Question Fork feelings

[bryancraftyhands]

For those that recognize me, sorry I haven't been around much lately. I've been having one (insert choice expletive) storm after another and trying to keep up. Bike hasn't been an issue until the past 2 weeks...

I took my bike in for an inspection and was told my head was loose and I have a leaking fork seal.
I ordered seals and a bushing kit just in case. I didn't need the bushing kit though.
I changed the seals using ProMoly leakproof and Bel Ray 5 weight oil. The FSM states 1, but with some of the craters roads I navigate, I thought this may be an improvement, and so far it mostly seems to be. Relevant information, I drained out 14oz straight and added 16 to accommodate any that may have been lost in either the leak or not measurable stuck to parts and lost to cleaning, etc. I suspect this may be really 1 ounce too much, but the bumps that I have hit seem to be more like what I was aiming for in my weight and amount change.
While I had the forks out of the head, I disassembled the head bearings. They were replaced about 3 years ago, with a roller bearing kit. I'm assuming All Balls, but the shop I had put them in for me is not ran by the same people now so I can't ask, but I think that's what he told me he was going to use back when I was discussing the job with him.
I proceeded to clean and re-grease them using Red-n-Tacky, and place them back in their positions and followed the FSM torque to 38ft.lbs, loosen, then torque to 13 with the lower nut in place, then place the washer, upper nut, lock washer, handle bar holder and torqued the top nut to 80ft.lbs.
Now maybe it's just another loose nut behind the handlebars situation, and I'm just not used to everything being tight as it should be, but all week I've been taking it up and down a road I only get to do about 30mph on, and it almost feels like it's swimming so to speak. Going where it wants to slightly and I'm correcting it back and forth much of the time.
I got the front off the ground again today and certainly don't have any play in the head. I don't have a spring scale gauge to check for pulling force before the bars turn, but I don't feel like it's excessive, but then I've been cardio lifting 50lb boxes for 6 hours a day for 3 years. It is certainly not loose feeling and surely not as loose feeling as it was before I worked the bearings. There is also no binding at all.
I then set it back down, got cleaned up and took it for some autobahn highway speeds. Everything felt pretty good. The roads I took were pretty smooth and well paved, so no crater checks, but steering felt fine.
Any insights?

 

[bryancraftyhands]

update with my own insight.
All of the work I did was after a new tire was installed by the shop. I thought I had no reason to check the tire pressure, but I did after a good low lean at low speed slipped over a manhole cover. It was my rear tire that slipped, but I checked both and found my rear 5psi low and my front 10 low. Adjusted and took for a short test and so far I didn't feel the swim.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

I felt that swim feeling again today. Maybe I should go take a new bike on a test ride just to see.

 

[Gary in NJ]

Wheel bearings perhaps.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

Please elaborate. It was not doing this before the work done. While apart, I did re-grease the axle and bearings even though the shop that changed the front tire would have already done so a few weeks ago, theoretically. Torqued the axle and pinch bolt to what the FSM calls for. I don't remember exactly right now, but something like 58 and 17ft/lb. Maybe 68. Spacers are in and on the same sides they were.
I really only feel it at about 30mph and lowet, but still don't like it.
I am wondering if it is possible I have something askew in the alignment of the forks I have the tops of the tubes level with the top of the handle bar mount. I'm not certain if it is possible one leg is trailing the other. If so how to correct. Otherwise, I may have to open the tubes up and verify an even amount of oil in each. Maybe one is riding stiffer than the other. It's about the only thing I can think of that makes sense right now, even though I measured the same for both.

 

[Gary in NJ]

Get the bike on the center stand and put something heavy on the pax seat so the front wheel is off the ground. See if there is any lateral movement at the top or bottom of the wheel. Also, retract the pads (a light twist with a screwdriver works) from the rotor then spin the wheel to make sure it free spins smoothly to a stop. If you have any side to side movement or if the wheel suddenly stops while decelerating, it’s a sign that the bearings need to be replaced.

While you have the wheel off the ground, move the handle bar from side to side in a full swing to ensure that nothing is binding, resulting in non-linear inputs and “strange” handling. A misrouted cable could cause the exact problem you are experiencing. Since you had the front end apart, this is most likely.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

I think I agree that the cable is most likely, but I'll do the bearing check just to be sure. I don't think that's it though, at least not in actual rolling. I really don't think it will move side to side at all, but the thought has crossed my mind after you mentioned it which is why I mentioned the torque in case a loose axle came up allowing the bearings to play.
I'll see what I can investigate this weekend. It was raining this morning so I took my car in. Thiis evening someone side swiped me into a curb and blew out a tire along with causing some denting and knocking my alignment out. Now I have to attend to that too.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

Car is mostly ok. Tires replaced. Fenders need some work, but alignment is good and it is driveable. Even still passed its inspection.
I finally had time to investigate the bike's forks. There is no hint of wheel bearing play, binding or any problem at all with it.
No play in the head bearing still. Better not be since I just redid the grease and torque specs on that.
Which leaves me to either the oil or cables.
The cables are not in the way of the forks reaching end to end or pulling from the other side when turned either way. The only two remotely questionable things I see shouldn't have an effect on steering while the fork is held straight. The only thing I see that looks suspect is the clutch cable at the top end. WWYD?
Let me try to post these pics.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

I checked the oil level today. It was a bit low reading at about 120mm. I attempted to top it up and added too much, so I attempted to bring it back down. I don't have the forks off the bike right now, but reading at the middle of the level line with the forks at their rake I have it at what the FSM calls for. I don't see 15mm low in both forks causing what I was feeling or really having any effect at all. Since they are closed air tight it seems, between the air and oil being compressed, maybe if one was 15mm higher or lower than the other I can see that having the effect. If one or both were 15mm too high, I can see a seal or cap screw O ring popping.
Maybe it really is just another loose nut in the saddle.
Also touch up repainting my tank while I'm at it.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

Who knew? Someone here had to.
I got out for a run this morning. There was significant improvement, enough so that I will probably pull the forks back off, and check and adjust properly in a straight position.
I quote myself:

"I don't see 15mm low in both forks causing what I was feeling or really having any effect at all."

In reality, it makes sense that being high or low would have this effect since gas and liquid compress at different rates. Even two different gases and liquids compress at different rates, water vs. oil, nitrogen vs. carbon dioxide and so on.
My 6th grade science class self is doinking me on the head now.
Such a small amount, yet such a big effect.

 

[Gary in NJ]

Fork oil being 15mm high or low...and/or asymmetrical...should only effect damping (the speed at which the spring seeks it's neutral preloaded condition). Given that the forks are basic damping-rod style; too little oil will result in a fork that blows through it's travel upon application of the brakes, and too much oil will make the bike ride like a jack hammer. I don't see how this would make the bike seek movement from side-to-side.

You mentioned that this started with the new tire...is the direction arrow facing the correct way? Have you done a runout test of the tire? Perhaps it is out of round or has a side-to-side issue from a bead that isn't fully set.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

The tire was on a week or two before I got the seals in to change them. It started after the seal change. Otherwise I good point.
Gas compresses different than oil This is why there is a specific amount called for. Too much oil would cause the ride like a jack hammer effect because the compression is too hard and slow. Too little oil I see causing this swimming effect because now it's compressing too fast and soft. Picture when your shocks leak on a car how they feel with excessive body roll in corners, if you've ever driven one with a set in that bad of shape.
Another scenario is if you have air in your brake lines and how that causes a spongy feeling.
In theory, I had two spongy tubes attached to one wheel. I can see it being a cause and effect.
If you don't believe it, try it and see if you come up with the same feeling.
I poured 14 ounces out and put 16 in thinking I'm accommodating for any loss via the leak and pulling the coated parts out. Then when I consulted the manual which called for a measurement of 134mm from the top, tubes compressed and spring removed. When I checked, I was only at 120mm. This was with the forks still on the bike, so the rake is involved, I brought it up to 134mm where the middle point of the rake and level of the oil is and got this improvement. Sometime this week I'll take them off and do it again proper straight vertical to be exact.

 

[Gary in NJ]

Got ya…so “swimming” means excessive pitch.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

I don't know what to call it. Going at 30mph or slower, it kind of felt like a boat on water, excessive rocking side to side for a land vehicle, so I dubbed it swimming.

 

[bryancraftyhands]

I got to taking the fork tubes off and checking the oil level while held in a vice with a magnetic level attached for vertical and was right on the mark anyway.