example, some lady was trying to change into my lane, I gave a little throttle (vroom!) and the lady quickly went back.

i agree that riding scared is not good, you must ride prepared! but this is the quote that turned the conversation to this topic. maybe i am misunderstanding the above quote? tc, in it, it seems that you meant to rev your engine so she would hear you...or did you mean that you accelerated (evaded) out of her way, with the result being alot of noise?

if its that latter, than your latest post makes sense. if its the former, then you contridicted yourself. just trying to clarify...

my apologies, this has turned into a heck of a threadjack...:spank:

 

[Tailgate]

"if you are next to a car and it starts to come into your lane, why in the world would you waste valuable time by revving your engine and hope that makes them aware of your presence? if it doesnt, whats left in terms of options and time? horns are useless for the same reason...EVADE the threat first, make noise later when your safe."

tjhess74: the above passage of yours is what raised my eyebrows earlier.

 

[tjhess74]

tailgate, read post #50, paragraph 2. that should address your concern. i stand by that. a sound maker, or its sound waves are useless for stopping mass. simple physics.

this is easy. if someone is encroaching on your space, move...move and honk at the same time...doesnt matter. just dont hold your ground and 'hope' that they will hear you and react accordingly. from some of the posts in this thread, thats exactly what it sounds like some of you rely upon. some people dont hear, others dont car to hear, either way your day is ruined.

one more piece of food for thought then ill let this horse die, ever been in a luxury car recently? those suckers are QUIET! apparently rich folk dont want to listen to the commoners horns and loud exhausts! add a little music to the interior and the outside world is history. its enough of an issue that it was one of the topics of an leo traffic safety conference i attended a couple years ago.

 

[Motogiro]

:hijack:!!!!

 

[cap'n]

tailgate, read post #50, paragraph 2. that should address your concern. i stand by that. a sound maker, or its sound waves are useless for stopping mass. simple physics.

this is easy. if someone is encroaching on your space, move...move and honk at the same time...doesnt matter. just dont hold your ground and 'hope' that they will hear you and react accordingly. from some of the posts in this thread, thats exactly what it sounds like some of you rely upon. some people dont hear, others dont car to hear, either way your day is ruined.

one more piece of food for thought then ill let this horse die, ever been in a luxury car recently? those suckers are QUIET! apparently rich folk dont want to listen to the commoners horns and loud exhausts! add a little music to the interior and the outside world is history. its enough of an issue that it was one of the topics of an leo traffic safety conference i attended a couple years ago.

Excellent points. I guess I was looking at it from more of a practical point of view... if I'm walking down the hall and some guy is about to run smack into me typing on his blackberry, am I really going to jump out of the way FIRST or am I going to go "YO - watch where you're going!"? It's one, then the other if necessary. Because the first one usually works and is much less trouble.

 

[Motogiro]

Some times I just yell really loud, "Lady with a baby hot coffee coming through!" and everyone moves out of the way!

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Excellent points. I guess I was looking at it from more of a practical point of view... if I'm walking down the hall and some guy is about to run smack into me typing on his blackberry, am I really going to jump out of the way FIRST or am I going to go "YO - watch where you're going!"? It's one, then the other if necessary. Because the first one usually works and is much less trouble.

Great analogy. It's to get people's attention! Period. The louder the horn, the more effective it will be. Just like yelling. Hey or HEY!

And I also use it because I want people to know they most likely F'd up and I don't like any of these drivers to just continue on driving away without knowing what they just did.

A while back, some lady in an SUV started to make a bad lane change on me so I smiled and then hit my 140 decibel Stebel Air Horn. She was so freaking startled as she realized she just made a bad lane change that she jerked her steering wheel real hard back to the right and caused her tires to screech. She almost rolled the vehicle. LOL...

Now, I think most people would have either swerved to the left against the K barrier or possibly hit their brakes or throttled out without the possiblity that the driver ever knowing that they messed up, unless they also used their horn.

All these posts because some member decided to post up saying that the Horn is absolutely useless. This is a public forum, and sometimes there is very bad advise given and some of us have to respond and correct it. Just because somebody may find it useless and don't know how to use it doesn't mean it's worthless. It's there for a reason. Learn how to use it before the fact, not after it! Yes, we cannot rely on our horn all the time, I will agree to that so you better be able to rely on your physical skills as well. But relying soley on your physical skills first rather than your mental skills is absolutley the wrong way to go about riding a motorcycle.

 

[Motogiro]

Great analogy. It's to get people's attention! Period. The louder the horn, the more effective it will be. Just like yelling. Hey or HEY!

And I also use it because I want people to know they most likely F'd up and I don't like any of these drivers to just continue on driving away without knowing what they just did.

A while back, some lady in an SUV started to make a bad lane change on me so I smiled and then hit my 140 decibel Stebel Air Horn. She was so freaking startled as she realized she just made a bad lane change that she jerked her steering wheel real hard back to the right and caused her tires to screech. She almost rolled the vehicle. LOL...

Now, I think most people would have either swerved to the left against the K barrier or possibly hit their brakes or throttled out without the possiblity that the driver ever knowing that they messed up, unless they also used their horn.

All these posts because some member decided to post up saying that the Horn is absolutely useless. This is a public forum, and sometimes there is very bad advise given and some of us have to respond and correct it. Just because somebody may find it useless and don't know how to use it doesn't mean it's worthless. It's there for a reason. Learn how to use it before the fact, not after it! Yes, we cannot rely on our horn all the time, I will agree to that so you better be able to rely on your physical skills as well. But relying soley on your physical skills first rather than your mental skills is absolutley the wrong way to go about riding a motorcycle.

I agree. There are also issues with what we teach, who and when. I believe there is miscommunication in this area on this thread. The horn issue is not at the time an evasion is needed. It's before that happens with the thought, the rider is alert and aware of the possibility of a mishap with another vehicle and uses the horn as a precursor to a possible event. I have to personally admit I rarely use my horn because when I'm riding I'm trying to be ahead tactically of the entire picture. When I'm in a tough spot, it's usually very instant and I'm focused on no collision. It's either I wasn't where I mentally should be as a rider or something I've never experienced. If someone is going to back into me and I have no where to go, All I have is my horn to try and make the other vehicle aware. But in the open it's a different story. I have the option of paying attention and trying to not to become part of a situation.
My horn is so weak, when I use it it sound like a bee got in my helmet.
When ever Kenny honks that Stebel he scares the crap out off me! :rof:

Again.....:hijack:

 

[tjhess74]

I believe there is miscommunication in this area on this thread...

...The horn issue is not at the time an evasion is needed. It's before that happens with the thought, the rider is alert and aware of the possibility of a mishap with another vehicle and uses the horn as a precursor to a possible event.

yes...and this is EXACTLY what i was trying to get across. active infringement, not preplanned defensive riding. the horn IS useless for the former, very valuable for the latter.

the guy in the hallway example is preplanned defensive...you see him coming. a better example is you walk down a hallway, and suddenly someone darts out from a connecting room without looking. you can yell 'hey' all you want, but if you dont jump out of the way, youre gonna bump heads.

so, instead of taking my 'horn is useless' comment out of context, which some have, understand it will not stop a car, which it wont. its not bad advice, its the law of physics. implying that you dont need to evade cause your horn will stop a car from getting near you IS bad advice.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

yes...and this is EXACTLY what i was trying to get across. active infringement, not preplanned defensive riding. the horn IS useless for the former, very valuable for the latter.

the guy in the hallway example is preplanned defensive...you see him coming. a better example is you walk down a hallway, and suddenly someone darts out from a connecting room without looking. you can yell 'hey' all you want, but if you dont jump out of the way, youre gonna bump heads.

so, instead of taking my 'horn is useless' comment out of context, which some have, understand it will not stop a car, which it wont. its not bad advice, its the law of physics. implying that you dont need to evade cause your horn will stop a car from getting near you IS bad advice.

You have given a great example here, but you are failing to realize that riding a motorcycle is all about preplanned defensive as you call it, which requires using your mental skills first.

You never want to rely on your physical skills first, you should rely on your mental skills to know where and what to look for first so that you never put yourself in a dangerous position. That means, you may have to cover the brakes, cover your horn, etc. But of course, you can also slow down, adjust your position, so that it never gets to that point.

"suddenly someone darts out from a connecting room without looking" As a rider, you should know where and what to look for so that this never happens. This is your mental skills kicking in. So you made a mental error and overlooked what you should have seen, now you have to rely on your physical skills, now in this case the horn will not stop any moving mass as it's too late. Hope your physical skill is good enough to get you out of that situation.

If your physical skills fail, what do you have left? Tjhess74, do you know the answer to this very simple question?

 

[novaks47]

Look at what this thread has become!! Some good insight at least!

Should rename this thread "The Great Horn Debate : 2011".