Hypermotard 1098!!!

[Wavex]

That looks badass. I like it.

And with this quote


I'm guessing all the HD/Buell vtwin aircooled fanboyism is over?

lol fanboyism? :Flip:

Some people had joked about the XB12 engine and I simply provided performance numbers comparing the FZ6 engine to the Buell's...


here, between the Ducs, it's different because the numbers indeed favor the liquid cooled :BLAA:

 

[Wolfman]

I love it, think it's awesome, admire the frog's work....and it clearly sends a message to Ducati about what they shoulfd of done when making the Hyper-Motard! I bet it's an absolute weapon!

Very very cool!

I think the Motard looks better than the 1098 anyway....who needs all that plastic to break!

:rockon:

 

[Discofrank]

badass and i want one

**** the streetfighter

 

[Hellgate]

here, between the Ducs, it's different because the numbers indeed favor the liquid cooled :BLAA:

Kinda like with Buells too, huh?

 

[Gilo-FZ6]

and you wouldn't see the front while riding anyway

Not many people would!! maybe a brief flash in the mirrors :rockon:

 

[Wavex]

Kinda like with Buells too, huh?

well you tell me:

Buell ====== FZ6 (per respective OEM website specifications)

103HP ==== 95HP
84ft/lb ==== 47ft/lb
65mpg ==== 40mpg
Self Adjusting Valves ==== Valve adjustment @ 24k miles

So based on numbers, which one would you choose? :thumbup:

 

[Hellgate]

well you tell me:

Buell ====== FZ6 (per respective OEM website specifications)

103HP ==== 95HP
84ft/lb ==== 47ft/lb
65mpg ==== 40mpg
Self Adjusting Valves ==== Valve adjustment @ 24k miles

So based on numbers, which one would you choose? :thumbup:

No, no, no...

1125: 146 hp, liquid cooled

XB: 103 hp, air cooled

 

[Wavex]

oh LOL... I didn't know you were comparing your bike now... no contest there, although I am sure I beat your mileage, I have more torque than you (about the same #), no valve adjustments, and who needs 150HP on the streets?

But again, all I was doing was asking ppl why they were making jokes about the HD air cooled engine when it performs better than the engine in their own bike... no-one provided an answer.

 

[krid80]

the service manager where I work has a 2005 Victory Vegas and he ran off and left one of our salesmen on a 2009 XB12S like it was sitting still. And, yes, they were intentionally racing. Granted, when it comes to corners, the Buell is gonna be better than both the Victory, the FZ6, and lots of other bikes, but when comparing a FZ6 to a pushrod Buell, they are so closely matched it is hard to say. Likely will come down to the rider.

Oh, and have you already forgotten that the FZ6 has 98hp stock?

Either way, a belt loses more power than a chain. A chain primary loses more power than a gear primary. A harley motor will not last like a Yamaha motor. Also, Brian Mcrary just checked his valves at 35k miles and they were still spot on. So valve adjustments are basically never needed on most FZ6's because most people will never get enough miles on the FZ to actually require one.

I pick the Yamaha.

 

[Speedygonzales]

That guy has waaaayyy to much money hahaha ... awsome project tho :thumbup:

 

[Motogiro]

Crazy Frenchmen..first long skinny bread, then stinky cheese now this...snail with that bike?

:rof: Hahaha!:rof: rof:

The 1100 Evo is an air cooled 30 year old design with 95HP compared to the 1098 liquid cooled 165HP monster. Just a small 70HP difference...




For some people, looks isn't everything I guess?

If you look carefully, the guy dropped his 1098 (one of the pic shows damage to the original tank) so I am guessing that he did not want to spend $5k in replacement OEM plastics and decided to transform the bike to his likings... who knows and who cares? He did an awesome job and I'd love to rock that HM down a canyon road!!!

I agree and really enjoy the energy and compassion people have with some of these builds and modifications. It's just awesome! and you can bet that thing is a Rocketard now...

 

[Wavex]

The intend of this thread wasn't to get back into that debate... but OK, I`ll sound defensive again...

the service manager where I work has a 2005 Victory Vegas and he ran off and left one of our salesmen on a 2009 XB12S like it was sitting still. And, yes, they were intentionally racing.

I've seen an XB12S beat a stretched turbo_ed Busa on a drag strip... does that mean the XB12 is faster than the Busa? nope.... I am just comparing spec numbers, not whether your Service Mgr is better at taking off on his 645lb pig compared to your Salesman

Granted, when it comes to corners, the Buell is gonna be better than both the Victory, the FZ6, and lots of other bikes, but when comparing a FZ6 to a pushrod Buell, they are so closely matched it is hard to say. Likely will come down to the rider.

HP is closely matched, but torque is almost double on the Buell... and torque is what moves you forward, not HP

Oh, and have you already forgotten that the FZ6 has 98hp stock?

Sorry... the Yamaha site doesn't show HP, so I picked an optimistic 95HP (real numbers from forum members are usually closer to 90HP on a stock FZ).

Either way, a belt loses more power than a chain. A chain primary loses more power than a gear primary. A harley motor will not last like a Yamaha motor. Also, Brian Mcrary just checked his valves at 35k miles and they were still spot on. So valve adjustments are basically never needed on most FZ6's because most people will never get enough miles on the FZ to actually require one.

I pick the Yamaha.

1) not sure why you're talking about belt vs chain here since HP & torque numbers are measured at the wheel anyway...

2) and anyway, today's belts don't "loose more power than chains"... not sure where you got that info from... today's belts are simply better than chains unless you change your gearing on a regular basis (like on a track bike). They are lighter, require NO maintenance, no adjustment, and there's no chain slack issues... The belt on my Buell has a lifetime warranty from GoodYear.

3) The HD Evo 1200 engine on which the Buell Thunderstorm engine is based on has excellent reliability numbers... it was designed in 1984 and is still widely used because of its excellent reputation. Some say that it's the engine which saved HD from bankruptcy back in the 80s (too bad! lol)... Anyway, I agree that Yamaha's overall reliability is better than HD/Buell though... especially a few years ago, the gap was big...

4) Whether you had to adjust the valves or not is irrelevant... you still have to check them or have them checked, and the price is the same whether adjustments are necessary or not is it not? (adjusting is easy, it's the whole process of getting to the valves that's expensive). Not sure how you can make the statement that most ppl will never reach 24k miles on their FZ6....

5) To me, the main difference between the FZ and the Buell engines is the actual feel when riding... the I4 loves rpms, while the Buell pulls from anywhere... for the street I prefer the twin, but to each their own and I completely respect ppl who prefer a smooth I4 on the streets too, it's personal preference at this point :thumbup:

Again, I was never trying to say that the FZ6 engine sucks... I love that bike/engine, I was merely challenging people who thought the Buell engine is a POS, by taking a closer look at actual numbers, and comparing them to what they know (the FZ6 engine)... that's all.

 

[urbanj]

Wow look what I started
I was just poking fun at Wavex because of this exact issue that is happening in this thread. It's not really an issue Both engines have their advantages and disadvantages and people will like or dislike them.

Now I have to state a case not picking on any one engine. figures are estimated

Yes torque gets you moving. Horsepower on the other hand is the measurement of getting work done and is dependant on RPM's and RPM's only. So a 100 hp I4 and a 100hp Vtwin will get the same amount of work done. With less torque the I4 must rev higher to achieve the same numbers and the Vtwin will then rev lower.

Comparing a 1200cc vtwin and a 600cc I4 is like comparing apples to oranges. Of course the vtwin will generate more torque because is was designed to produce it. bigger bore, bigger stroke etc. But at 1200cc 100hp means that it's not as effective. Take the new R1 at 1000cc, which produces 80 lbs ft of torque as well but because it revs so high and is efficent in those rpms, it also gets much more work done (180hp)

So really it depends on what you like, that "feeling" the torque gives you or the actual "performance" HP does. For the street, 100% agree with you that a vtwin will feel great. But it will also only feel great to someone that likes that feeling. If you like high revving horsepower you wont like the low end low rpm grunt that runs out of steam.

 

[krid80]

I've seen an XB12S beat a stretched turbo_ed Busa on a drag strip... does that mean the XB12 is faster than the Busa? nope.... I am just comparing spec numbers, not whether your Service Mgr is better at taking off on his 645lb pig compared to your Salesman

Well..... I did leave out that the Victory makes 130rwhp (it is quite built)

HP is closely matched, but torque is almost double on the Buell... and torque is what moves you forward, not HP

not exactly true. but urbanj said it best so I'll leave it at that.

Sorry... the Yamaha site doesn't show HP, so I picked an optimistic 95HP (real numbers from forum members are usually closer to 90HP on a stock FZ).



1) not sure why you're talking about belt vs chain here since HP & torque numbers are measured at the wheel anyway...

Nope! Manufacturers do not measure horsepower or torque at the wheel. They measure it on an engine dyno stand using an engine brake. All manufacturer horsepower ratings are before any parasitic driveline loss. Please don't tell me you believe that if you put your bike on a chassis dyno, you would see 104hp and 84ft/lb of torque. It just won't happen. I would guess you will put the same wheel hp as an FZ6.

2) and anyway, today's belts don't "loose more power than chains"... not sure where you got that info from... today's belts are simply better than chains unless you change your gearing on a regular basis (like on a track bike). They are lighter, require NO maintenance, no adjustment, and there's no chain slack issues... The belt on my Buell has a lifetime warranty from GoodYear.

Belts and chains are probably the same so I'll retract that part of the statement, however, a chain primary is not a good thing.

3) The HD Evo 1200 engine on which the Buell Thunderstorm engine is based on has excellent reliability numbers... it was designed in 1984 and is still widely used because of its excellent reputation. Some say that it's the engine which saved HD from bankruptcy back in the 80s (too bad! lol)... Anyway, I agree that Yamaha's overall reliability is better than HD/Buell though... especially a few years ago, the gap was big...

I'll also agree here! Buell isn't nearly as bad as it was but is still lightyears behind the Japanese in build quality and reliabilty. Also, of all the HD pushrod engines, the Thunderstorm is the best. If I were to buy one, I'd take the 984cc's shorter stroke.

4) Whether you had to adjust the valves or not is irrelevant... you still have to check them or have them checked, and the price is the same whether adjustments are necessary or not is it not? (adjusting is easy, it's the whole process of getting to the valves that's expensive). Not sure how you can make the statement that most ppl will never reach 24k miles on their FZ6....

Well, this is a case of real world vs. internet world. This site is an enthusiast web site which samples a very small percentage of actual FZ6 owners. I work in a Yamaha Service Department and see lots and lots of bikes come through every year. I have seen exactly 2 FZ6's with more than 24,000 miles on them.

5) To me, the main difference between the FZ and the Buell engines is the actual feel when riding... the I4 loves rpms, while the Buell pulls from anywhere... for the street I prefer the twin, but to each their own and I completely respect ppl who prefer a smooth I4 on the streets too, it's personal preference at this point :thumbup:

Agreed, and I'm not saying that the Buells aren't fun! I came inches from buying a Ulysses a couple years ago (just before I bought the FZ6). I have ridden every Buell XB and 1125 and they are a really fun bike. I just wouldn't want to have to live every day with one. It is truly, as you states, a personal preference. I respect yours.

Again, I was never trying to say that the FZ6 engine sucks... I love that bike/engine, I was merely challenging people who thought the Buell engine is a POS, by taking a closer look at actual numbers, and comparing them to what they know (the FZ6 engine)... that's all.

I don't think they are a POS (anymore) and if I had more money than I could spend, I'd own a 1125CR. But I don't and don't want any of the headaches that I've heard from badweatherbikers.com etc to occur in my care.

For you, as quickly as you trade (or otherwise dispose of) motorcycles, I doubt you'll have trouble with your Buell. I want a bike I feel can ride to 100,000 miles without a hiccup. A Buell likely could, but a Yamaha seems better suited for that job.

Fair enough?

edit: checking valves is a lot easier than adjusting them. To check them, you only have to remove the cam cover. To adjust them you have to remove the cams after measuring and pulling the buckets and measuring and replacing the shims (hence the name Shim and bucket). They do suck, but the advantage is, even though they do need adjusted occasionally, they hold their adjustment for a long long time.

 

[Wavex]

Wow look what I started
I was just poking fun at Wavex because of this exact issue that is happening in this thread. It's not really an issue Both engines have their advantages and disadvantages and people will like or dislike them.

Yes, it is all your fault :BLAA:

Yes torque gets you moving. Horsepower on the other hand is the measurement of getting work done and is dependant on RPM's and RPM's only.

No. HP is not only dependent on RPM only...

Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252

Comparing a 1200cc vtwin and a 600cc I4 is like comparing apples to oranges. Of course the vtwin will generate more torque because is was designed to produce it. bigger bore, bigger stroke etc. But at 1200cc 100hp means that it's not as effective. Take the new R1 at 1000cc, which produces 80 lbs ft of torque as well but because it revs so high and is efficent in those rpms, it also gets much more work done (180hp)

I don't agree that it's like comparing apples to oranges... they're both engines that were designed to make a motorcycle move forward, and as such, comparing real life numbers (what I experience riding my Buell, compared to what you experience riding your FZ) makes sense.

Based on the equation above, I am not sure either how you concluded that
1200cc = 100HP-84ft/lb
is less "effective" (efficient?) than
600cc = 100HP-46ft/lb

The Buell may be a 1200cc, but with about the same mileage numbers as the 600cc, twice the torque and more HP, where is the inefficiency in real life?

OK I am sure that the more recent state-of-the-art race R6 engine (which is used in the FZ) is more efficient in terms of design characteristics (heat dissipation, weight, size etc...) compared to the 25 year old HD engine, but I am not sure why anyone would care if real life numbers still favor the old POS... mileage and torque are about the only tangible things a rider can experience in real life when it pertains to the engine in his motorcycle... Everything else is marketing imo...

So really it depends on what you like, that "feeling" the torque gives you or the actual "performance" HP does.

Torque is what you FEEL when you ride (it's what a dyno measures), HP is just a number on a piece of paper (calculated using the torque measurement and the formula above)...

I choose torque

For the street, 100% agree with you that a vtwin will feel great. But it will also only feel great to someone that likes that feeling. If you like high revving horsepower you wont like the low end low rpm grunt that runs out of steam.

True.

FZ6 = from 0 to 8k rpms = no "humph" and then it suddenly launches... which means you have to wait and wait until you get all the way up there in the tach to have fun, and by then you're usually above the speed limit. Right? (I know, I used to have the problem, which is why I had changed the gearing on my FZ and then ended up choosing a twin).

Buell = humph everywhere, with access to at least 80% of the max torque (84ft/lb) across all gears/rpms. In other words I have access to a min of 67ft.lb at all times (FZ6 max torque = 45ft/lb @ 10k rpms). That's called usable power for the streets...
Yep, my twin will indeed run out of steam before the FZ, but that's well into the triple digit speeds, which I simply don't use on the streets.


The track is a different story all together...

:thumbup:

 

[Wavex]

Please don't tell me you believe that if you put your bike on a chassis dyno, you would see 104hp and 84ft/lb of torque. It just won't happen. I would guess you will put the same wheel hp as an FZ6.

hmmm ok... want me to post a dyno chart? Stock XB => 103HP, 83ft/lb actual measurement. I have multiple ones if you want to see them.

I'll also agree here! Buell isn't nearly as bad as it was but is still lightyears behind the Japanese in build quality and reliabilty.

Light years? I don't think so...

I've had more issues in 10k miles with my FZ (loose sub-frame, shot steering head bearings, buzz suddenly appearing at 7k rpms after 5k miles...), than in 10k miles with my Buell (no issues so far touch some wood). Doesn't mean much I know

Well, this is a case of real world vs. internet world. This site is an enthusiast web site which samples a very small percentage of actual FZ6 owners. I work in a Yamaha Service Department and see lots and lots of bikes come through every year. I have seen exactly 2 FZ6's with more than 24,000 miles on them.

How many FZ6 owners do their regular maintenance with you guys? 3? 4?

For you, as quickly as you trade (or otherwise dispose of) motorcycles, I doubt you'll have trouble with your Buell. I want a bike I feel can ride to 100,000 miles without a hiccup. A Buell likely could, but a Yamaha seems better suited for that job.

I guess... there are multiple XB12 riders with over 100k miles on badwebs... don't remember seeing any FZ6 owner with that many miles

edit: checking valves is a lot easier than adjusting them. To check them, you only have to remove the gas tank, air box, and battle to get the the cam cover OFF. To adjust them you have to remove the cams after measuring and pulling the buckets and measuring and replacing the shims (hence the name Shim and bucket). They do suck, but the advantage is, even though they do need adjusted occasionally, they hold their adjustment for a long long time.

Fixed it for you
Once you're inside the crankcase things are fairly easy...

Anyway, I'd pick self adjusting valves over non-self-adjusting valves if I had the choice... that's the only point I was trying to make.

 

[krid80]

hmmm ok... want me to post a dyno chart? Stock XB => 103HP, 83ft/lb actual measurement. I have multiple ones if you want to see them.




Light years? I don't think so...

I've had more issues in 10k miles with my FZ (loose sub-frame, shot steering head bearings, buzz suddenly appearing at 7k rpms after 5k miles...), than in 10k miles with my Buell (no issues so far touch some wood). Doesn't mean much I know



How many FZ6 owners do their regular maintenance with you guys? 3? 4?



I guess... there are multiple XB12 riders with over 100k miles on badwebs... don't remember seeing any FZ6 owner with that many miles




Fixed it for you
Once you're inside the crankcase things are fairly easy...

Anyway, I'd pick self adjusting valves over non-self-adjusting valves if I had the choice... that's the only point I was trying to make.

We sell prepaid maintenance on most of our sportbikes so we actually service about 60-75% of the bikes we sell. We also offer a 10 year unlimited mile powertrain warranty for free if you buy any new road bike and maintain it with us. So we probably have 15-20 FZ6's that are currently being maintained at our shop. Only two ever got their valves checked at 24k miles. We have had to adjust two sportbike valves in the three years I have worked there. One R6 and one KTM Superduke 990 (16k miles).

Alright, nothing I can say is ever going to make a difference to you. So tonight the role of France will be played by Dirk Hicks. "I surrender!" Can we get back to discussing the Ducati now?

 

[Wavex]

lol I think we agree: just ride the damn thing!!!!

I just spend 30min reading and trying to really grasp and understand this: Yet another guide to Torque versus Horsepower versus Acceleration

Every time I think I completely understand it, I turn around and try to make sense of it in my head, so I can explain it to someone else, and that's when I realize I don't really fully get it... these concepts are tough ones to fully grasp...

Well that was fun anyway! TIME TO START THE WKD now!

 

[krid80]

lol I think we agree: just ride the damn thing!!!!

I just spend 30min reading and trying to really grasp and understand this: Yet another guide to Torque versus Horsepower versus Acceleration

Every time I think I completely understand it, I turn around and try to make sense of it in my head, so I can explain it to someone else, and that's when I realize I don't really fully get it... these concepts are tough ones to fully grasp...

Well that was fun anyway! TIME TO START THE WKD now!

I agree that we do agree LOL. It (horsepower vs torque) is a ridiculous concept to try to wrap your head around. I was thinking just now, the Yamaha R1 has roughly the same torque as your Buell but a massive amount of horsepower difference. Yet it is sooooo much faster accelerating than a 1200 Buell. They are also both in the 400lb range. This has to rule in favor of horsepower at minimum making some difference.

Thoughts?
I am off to read your link!

 

[Wavex]

I agree that we do agree LOL. It (horsepower vs torque) is a ridiculous concept to try to wrap your head around. I was thinking just now, the Yamaha R1 has roughly the same torque as your Buell but a massive amount of horsepower difference. Yet it is sooooo much faster accelerating than a 1200 Buell. They are also both in the 400lb range. This has to rule in favor of horsepower at minimum making some difference.

Thoughts?
I am off to read your link!

I'll bet you I can keep up with an R1 off the line until 60-70mph... the main difference is that when my bike starts to die off at 110mph (top speed of around 135-140) the R1 is just getting started...