Iraq results

[abraxas]

Ok, this is from http://www.juancole.com/2009/03/cheneys-mission-accomplished.html Juan Cole, a widely respected middle eastern scholar.

Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Cheney's Mission Accomplished

Dick Cheney: "I guess my general sense of where we are with respect to Iraq and at the end of now, what, nearly six years, is that we've accomplished nearly everything we set out to do...."

What has Dick Cheney really accomplished in Iraq?

An estimated 4 million Iraqis, out of 27 million, have been displaced from their homes, that is, made homeless. Some 2.7 million are internally displaced inside Iraq. A couple hundred thousand are cooling their heels in Jordan. And perhaps a million are quickly running out of money and often living in squalid conditions in Syria. Cheney's war has left about 15% of Iraqis homeless inside the country or abroad. That would be like 45 million American thrown out of their homes.

[snip.../snip]

$32 billion were wasted on Iraq reconstruction, and most of it cannot even be traced. I repeat, Cheney gave away $32 bn. to anonymous cronies in such a way that we can't even be sure who stole it, exactly. And you are angry at AIG about $400 mn. in bonuses! We are talking about $32 billion given out in brown paper bags.

[snip.../snip]

Cheney avoids mentioning all the human suffering he has caused, on a cosmic scale, and focuses on procedural matters like elections (which he confuses with democracy-- given 2000 in this country, you can understand why). Or he lies, as when he says that Iran's influence in Iraq has been blocked. Another lie is that there was that the US was fighting "al-Qaeda" in Iraq as opposed to just Iraqis. He and Bush even claim that they made Iraqi womens' lives better.

The real question is whether anyone will have the gumption to put Cheney on trial for treason and crimes against humanity.

_______________________________________________________

Does anyone argue the facts of this?

And how on earth can anything here be considered successful? Or indeed accomplished? What was their mission? Since iraq is a failed state, it COULD NOT have been to create a self sufficient state? Which is (kinda) what the end goal was supposed to be?

 

[wrightme43]

That is a bunch of lies.

 

[mstewar1]

I don't know that I'd dismiss the info as a bunch of lies.

The bit about the misappropriation of funds -- the no-bid contracts awarded to haliburton, kaki, blackwater, titan, and so on -- this stuff all seems like blatant war-time profiteering to me.

And the whole "mission accomplished" nonsense that Bush tried to pull off. Please.

I'm not saying that some good things may have or may eventually come from this fiasco. Nor am I commenting on the sacrifices and just general hard work of the troops. I think that the troops have managed to really adapt to the work on the ground, working with populations to try and restore some semblance of order and civility. They really do deserve every bit of credit for their service.

No, I'm saying that I think the reasons for dragging us into this "war" were not wholly accurate nor honest. I tend to think that history will not judge the Bush/Cheney years well.

 

[abraxas]

That is a bunch of lies.

What part of?

The iraqi state of affairs?
The financial side?
The cheney bush bits?

all?

 

[Crotalus]

Haliburton: How many other companys in existance can do what they do? One. A small french firm specializes in national level country reconstructions.

Much of the 'lost' money was never lost. Companys were paid for work, but refused to finish projects after terrorist attacks. The terrorists loved attacking these targets because they don't want us to succeed in rebuilding that nation. Other monies are given to the Iraqi government, which is more than a little corrupt and disappears. But we have little choice but to work with their leaders. Remember, they are elected officials and WE cannot remove them, that is for the Iraqi citizens and law enforcement.

The numbers on homlessness seem a little high, but I'm not sure. Why would they be displaced in the first place? We didn't kick anyone out of their homes. Most left their homes because of sectarian violence. That is Shi Muslims and Sunni killing each other, which we have tried to stop (to some success).

Also, where's the mention of the fact that Saddam killed over 100,000 people each year of his rule?? Did you not see the pictures of the Kurds he hit with chemical weapons, just to test the effectiveness of said weapons. I guess it is true they weren't homeless after the attack....they were graveless.

How is it anyone proposes we make this country a paradise? How can we eliminate murder, homelessness, and joblessness? If you have the answer tell me and I'll start with America first.

 

[mstewar1]

Haliburton: How many other companys in existance can do what they do? One. A small french firm specializes in national level country reconstructions.

I get the alleged "intent" of the "privatization" movement. The argument that's given is that private companies can do things better and cheaper than the government can. But this notion doesn't always seem to work out in reality. Without spinning off into some conspiracy theory weirdness, we've seen a rather sizable explosion in the "prison industry" (I know, not really or fully related to this thread or discussion, but it is tangentially) and "military contractors." Both of these industries seem to enjoy a fair amount of exclusive, no-bid contract awards from the government. And yet if one looks at the efficiency and quality of the services that they supplanted, we don't always seem to be getting value for the money.

Disclaimer: I wouldn't dare cite a documentary as a "truthful" representation of a situation or scenario. I fully understand that any documentarian must and will tell their story from a particular point of view, it's necessary and inevitable. That said, in the film, Iraq for Sale, there were plenty of instances where the film makers point to inefficiencies or just plain stupid actions on the part of the contractors and the government in how sub-contracted jobs were handed over and executed.

My point: The military had the capability to do the work that the contractors are being paid handsomely to do. Ok, so the Corp of Engineers f'd up the levees around New Orleans...um yeah. I'm not convinced that the contractors are doing it any better -- from an efficiency and/or cost-savings perspective -- than the military might.

Much of the 'lost' money was never lost. Companys were paid for work, but refused to finish projects after terrorist attacks. The terrorists loved attacking these targets because they don't want us to succeed in rebuilding that nation. Other monies are given to the Iraqi government, which is more than a little corrupt and disappears. But we have little choice but to work with their leaders. Remember, they are elected officials and WE cannot remove them, that is for the Iraqi citizens and law enforcement.

I don't think that anyone said money was "lost" and I'm not trying to be snarky on this point. At least I said "misappropriated." I think that the government is culpable as regards granting no-bid contracts and not working to hold the contractors accountable for the charges they submit. It's like the old $400 toilet seat. Really, it costs that much..?

The numbers on homlessness seem a little high, but I'm not sure. Why would they be displaced in the first place? We didn't kick anyone out of their homes. Most left their homes because of sectarian violence. That is Shi Muslims and Sunni killing each other, which we have tried to stop (to some success).

Also, where's the mention of the fact that Saddam killed over 100,000 people each year of his rule?? Did you not see the pictures of the Kurds he hit with chemical weapons, just to test the effectiveness of said weapons. I guess it is true they weren't homeless after the attack....they were graveless.

We shouldn't have been there in the first place is my only real point in this regard. Iraq was not involved in any attack on the U.S. There was no connection between that country and anything that occurred in the U.S. Yeah, there had been the rather contentious relationship between the IAEA and Iraq regarding weapons inspectors but still, I find it really odd that the U.S. bags on the U.N. and related international institutions when it is convenient to do so and then turns around and says it's acting on behalf o the international community, again, when it's convenient. What right did we have to breach the borders of another sovereign nation? The whole WMD thing was a farce.

Yeah, Saddam was a bad guy. There are bad guys in power all over the world, what about Robert Mugabe? He's doing horrible things to his country, running it into the ground (yes, I know he's not gassing his people, but does it have to come to that for action to result?). Oh but wait, that's just an African nation, there's no oil there, there's no strategic interest, so we'll leave him alone.

How is it anyone proposes we make this country a paradise? How can we eliminate murder, homelessness, and joblessness? If you have the answer tell me and I'll start with America first.

Once again, not trying to be snarky, just conversing here. But I don't think anyone suggested that the goal of anyone was to make a paradise out of the place. We went into the place belligerently, like some fifteen year old with a perpetual hard-on wielding some pretty amazing weapons, we wrecked the place pretty good. Yeah, they were living in shacks to begin with but I don't think we helped the situation much.

I don't have the solution. As I said, I think that the troops have done a remarkable job of stepping up to address the infrastructure-related issues of the country. But I don't think that they should be doing that work now. Now the Iraqi government should be seeking out contractors to do the work. We, the U.S., shouldn't be in there just propping up the place and doing all of the work. I know the argument that if we just leave that it'll fall into utter chaos. Again, I don't have the answers to the problem. But the pisser to me is that we're stuck having to try and fix this mess that we just should not have gotten into in the first place.

 

[FZSex]

Ok, this is from http://www.juancole.com/2009/03/cheneys-mission-accomplished.html Juan Cole, a widely respected middle eastern scholar.

Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Cheney's Mission Accomplished

Dick Cheney: "I guess my general sense of where we are with respect to Iraq and at the end of now, what, nearly six years, is that we've accomplished nearly everything we set out to do...."

What has Dick Cheney really accomplished in Iraq?

An estimated 4 million Iraqis, out of 27 million, have been displaced from their homes, that is, made homeless. Some 2.7 million are internally displaced inside Iraq. A couple hundred thousand are cooling their heels in Jordan. And perhaps a million are quickly running out of money and often living in squalid conditions in Syria. Cheney's war has left about 15% of Iraqis homeless inside the country or abroad. That would be like 45 million American thrown out of their homes.

[snip.../snip]

$32 billion were wasted on Iraq reconstruction, and most of it cannot even be traced. I repeat, Cheney gave away $32 bn. to anonymous cronies in such a way that we can't even be sure who stole it, exactly. And you are angry at AIG about $400 mn. in bonuses! We are talking about $32 billion given out in brown paper bags.

[snip.../snip]

Cheney avoids mentioning all the human suffering he has caused, on a cosmic scale, and focuses on procedural matters like elections (which he confuses with democracy-- given 2000 in this country, you can understand why). Or he lies, as when he says that Iran's influence in Iraq has been blocked. Another lie is that there was that the US was fighting "al-Qaeda" in Iraq as opposed to just Iraqis. He and Bush even claim that they made Iraqi womens' lives better.

The real question is whether anyone will have the gumption to put Cheney on trial for treason and crimes against humanity.

_______________________________________________________

Does anyone argue the facts of this?

And how on earth can anything here be considered successful? Or indeed accomplished? What was their mission? Since iraq is a failed state, it COULD NOT have been to create a self sufficient state? Which is (kinda) what the end goal was supposed to be?

Maybe one day we'll help out the Earth and the fellow human race like the shining star that is South Africa.

 

[dako81]

Lets skip all of the nonsense and get to the point.

As long as Americans keep allowing their "leaders" to spend OUR money (stolen from us at gunpoint) on THEIR, not OUR, THEIR little projects, money will be wasted, little to nothing will be accomplished, and people will die, be injured, move, get pissed off, and be stolen from. This is with war, roads, water, etc. etc. etc. Everything.

It doesn't matter what their names are, they're all on the same team. They all do the same things and support each other in every step along the way. It is not democrat vs. republican. D vs. R is just a battle for who gets to spend the most money, when there is a threat to their legitimacy, they come together and operate in a manner to perpetuate themselves, their positions, and the system they have created by which they make everyone play by.

So, start focusing on reducing the size and power of the government institution instead of complaining about people that get into positions in the institution that allow them to do things, because whoever gets in there is going to just keep screwing us over. Because they have the legitimacy to do so. If they're that high up in the heiarchy, they've been corrupted by the power, and should not be trusted with it. Nobody should be trusted with it. People should take care of themselves.

 

[jazzpaintball]

I am sorry, but i have to put this out there....

Everyone's story is right, to a degree. People are poor, some are homeless, and the military was involved to various reasons that people do not agree with.

All i can give is first hand experience i have had with actual citizens of Iraq. It is true love hate relationship. When we came in (lets skip on the schematics on why we came), it was to ultimately take out a leader that has done much wrong. In "civilized" ideology, killing nearly a half a million people though the use of a private police organization is wrong. Seeing this go on, in the "civilized" persons' mind, creates an idea of instability. A man that has already tried to take possession of another nation, that may have the means to attack with deadly force, may do so against the country that stopped him. Every American on the day that the towers fell were all wondering what was going to happen next.

Although this idea of taking out a leader that caused so much agony for so many people was great, didn't help out much. The Muslim religion is based upon mostly the same principals. Although the two major factions, the Shi'ites and the Sunnis only have one main difference, the choice of a leader. One wants the most suitable guy for a leader, while the other wants the closest blood lineage to Muhammad himself. This strife is the same as the ideas of France and America in the 17th and 18th centuries, The idea of a ruler of blood, or a ruler of ability. But most of the world does not understand just how much religion plays into this culture. There is literally a Mosque every 1000 feet, and they use loud speakers to put out prayers 5 times a day. I will hear 4 different prayers at the same time 5 times a day. The few christian Iraqis there are are literally being killed for being christian (especially in Mosul). How far would you go for religion, church every sunday, tithe, or even fast for a few days. Muslims here will actually morn the death of a leader that died nearly 1700 years ago by literally cutting themselves. They take a 15 inch knife, a short sword really, and cut from the back of there neck upwards around and down to the bridge of their noses to "morn" the death of this leader 1700 years dead.

this idea of winning or loosing is not here. It was to help out the people. Yea, some people came out worse, but the overall society got better. I have talked to people and they are thankful for they are able to sell goods without the worry of someone taxing them 80% for selling it, or that they can now work in a decently safe place to provide for their family. These thanks are from people who make roughly $20 US a day.

I am truly sick of people complaining that "we" (yet they never let the idea of themselves joining the military though their mind) are over here for oil, or for the exploitation of a culture, or to further the prospects of capitalism. Sure, there may just be a little reason of why the military is over here of each one of the reasons stated above, but not for any one such cause.

as for the massive payment, its all summed up in a few short words: to save lives. We spend money to use better equiptment and better technologies to bring soldiers back home to their families. I am sure that you think that it was stupid to give every soldier body armor, or high grade medical kits, or non-hackable radio systems, or frequency jammers to stop IED (improvised explosive devices) from going off. HOW DARE THEY!!!!!! THEY SHOULD KEEP IN CHEAP, LIKE GOOD OLD RUSSIA. "FIRST ONE GETS A RIFLE, SECOND ONE GETS A MAGAZINE..."

The minds of some people can be so narrow.....

 

[dako81]

..... someone taxing them 80% for selling it, ....

...I am truly sick of people complaining that "we" (yet they never let the idea of themselves joining the military though their mind) ...

... I am sure that you think that it was stupid to give every soldier body armor, or high grade medical kits..

....The minds of some people can be so narrow.....

1) Sounds just like the direction we're headed in.

2) What does joining the military have to do with it? Let me ask you a question: What will you do when the politicians tell you to point the gun at your family?

3) That's not right to say. Nobody wants to see soldiers go into legitimate battle to actually defend the country unprepared.

4) Yes. I completely agree with you.

Here's another question:
Would you be willing to put me in a jail cell for refusing to finance these politicians "wars"?

If this is such an important and good thing to do, why can't the politicians get people to give their money on their own, voluntarily, to support their causes?

 

[ArmyDocInTraining]

My point: The military had the capability to do the work that the contractors are being paid handsomely to do.

Oh really? I guess you know this from experience? :Flip:

 

[ArmyDocInTraining]

I was unaware there was an MOS for rebuilding a country. :spank:

 

[Cuba]

1) Sounds just like the direction we're headed in.

2) What does joining the military have to do with it? Let me ask you a question: What will you do when the politicians tell you to point the gun at your family?

3) That's not right to say. Nobody wants to see soldiers go into legitimate battle to actually defend the country unprepared.

4) Yes. I completely agree with you.

Here's another question:
Would you be willing to put me in a jail cell for refusing to finance these politicians "wars"?

If this is such an important and good thing to do, why can't the politicians get people to give their money on their own, voluntarily, to support their causes?

1.- I agree with you, our freedoms are being removed and we are being robbed by our government. Obama now wants to eliminate funds for the VA to pay for our vetrans healthcare so he can spend that money on his entitlement programs for welfare recipients. Time to dust off your Support Our Troops ribbons because we need them now more than ever.

2.- His point is that when a civilian says "we went over there" it could be perceived as insulting, YOU didn't, HE did. YOU sat around complaining about being at war, HE is dodging explosions.

3.- I hope what you meant to say was no one wants our soldiers dying from going into ANY conflict unprepared. Are you saying you'd like to see US soldiers die in combat if you have a personal philosophical issue with the reasons for going to war? You had better be careful with any witty response to that question.

4.- Yeah but not you, right?

The new administration is slashing the hell out of the defense budget while Russia and China have announced massive increases to their own. So I guess you get your wish.

 

[mstewar1]

Oh really? I guess you know this from experience? :Flip:

No, I don't have experience in any such regard. I am a veteran, if that's somehow part of the question or comment.

I'm not really sure why you're flipping me off. I was in no way disrespectful of anyone and wasn't and am not out to "argue." Take it easy sport.

Have there not been military building or engineering mos's, such as the seabee's of the Navy? I recall there being engineers on the post I was stationed on. And though I'm not entirely certain of what their relationship is to the active military (though I've seen that they do wear uniforms) what about the corp or engineers?

 

[Oscar54]

Without getting off on a bunch of tangents, here is my take.

The Iraq war was predicated on lies.

1) Hussein was a secular leader not a theocratic one, and therefore was the enemy of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.
2) Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11. But the Saudi's probably did.
3) Hussein did not have WMD. Hans Blix said so before the war and it turn out to be true.
4) There was no yellow cake for Hussein's nuke program, and a CIA agent was outed as revenge in an act of treason.
5) Hussein was not attacked to free his people from oppression. That was thrown out there after the occupation started and the previous arguments to justify the attack were proven false. Bush campaigned on not engaging in nation building (bashing Clinton for Bosnia) but fell back on it when his lies were exposed.

The bottom line is that the Iraq occupation was based on lies, resulted in thousands of American service personnel being killed and injured. Killed and displaced God knows how many innocent Iraqis. The lies were used to justify the shredding of our constitutional freedoms enumerated in the Bill of Rights and made America a torture nation just like the enemy we are supposedly fighting against. And to top it off, American Corporations made billions of dollars off of misery and death, and helped bankrupt the treasury in the process to the tune of a trillion dollars.

Bush and Cheney are lying war criminals and unfortunately they will probably get away with it and enjoy the rest of their despicable lives, while millions of innocents suffer or died because of them.

Thank God their retched administration is gone.

 

[dako81]

1.- I agree with you, our freedoms are being removed and we are being robbed by our government. Obama now wants to eliminate funds for the VA to pay for our vetrans healthcare so he can spend that money on his entitlement programs for welfare recipients. Time to dust off your Support Our Troops ribbons because we need them now more than ever.

2.- His point is that when a civilian says "we went over there" it could be perceived as insulting, YOU didn't, HE did. YOU sat around complaining about being at war, HE is dodging explosions.

3.- I hope what you meant to say was no one wants our soldiers dying from going into ANY conflict unprepared. Are you saying you'd like to see US soldiers die in combat if you have a personal philosophical issue with the reasons for going to war? You had better be careful with any witty response to that question.

4.- Yeah but not you, right?

The new administration is slashing the hell out of the defense budget while Russia and China have announced massive increases to their own. So I guess you get your wish.

1) yes, we both agree

2) I was talking more along the lines of trying to not speak collectively. When citizens say "we're at war" what they really should say is "the elected so called leaders of this country are at war". Where soldiers have volunteered to fight for them.

3) No. What I am saying is that the military should be used to protect our country, instead of acting as pawns in the politicians games. I don't want to see US soldiers die anywhere, many of them are my very close friends. I'm sorry I'm not a sick individual like you would believe me to be.

Also what I meant was I shouldn't have to pay for projects created for the military by the politicians. If they decide to have their military go around the world doing whatever they dictate to them, they should have to pay for it, not taxpayers. When was the last time war was legally declared? I'm interested to know.

4) I'm open to any viewpoint. Also, I find it interesting how unreceptive people are to the ideas of real freedom and liberty, as well as the idea of self ownership. The government has skewed these ideas on their face as crazy, or outside of what is normal. If people would actually just get back to the basics, do no harm, respect others and their property, etc. we would all be much better off.

Why do we need more money invested into the military? We've got enough nukes to kill everything on the earth, what more do we need? A platoon at every street corner ensuring compliance by the citizens?

Also, you haven't answered a couple of my questions.

What will you do when the politicians tell you to point the gun at your family? or, are you in denial about the fact that it could happen?

Would you be willing to put me in a jail cell for refusing to finance these politicians "wars"? YES or NO? Should I go to jail because I don't want to pay for this nation building and political conflict bs?

Why can't they find voluntary funding for their causes if they're such good causes?

Thank God their retched administration is gone.

You're being blinded by the D vs. R politics. Every administration does the same thing, over and over. You cannot deny it.

 

[wrightme43]

No, I don't have experience in any such regard. I am a veteran, if that's somehow part of the question or comment.

I'm not really sure why you're flipping me off. I was in no way disrespectful of anyone and wasn't and am not out to "argue." Take it easy sport.

Have there not been military building or engineering mos's, such as the seabee's of the Navy? I recall there being engineers on the post I was stationed on. And though I'm not entirely certain of what their relationship is to the active military (though I've seen that they do wear uniforms) what about the corp or engineers?

Thanks for handling this well.

 

[wrightme43]

Why do we need more money invested into the military? Becuase with out it our military will fail. We've got enough nukes to kill everything on the earth, what more do we need? Nukes are a deterant only effective on a sane country or leadership. A platoon at every street corner ensuring compliance by the citizens? That will be resisted by a armed population. Violently resisted if neccesary.

Also, you haven't answered a couple of my questions.

What will you do when the politicians tell you to point the gun at your family? the soldiers in our military are sworn to uphold the constition. or, are you in denial about the fact that it could happen? Could it happen? Of course, what would the results be? Wholsale slaughter on both sides. Back to the only a deterant for a sane leadership or people.

Would you be willing to put me in a jail cell for refusing to finance these politicians "wars"? YES or NO? Yes you should go to jail. Quites simpley you do not get to decide where your tax dollars are spent. Its not your choice. You get to chose your representive in our representive form of government and that is where your say stops, along with mine. Should I go to jail because I don't want to pay for this nation building and political conflict bs? This is the same question as before. Again Yes!

Why can't they find voluntary funding for their causes if they're such good causes? If the red cross or the girl scouts go to war with another country the US as a whole will be held responsible.

I believe all of your questions have been answered.

 

[wrightme43]

Without getting off on a bunch of tangents, here is my take.

The Iraq war was predicated on lies.

1) Hussein was a secular leader not a theocratic one, and therefore was the enemy of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. He is a proven supporter of terrorist bombers, and sent checks to the widows, and famlies of sucidide bombers. Fact.
2) Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11. But the Saudi's probably did. Saudi Government or People of Saudi decent? People of Saudi decent yes. Government No.
3) Hussein did not have WMD. Hans Blix said so before the war and it turn out to be true. We have found mobile bio labs, shells with mustard gas, and several tons of yellowcake uranium. He had purchased the supplies to build centrifuges. So yes he did.
4) There was no yellow cake for Hussein's nuke program, and a CIA agent was outed as revenge in an act of treason. The CIA agent was not outed as a act of treason. The CIA agent was not outed as you say. The only conviction was for obstruction and that only is a case of scemantics. I.E. There was not a conviction. So unless you personally were there and heard it, and then were refused the ability to testify in court, you are using congection, and have zero proof of your statement. None!
Again yes there was yellowcake and we have removed tons of it.
5) Hussein was not attacked to free his people from oppression. That was thrown out there after the occupation started and the previous arguments to justify the attack were proven false. Bush campaigned on not engaging in nation building (bashing Clinton for Bosnia) but fell back on it when his lies were exposed. Nope he was attacked for consistent violation of UN inspection deadlines, and intentional willfull obstruction of those inspection.

The bottom line is that the Iraq occupation was based on lies, resulted in thousands of American service personnel being killed and injured. Killed and displaced God knows how many innocent Iraqis. The lies were used to justify the shredding of our constitutional freedoms enumerated in the Bill of Rights and made America a torture nation just like the enemy we are supposedly fighting against. And to top it off, American Corporations made billions of dollars off of misery and death, and helped bankrupt the treasury in the process to the tune of a trillion dollars. This makes my brain hurt for you.

Bush and Cheney are lying war criminals and unfortunately they will probably get away with it and enjoy the rest of their despicable lives, while millions of innocents suffer or died because of them. This is called Bush Derangement Syndrome and I believe you may be suffering from it.

Thank God their retched administration is gone. All hail the ObamaMessiah

It says the message I entered is to short but its really not.

 

[dako81]

........ the soldiers in our military are sworn to uphold the constition. ....

Supposedly so are all elected officials, judges, etc.

Give me an example where a soldier upheld the US constitution over their orders from their superiors.

I'm learning and I am serious about an example, I haven't come across one yet. I would like to see a case of this happening and what happened to the individual i.e. anything negative, demotion, removal, discharge, etc. or anything at all i.e. they were justified and unquestioned about upholding the US Constitution.