MSF Experienced Rider Course - review

[IPilot]

I took the ERC this past summer as well and I found it really like the second day of the basic one as also. There were a lot of things that practicing them with my own bike was really helpful to improve my riding skills. I also recommend taking it every couple of years or so.

 

[cv_rider]

I'm not sure where I got it/when I started doing it, but I ride with two fingers on the brake, too. It may be because I ride like that on my dh/off-road bikes or I may have gotten it from Class.

Having my fingers on the lever like that saved my behind once and that's enough for me to continue doing it. YMMV

It's always seemed desirable to have a couple fingers on the brake at all times - it would certainly reduce the reaction time as you don't have to reach for the lever. I've tried it a few times, but I never feel like I have a good grip on the handlebar when I'm doing that. It's unsettling for me. I can't really hold the throttle well with the pinkie and ring finger (I assume you put middle and index on the brake?).

 

[mstewar1]

It's always seemed desirable to have a couple fingers on the brake at all times - it would certainly reduce the reaction time as you don't have to reach for the lever. I've tried it a few times, but I never feel like I have a good grip on the handlebar when I'm doing that. It's unsettling for me. I can't really hold the throttle well with the pinkie and ring finger (I assume you put middle and index on the brake?).

Yeah, first two fingers are on the brake. I don't really grip the throttle. Just sorta cradle/pinch it between the thumb and forefinger. Pinkie and ring finger are draped across the grip. Again, not really gripping. I find that this is a lot easier on my aging hands when I ride longer distances, too. My hand really almost just lays across the throttle and I roll the throttle on with the inside/meat of the thumb -- kinda hard to explain. I do find that I increase the grip with the ring/pinkie fingers when riding through traffic where I may need to do a quick maneuver. But the first two fingers never leave the lever.

Perhaps I should bust out the camera...

 

[KensFz6]

Seems to me that holding onto the lever with your fingers while just riding is tantamount to riding with 2 feet in your cage.

New drivers might reason that keeping their left foot over the brake pedal would improve reaction time but in reality it just increases the odds of them riding their brakes or braking too abruptly. The same goes for the motorcycle IMO.

I agree with previous posters about not worrying about the 4 finger rule though.

I think it's just recommended for better grip on the lever for weak HD brakes or people who don't have enough dexterity to do tasks without using their whole hand.

 

[wrightme43]

LOL obviously the idea is not to lock up the wheel. LOL Been there did that on a ninja 250 with the craptastic dunrock tires. Left turner decided he could beat me thru a light. Changed his mind leaving just enough room to scoot thru. Somehow kept it up.

Keeping your fingers on the brake is a proven way to reduce reaction time.
55 mph is 80fps. Cut one half of one second off your time appyling the brake and you have a extra 40 feet of stopping distance.
Cut off a quarter second and you have saved 20 feet.
Cut off a 1/8th of a second and you have a extra 10 feet.

I have very good brake control that I aquired by practice and keep that skill alive with practice.

 

[mstewar1]

Seems to me that holding onto the lever with your fingers while just riding is tantamount to riding with 2 feet in your cage.

New drivers might reason that keeping their left foot over the brake pedal would improve reaction time but in reality it just increases the odds of them riding their brakes or braking too abruptly. The same goes for the motorcycle IMO.

I agree with previous posters about not worrying about the 4 finger rule though.

I think it's just recommended for better grip on the lever for weak HD brakes or people who don't have enough dexterity to do tasks without using their whole hand.

Ken, while I get your point and certainly experiences and skills will vary, but I'm definitely not riding the brake. My fingers are just there. Unlike a brake pedal in a car where one would be resting a foot on it and quite possibly have a tendency to relax the foot and allow it to exert pressure -- thus the "ride" -- on a bike, on a brake lever like that, you know when you're pulling. Big difference, in my mind. But certainly, point well taken.

As wrightme adds, it reduces reaction time. I know it works for me and I won't be changing my position. Ymmv...

 

[Maverick]

Proficient Motorcycling says to count \\"one thousand one\\" while progressively increasing braking pressure, and then grab as hard as you want, as the weight is transferred to the front wheel by then. That is good advice. The first time I practiced emergency braking, I grabbed too hard too quick and locked the front wheel for a moment and almost dropped (but was only going 15 mph anyway). But PM has no comments about how many fingers. That's probably bike-specific. Wrightme's comments about 4 fingers being way more than is needed for this bike makes good sense to me. I'm going back to two-fingered.

Front Brake - think of progressive squeeze, harder, harder... as the weight transfers forward... (never grab or stab). You are at the max braking threshold when the front tire is on the virge of locking - rut, rut , rut. If the front tire locks, you will need to ease up a hair (if you can save it). Rear brake - you will also need to ease up on the rear brake as the weight moves forward or you'll lock it. If you lock the rear, you can leave it as it is easily controllable.

The reason for four fingers is that the rider has a better grip on the handle bars and thus better control. This is considered more important than being able to brake a hair faster with the two finger method. There are some bikes (not modern sport bikes) that if you use two fingers the lever will hit your other two fingers and not allow you to get full braking power as you pinch your other two fingers (and likely let up on the lever thus increasing your braking distance).

Personally on a modern sport bike, I don't think there is any reason on the street to cover the front brake with two fingers 100% of the time. If you are in traffic or feel some threat, sure, but otherwise I like all fingers on the bars... you never know when you might hit a pothole or some other object and otherwise need that grip on the bars... weigh the risks and rewards of various methods and use the "tool" that best meets the current situation.

On the track, I cover the front brake with two fingers much more often - trail braking, blipping the throttle while braking etc...

The ERC is on *your* bike and you have coaches pushing you harder and evaluating you and providing valuable feedback. You can not do this on you own as well as in this controlled coarse.

My 2 cents

 

[wrightme43]

Not knocking you at all. Every one is different and does things differently. I always ride with two fingers over the brake lever. Its just how I do it.

 

[mstewar1]

Sorry to the op about the threadjack...my bad. This has turned into the "two fingers on the brake lever?" thread now. Whatever.

Opinions vary. Two or four fingers, t's all good as long as we all stay upright and don't run into sh*t.

What I don't get, since we're threadjacking anyhow, is the squidly-diddleys I see riding around with their left hand on their hip. What is up with this silly poseur-ness? Maverick mentions keeping two hands on the bars, which is something I totally agree with. When I see these guys I just want to ride up next to them and smack the end of their bars to see how badly they poop themselves...

 

[opds9091]

the only thing i can say as 2-4 fingers. I find i use 2 and have the front brake just at the pull point, 2 fingers would be faster the having to putt all 4 on.

 

[cv_rider]

What I don't get, since we're threadjacking anyhow, is the squidly-diddleys I see riding around with their left hand on their hip. What is up with this silly poseur-ness? Maverick mentions keeping two hands on the bars, which is something I totally agree with. When I see these guys I just want to ride up next to them and smack the end of their bars to see how badly they poop themselves...

I've always assumed its due to the sportbike riding position being so uncomfortable. With only one hand on the right bar, you can sit up straight. Or you could get an FZ6...

 

[sideshow_downs]

What I don't get, since we're threadjacking anyhow, is the squidly-diddleys I see riding around with their left hand on their hip. What is up with this silly poseur-ness? Maverick mentions keeping two hands on the bars, which is something I totally agree with. When I see these guys I just want to ride up next to them and smack the end of their bars to see how badly they poop themselves...

riding 500 miles or more you need to sit up and stretch/relax and putting the left hand on the hip during a straight stretch and the sitting up makes an incredible diffrence

 

[mstewar1]

While those are potentially valid points, I don't really think that is all that this is about. It seems much more of a "style" thing. Maybe you guys haven't seen it, I dunno. Where I'm having to stay, in Sacramento, there are tons of kids on sportbikes -- t-shirt, jeans, sneakers, shorty/no gloves, and a helmet (sometimes with g/f on back with no gear either, just a helmet). They just ride around town like this, with their hand on their hip. Everywhere. I doubt that any of these kids have ever put more than 30-50 miles on their bikes at one time. And that would probably be a long day of riding. Yeah, the ergos on their bikes are no doubt uncomfortable for long rides, you're right there cv, but I just don't see them doing that kind of riding.

I'm seriously waiting for the day I see one smack a sizable pothole and get rattled. Maybe then he'll keep both hands on the bars.

I'm probably just gettin' old and cynical and I should stop with the hatin' already. I just have an undeniable, serious dislike for poseurs. I'll shut up now... /rant

 

[CdnMedic]

You guys have me a bit concerned about taking my basic motorcycle course to get my intermediate (M2) license.
All of my riding experience is racing or high speed (had a few 200 km/hr snowmobiles, some race style 4 wheelers and I race motocross on a new yzf250 every weekend).
Because of this background, I have a very attentive active riding style, I'm not afraid to hesitate hitting the gas to get out of a situation if it's the right move.
My biggest issue is how many fingers they want on the levers, I'm used to 2 on the levers for both controls, that's plenty of strength to feather the clutch and enough to modulate the front brake and still lock it up if I have to (yes, sometimes in MX we ride that front brake all the way into the apex to plant us into the ruts!). I do it this way for reaction time plus, I still have 2 fingers and a thumb around the bar to hold on wich is important in the rough terrain.
I'm not looking forward to some guy that took a weekend course to be an instructor trying to change the way I ride because the book says so. I'm experienced, I just don't have a license. I want to go in, show them I can ride and controll the bike and come out with my permit.

 

[SovietRobot]

riding 500 miles or more you need to sit up and stretch/relax and putting the left hand on the hip during a straight stretch and the sitting up makes an incredible diffrence

+1. Also it depends under what circumstance you do this. I find myself doing it on a long straight away with no cars infront of behind me. If you're doing it in stop and go traffic then maybe you have a problem.

 

[blchandl2]

You guys have me a bit concerned about taking my basic motorcycle course to get my intermediate (M2) license.
All of my riding experience is racing or high speed (had a few 200 km/hr snowmobiles, some race style 4 wheelers and I race motocross on a new yzf250 every weekend).
Because of this background, I have a very attentive active riding style, I'm not afraid to hesitate hitting the gas to get out of a situation if it's the right move.
My biggest issue is how many fingers they want on the levers, I'm used to 2 on the levers for both controls, that's plenty of strength to feather the clutch and enough to modulate the front brake and still lock it up if I have to (yes, sometimes in MX we ride that front brake all the way into the apex to plant us into the ruts!). I do it this way for reaction time plus, I still have 2 fingers and a thumb around the bar to hold on wich is important in the rough terrain.
I'm not looking forward to some guy that took a weekend course to be an instructor trying to change the way I ride because the book says so. I'm experienced, I just don't have a license. I want to go in, show them I can ride and controll the bike and come out with my permit.

I am not familiar with the license requirements in Canada. In Indiana, you can get an endorsement by taking the ERC class. This rule was changed a few years ago to get experienced riders who had been riding on beginner's permits for years to get an endorsement. It also created more openings in the BRC for those who have little or no experience and need the basic instruction.

When I am teaching an ERC, I base my coaching on the skill level of the rider. If they are experienced, I do not force them to use four fingers on the controls.

BTW, to become a BRC Instructor I spent eleven, 14 hour days in class with 2-3 hours of homework each night. Add another 3 days to be ERC certified after teaching a minimum of 5 BRC's and taking the ERC. Of course things may be different in Canada.

 

[CdnMedic]

Here, the instructors need to have I beleive 3 years with the full license and then they do about 40 hours for the course. Not saying I won't listen to any advice given, I just have my logical reasons for doing things the way I do them due to my background.